hanswurst Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 (edited) You can add the rest yourself... The Rolex Submariner was introduced at the 1954 Basel Fair. The Submariner was the first truly water resistant watch. That first production model (reference 6204) was water resistant to 200 meters, and immediately became the de facto diver's watch. Not surprisingly, the 1955 Basel Fair saw Submariner clones from leading brands, a trend which has not abated after 51 years! -- the Submariner is the most copied watch. The Submariner has evolved over the years, with many interim model reference numbers, dial variations, and other aspects which make collecting Submariners fun and interesting. Today, in 2005, vintage Rolex Submariners are not only popular, they are also attractive investments. Vintage Rolex Submariners pay historical witness to the evolution of not only dive watches, but to the evolution of Rolex itself and to diving in general. The Rolex Submariner is a special watch, and the popularity of the modern models is overshadowed only by the fascinating world of vintage Submariners. The experimental years 1950-1960. Model references 6200, 6204, 6205, 6536, 6536/1, 6538, 5508, 5510. 6200 Reference 6200 lived only a short life. The watch was produced in 1954 only, and housed the caliber A296. * Launched in 1953. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with an 8mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Submariner not printed on dial. Dial similar to Explorer style dials of same period. Non-Chronometer A296 movement with 18 Jewels. Larger case than the 6204 or 6205. Larger crown marked Brevet. * Updated in 1955. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with an 8mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Submariner printed on dial. Included the Mercedes hands. Non-Chronometer A296 movement with 18 Jewels. Larger case than the 6536 or 6538. Larger crown marked Brevet. 6202 6204 The Rolex 6204 was fitted with a Rolex caliber A296 semi-bubbleback automatic movement and was waterproof to 600 ft. 6204 - Launched in two versions * Launched in 1954. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with a 6mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Submariner printed on dial. Dial revised from 6200. Used the upgraded non-chronometer A260 movement with 18 Jewels. Smaller than the 6200. * Updated in 1954. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with a 6mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Model name "blacked-out." Non-Chronometer A260 movement with 18 Jewels. Smaller than the 6200 6205 * Launched in 1954. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with a 6mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Model name not present on dial. Dial revised from 6200. Used the upgraded A260 movement. Same size as the 6204. Smaller than the 6200 * Updated in 1955. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with 6mm crown. No crown guard however depth rating now printed on dial (white). Model name present on dial. A260 movement. Smaller than the 6200 6536 In 1957, these models gave way to the Submariner models 6538 and 6536/1, which also had the new caliber 1030 movement and a larger case and better crown, which boosted the depth rating to 660 ft for the 6538, but dropped the 6536/1 to 330 ft. * Launched in 1955. Upgrade of the 6205 model. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with the 8mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Submariner printed on dial. First time use of the Mercedes hands. Movement upgraded to the non-chronometer 1030 with 25 Jewels. * Updated in 1956. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with a 8mm crown. No crown guard however depth rating now printed on dial (white). Submariner also printed on dial. Non-Chronometer 1030 movement. First time Bezel contained markers for first 15 minutes. 6538 "James Bond" Reference 6538 was rated water resistant to 660 feet. This watch was the first Submariner to use the "Mercedes" hands and the oversized "Trip Lock" crown, which have been in use ever since. There was also a reference 6536, which looks exactly like the 6538, mechanically and cosmetically, but the 6536 was only rated water restistant to 330 feet. (For collectors, it is exactly this type of variety that makes the Submariner such a collectable model). The 6538 was produced from 1954 -1959 and carried the Rolex caliber 1030; while the reference 6536 was produced from 1955 -1959 and also housed the caliber 1030. These two references are the so-called "James Bond" Submariners. One other note: the 6538 reference had its own evolution, as the production of this model for the first two years was not C.O.S.C. chronometer certified, the last three years of production of this reference did bear the "Officially Certified Chronometer" on its dial. (I believe this was the first Submariner to display this now familiar inscription/certification.). Finally, it's interesting to note that both of the above references shared the caliber 1030, while only the final three years of production of the 6538 were C.O.S.C. certified. This suggests two learning points: first, that the presence or absence of the C.O.S.C. certification in the same caliber does not imply any difference in quality. Second, C.O.S.C. certification does have merit in terms of confirming a caliber's accuracy, but it at least as much a marketing device as anything else, since the 6538 had a higher price than the 6536, when by all appearances the watches are identical. * Launched in 1955. Upgrade of the 6204 model. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with the 6mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Model name present on dial. Used the upgraded A260 movement. * Updated in 1956. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with 8mm crown. No crown guard with depth rating printed on dial (white). Model name also present on dial. Upgraded to the 1030 movement. Case upgraded to same size as the 6200 (larger). * Updated in 1956. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with 8mm crown. No crown guard with depth rating printed on dial (white). Model name also present on dial. 'Officially Certified Chronometer' now painted on dial. 1030 movement. 5508 Reference 5508 appeared about 1957-58, and this watch is actually the reference 6536, but with the new 5508 reference number. This reference number change was made to evolve all Submariners into 55XX reference numbers starting in the late 1950s... which would last through 1990, when the last 55XX models were last produced. Until this point, Submariner dials had what is called "Gilt" printing, which means the color of the text was gold. Furthermore, the dials also had various patterns. Some had the same hour markers in use today, while other had Explorer-style dials with 3-6-9 style dials. Still others had chapter rings around the minute markers, while other dials lacked this chapter ring. The bezel triangle at the 12 o'clock position on watches up until this point were red. Furthermore, the bezels themselves on the preceding Submariners had various gradation patterns. Finally, all preceding models did not have crown guards. The reference 55XX series, which started with the 5508, standardized these previous inconsistencies. All cases now had integral (i.e.: solid metal rising up from the case and NOT soldered on) crown guards. All dials now had white colored printing (with an exception occuring with the later and now infamous "Red" Submariners and "Red" SeaDwellers). All bezels now had one minute gradations from one minute to 15 minutes, and then 5 minute gradations from the 20 minute through the 55 minute positions). All bezel triangles were now silver. # Launched in 1958. Upgrade to the 6536/1 model. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with 6mm crown. No crown guard and depth rating on always printed on dial. Model name printed on dial. Upgraded to the new Chronometer 1530 movement. # Updated in 1964. Luminous markers not enclosed by circular border. 5510 # Launched in 1958. Upgrade to the 6200 model. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with the 8mm crown. No crown guard and depth rating printed on dial. Submariner printed on dial. New Chronometer 1530 movement. # Updated in 1964. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with the 8mm crown. No crown guard. Depth rating printed on dial. Printing on dial changed to white. 5510 Military The Formative years 1960-1980 Model references 5512, 5513, 1680 red, 1680 white. 5512 In 1959 the reference 5512 was introduced. This reference was produced from 1959 through 1978, and with four calibers used over the years: Calibers 1520, 1530, 1560 and 1570. While I do not know if the reference 5512 carried the C.O.S.C. certification for its entire product lifespan, it did have the chronometer certification for many years through the end of production. # Launched in 1959. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Depth rating printed on dial. Chronometer. 'Officially Certified Chronometer' printed on dial. Submariner printed on dial. New 1560 Chronometer movement. # Updated in 1965. Depth rating to 660 ft (200m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Depth rating printed on dial. Superlative added to printing on dial. 5513 The Rolex model 5512, also using the Rolex automatic caliber 1530 and depth rated to 660 ft, quickly replaced the 5510. The 5512 was the watch that gave the Rolex Submariner its most identifiable face, with the crown guards, Mercedes hands and large waterproof case. This model was put up for sale alongside the replacement for the Rolex model 6536, the model 5508 which still did not have crown guards and was only depth rated to 330 ft. When the 5508 was retired, the 5512 was fitted with a chronometer rated Rolex movement, the caliber 1560 and a new model, the reference 5513 was introduced using the venerable Rolex caliber 1530. The Rolex 5512 was marketed until the late 1970’s and the 5513 was finally retired in 1990. # Launched in 1959. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Depth rating printed on dial. Chronometer. 'Officially Certified Chronometer' printed on dial. Submariner printed on dial. New 1560 Chronometer movement. # Updated in 1965. Depth rating to 660 ft (200m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Depth rating printed on dial. Superlative added to printing on dial. 5513 Military The reference 5513 was introduced in 1962, and replaced the reference 5508. The 5513 was produced from 1962 through June or so of 1990, which must be one of the longest continually produced references in Rolex history. The reference 5513 used calibers 1520 and 1530. Curiously, the caliber 1530 was used in both the 5513 and 5512 calibers for a time. The 5512 carried the C.O.S.C. certification while the 5513 using the same caliber did not have the chronometer certification. Today, the 5513 is one of the most collectable Submariners, and while it is still accessably priced, market prices have almost doubled from 2003 to 2005. It is worth noting that none of the Submariners discussed so far had a date complication. 5517 Military Launched in 1971 for the British Marines. Depth rated to 660 ft (200m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Crown with triple-lock. Bezel with 60 minute markers. Soldered strap bars. Large hour and minute hands. Large T printed above depth rating to indicate luminous material as tritium. Large stainless steel case, with brushed case sides, fixed strap bars, screw down Rolex crown, and acrylic crystal. Fitted with the 60 minute marker bezel unique to the military issue Rolex Submariner. Screw case back with military issue markings. Original black dial with luminous dot and baton hour markers, outer minute marks, and signed Rolex Oyster Perpetual, 660ft=200m, Submariner, and Swiss T-25, with a white T in a circle. Original white metal sword hour hand, pencil minute hand, and arrow centre seconds hand. Nickel plated Rolex calibre 1520 movement with hacking seconds (seconds hand stops when the winder is pulled out to allow time synchronisation). The watch is fitted with a NATO-style nylon strap. It is estimated that around 1,250 Rolex Submariner watches (ref. 5513 and 5517) were bought by the British Ministry of Defence and issued up until the late 1970s. Model ref. 5513 1680 1680 red Sub 1680 White In 1965, Rolex introduced the caliber 1565, which was both C.O.S.C. certified and had a date display. In 1971, Rolex iterated the caliber to include hacking (meaning the seconds hand stops when the crown is pulled out for time setting). The 1565 caliber lead to a new model series, the 168X series. Reference 1680 was introduced in 1965 or 1966 and had the chronometer status and a date display. This also introduced the Cyclops date magnifier to the Submariner line. The 1680 also marked the philosophical transition of the Submariner from a pure "tool watch" built for serious divers to also being built and sold as a luxury sports watch. I say this, because the 1680 was the first reference to be sold in a steel and gold version ("two-tone" or "bi-metal") and also in an 18 carat gold model. # Launched in 1966. Depth rated to 660 ft (200m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Depth rating printed on dial. Chronometer. New 1575 Chronometer movement with Date. Raised and flat crystal. Submariner printed in red. # Updated in 1972. Depth rated to 660 ft (200m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Crown with triple-lock. Depth rating printed on dial. Chronometer. 1575 Chronometer movement with Date. Raised and flat crystal. All dial lettering printed in white. The Stable years 1980-to present day Model references 16800, 16610, 14060, 14060M. 16613 Panama Canal 16618 14060 Reference 14060 was introduced in 1989, concurrently with the new Submariner Date 16610, with the new caliber 3000. This watch was produced for 10 years, from 1989 through 1999. It introduced the white gold surrounds to the hour markers, sapphire crystal, and new fast-beat 28,800 BPH movement. The difference between the caliber 3000 as used in the non-date reference 14060 versus the caliber 3135 used in the 16610 Submariner Date is, obviously the lack of date complication and the absence of C.O.S.C. certification. Finally, the reference 14060M, marks the last meaningful upgrade to the Submariner line. The 14060M was introduced to replace the 14060. The meaningful difference being an improved caliber 3130, which features a balance bridge for increased shock protection and improved operating rate (i.e.: better timekeeping) and improved winding system. 16800 Launched in 1982. Depth rated to 1000 ft (300m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Crown with triple-lock. Depth rating printed on dial. Chronometer. New 3085 Chronometer movement with Date. Low-profile sapphire crystal. All dial lettering printed in white. 16800 Tiffany The reference 16800 was introduced in 1977-78. The 16800 introduced caliber 3135 which introduced the quick-set date and a sapphire crystal. Also, the 16800 was now rated from 660 feet to 1000 feet. Sometime around 1985 or 86, white gold surrounds were added to the luminous hour markers. Toward the end of the production run of the 16800s, for only about nine months, Rolex produced a reference 168000 in which the quality of the stainless steel was upgraded from grade 316 to grade 904. Saudi Military 16803 16610 In 1989, the Submariner Date received its last update, and became the reference 16610 (still in use as the current Submariner Date in 2005). The change being the introduction of caliber 3135, which featured a 28,800 BPH rate versus the slower 21,600 BPH used in the caliber 1565. 16610 LV (Lunette Verte) In 2003 or so, reference 16610LV was introduced, but has only cosmetic changes to the Submariner Date -- a green bezel and a "maxi dial" which has larger hour markers. Military Model references A/6538, 5510, 5513, 5513/5517, 5517. Unlike the consumer models, the Royal Navy watches had welded steel bars instead of the spring bars. Also, these watch hands were wider and bolder with a simplified crown. These watches also had engravings on the back for easy identification. Comex Submariners (1) 1970-1973 Early Submariners Ref:-5513 with valve. (2) 1972-1978 Submariners Unique Comex Ref:- 5514 with valve. Rolex COMEX Submariner; reference 5514, bearing the case number 5230XXX and was sold to COMEX in 1977. The 5514 was a COMEX specific watch and not available to the public, it differs from the 5513 in that it has a helium escape valve on the right side of the case, just like the Sea Dweller. The 5514 is the rarest of all Submariner variants, only 154 of them were made and all were sold only to COMEX. The watch also has the matt dial with the COMEX logo in white and the COMEX issue number 768 engraved on the rear of the case. The movement is a 26 jewel cal 1520 which is the chronometer version of the 1530, with Kif flector shock absorbers. (3) 1978-1979 Submariner Ref:- 1680, no valve. (4) 1982-1986 Submariner Sapphire Ref:-16800 no valve with matt or gloss dial. (5) 1986-1997 Submariners Ref:-16610 no valve. Some text stolen from http://www.vintagesubmariner.com/ Edited March 27, 2006 by hanswurst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkatbamna Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Good post. Should be a good reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrgod Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Very nice. This post should be pinned! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBombadil Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Great post! Thanks for sharing this. I will move this to the knowledge base after people get a chance to comment. -TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchwatcher Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 ok hans... but you didn't tell us which one is the BEST sub... just kidding, very cool chronology--big thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanswurst Posted March 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 (edited) ok hans... but you didn't tell us which one is the BEST sub... just kidding, very cool chronology--big thanks! For me it's the 5517 military on a Nato Strip like this one: But who has it to find out, to search you have my young padawan... Thanks guys, I am just trying to give some back for all the things I learned at this (well the old version) forum. Edited March 25, 2006 by hanswurst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcrooz Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 For me it's the 5517 military on a Nato Strip like this one: But who has it to find out, to search you have my young padawan... Thanks guys, I am just trying to give some back for all the things I learned at this (well the old version) forum. That is an excellent thread, sorry for replying to such an old thread (although it will be good for those of you who haven't seen it) but I was searching for more info on the 5517 military. I see that a couple of our dealers stock this, does anyone have any experience with this particular watch? As far as I can see the most pronounced difference is in the size of the crown guards - anything else I should look out for? Thanks guys, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Yes, this is indeed excellent and informative post. Thanks hanswurst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Good stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcrooz Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Please don't forget to post (or PM) if you've purchased a military 5517 from one of our dealers, be very interested to know what your experiences have been... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadog13 Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 very nice post...you made a great work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridnwind Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Fantastic post! Dealers, we need more quality reps of these. Regards, Brad SUB PARADISE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAHLER Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Great work!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrington Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Please don't forget to post (or PM) if you've purchased a military 5517 from one of our dealers, be very interested to know what your experiences have been... This ones from Homer. Mods include:- CG's done, Gen crown and tube, Gen pearl and insert, New hands fitted, Case lugs shaped and aged the case, aged the case back, tightened bezel, fitted gen NATO strap, fitted new domed crystal. Oooooow doesn't she look lovely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shutter_bug Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Very Nice Topic. Interesting and informative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcrooz Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 This ones from Homer. Mods include:- CG's done, Gen crown and tube, Gen pearl and insert, New hands fitted, Case lugs shaped and aged the case, aged the case back, tightened bezel, fitted gen NATO strap, fitted new domed crystal. Oooooow doesn't she look lovely That's a beauty - did you carry out the mods or was it one of our trusted and talented contacts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omd Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Great post! Thanks for sharing this. I will move this to the knowledge base after people get a chance to comment. -TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrington Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 That's a beauty - did you carry out the mods or was it one of our trusted and talented contacts? No. Did it all myself. If you are reasonably handy then don't let anyone fool you into thinking these mods are difficult. Some of them (not all) try to justify the prices they charge by claiming it's really difficult. Apart from the general watch tools that you would need, the most elaborate piece of equipement I have is a Dremel!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcrooz Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 No. Did it all myself. If you are reasonably handy then don't let anyone fool you into thinking these mods are difficult. Some of them (not all) try to justify the prices they charge by claiming it's really difficult. Apart from the general watch tools that you would need, the most elaborate piece of equipement I have is a Dremel!!!!!! Unfortunately I'm not great with intricate detailed jobs - would be a lot of trial and error involved and would probably get through more watches than I'd want before I got good results!! Well done by the way, you did a very good job on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seank1 Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Great post. What a reference tool. Thanks Sean K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Great info. Pin this one! thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher71 Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Those are genuines, yet the mag does not look so big. So maybe the mag on our reps is not that bad? Great info. Pin this one! thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stac Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Outstanding post This post should be mandatory reading for nubbies before they post questions about subs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanswurst Posted May 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2006 (edited) This ones from Homer. Mods include:- CG's done, Gen crown and tube, Gen pearl and insert, New hands fitted, Case lugs shaped and aged the case, aged the case back, tightened bezel, fitted gen NATO strap, fitted new domed crystal. Oooooow doesn't she look lovely Excellent work on the 5517!!! I wish I could do that. I believe I own the same one, but ordered from silixprime. The problem is, that the CGs are much too big and the minute hand is too small. Don't get me wrong, it is a beautiful watch, but these two things are just annoying me. Exactly the problems you were able to fix! Apart from that I love the look and think it is one of the nicest vintage subs available. Thanks for your positive comments guys and please check out the 007 watches post in my signature as well. More is soon to come... Edited May 24, 2006 by hanswurst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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