More guns and watches

[TWP]

I will follow along with the knives as I must bite my tongue before it gets me in trouble

[Guest TTK]

Well...as we've now moved to tools as opposed to weapons....here's my tools of choice.....!

[P4GTR]

See how you did that? Nice going.

The UK, the country I'm living in and was born in, is serving alongside the US in your latest war. We're there to help you. If you'd just fight it yourself, like you claim to do, we'd be in a much better state.

When did the US fight the UK's wars for them? We've been allies since living memory and we've fought and died alongside you for generations. Don't come this World Police [censored] with me.

You'll notice I've not even used the standard Friendly Fire tactic of picking on the US military because it's tragic and I hate picking on people for doing their jobs.

When did this revisionist "fighting your wars for you" [censored] start, anyway? It's both morally and historically inaccurate.

The UK has been the utmost supportive. We should be, and are greatful. I misspoke. Please allow me a quick chance to explain what I meant.

The whole "we own firearms to protect ourselves because we don't expect others to do it for us" comment was aimed towards us as citizens, not as a country in whole. The whole "world police" was not my target point. Where I was going with that was, a lot of people expect their government or police to protect them in a time of imminent danger. I think that is foolish; owning a gun increases the chance of being able to defend yourself, period.

I should've stayed away from politics. I come here to share a hobby, and escape lifes drama, not start it. It scares me how many people are willing to give up their right to own a gun, because they think someone else is going to protect them, if and when sh!t hits the fan.

Edited September 8, 2007 by P4GTR

[Pugwash]

The whole "we own firearms to protect ourselves because we don't expect others to do it for us" comment was aimed towards us as citizens, not as a country in whole. The whole "world police" was not my target point. Where I was going with that was, a lot of people expect their government or police to protect them in a time of imminent danger. I think that is foolish; owning a gun increases the chance of being able to defend yourself, period.

Defend yourself from whom? Fellow armed citizens? You see where I'm going with this, don't you.

[jake48]

Defend yourself from whom? Fellow armed citizens? You see where I'm going with this, don't you.

Pug,

I am sure this would never happen in the UK because nobody ever does drugs in the UK - (being sarcastic). And I assure you this is absolutely true (my brother worked with the victim).

One late evening my brothers co-worker awoke to a crash at the downstairs rear door of his house. (A guy on drugs - methamphetamine - had rummaged the co-workers garage, armed himself with an ax and was smashing down the rear door). Before he could rise out of bed, the drugged out ax man was up the stairs and in the master bedroom swinging the ax at the co-worker. Taking several blows to his head he began his struggle with the methed out ax guy and the fight was on with a large part of his skull split open. He sustained numerous blows to his arms as he tried to fend off the maniac and yelled for his wife to call 911. His wife did so and saw that her husband was loosing the battle. She decided to join in or her husband was going to die. The two fought the ax guy ferociously and were able to push him back out into the hallway.

Once the maniac was in the hallway they slammed the door shut and held it. Now the ax man began slamming the ax into the door and was breaking it down. This is where it gets real scary. As the co-worker and his wife stood holding the door closed, they realized there was nothing between the maniac with the ax and their two daughters who slept in the bedroom down the hallway. The co-worker had to make a decision. Open the door or continue to hold it shut and pray the maniac did not turn his fury towards the children. That is when he came up with plan B.

He had no weapon (GUN) to defend himself with and knew if he opened the door, it would be certain suicide. He told his wife to barricade herself into the room. His plan was to jump from the upstairs window, run to the garage, arm himself with the only weapon he owned (a shovel) and attack the methed out ax man from the rear. As fate would have it, when he jumped he broke his ankle and lay helpless as the images of his entire family being hacked to death ran through his mind. As he drifted in and out of consciousness he heard the sirens of the responding police cars approaching. (he had a caved in skull, several ax blows to his upper body and was bleeding profusely from the ax lacerations sustained to both arms)

Anyway, the drugged out ax dude heard the sirens too and ran from the back door into the darkness of the night. A containment was set up by the police and the maniac was caught several hours later.

My brother's co-worker and his family survived the ordeal and the first thing he did when he was released from the hospital was go buy himself a gun. He has since taken all the necessary gun safety courses and he, his wife and children are all proficient in using a fire arm.

This guy lived in a sleepy beach town on the coast were the average home value is right around $975,000.00 and there is little to no crime - this was not the big bad city of Los Angels and the guy who attacked my brother's co-worker was a total stranger.

Arming yourself from fellow armed citizens? You watch to much TV and you might be confusing the 21st century from the 1800's when six shooters ruled and they were slung from every able bodied mans hip in the wild west.

It's a choice - one you may not agree with and that is your right, as well as it is their right to own a gun. It is not fair to judge other people's choices negatively when you base them on your limited perspective of life and insinuate that to make a choice other than the one YOU deem fit is wrong.

It always amazes me how tolerant and understanding a group of people claim they are until they disagree with your beliefs. Then they usually shout you down and tell you how intolerant YOU are, which is then followed by the inevitable attacking of your intelligence and character as you "just don't understand" What follows next is the complete dismal of you as a viable human being, unless of course you "come around" to their point of view. Then you are allowed back into the club.

What kind of person are you?

Edited September 8, 2007 by jake48

[By-Tor]

I worked as a bouncer for 3 years during my student days (I still do occasional shifts), and I've been threatened with a gun twice. I wasn't alone in either of those situations though... and the other gun turned out to be a replica gun.

I think people (all over) have way too many guns... it's not just the US. 99,9% of the gun owners are responsible people, but as usual it's the 0,1% that f'cks it up for everyone...

[Pugwash]

Arming yourself from fellow armed citizens? You watch to much TV and you might be confusing the 21st century from the 1800's when six shooters ruled and they were slung from every able bodied mans hip in the wild west.

Your axe-wielding junkie was a fellow citizen.

Like I said, I understand the need to arm yourself in the US. What I'm asking you to understand is that you don't need to arm yourself in the UK.

[jake48]

Your axe-wielding junkie was a fellow citizen.

Like I said, I understand the need to arm yourself in the US. What I'm asking you to understand is that you don't need to arm yourself in the UK.

Pug,

That's good to hear, but really, there are no junkies in the UK? My daughter leaves for London next Saturday for her last year of college. Irregardless of what you may think of with regards to the need of arming yourself in the UK, I am going to have a friend of mine who has recently just retired as a Detective Inspector from the Specialist Crime Directorate at New Scotland Yard pick her up from the airport and take her to her flat. Again, you will have to trust me on this one, my buddy (This is him) in London draws a little different conclusion then you do about protecting yourself.

Oh and I did a quick search for the story on my brother's co-worker (Here it is)

Edited September 8, 2007 by jake48

[Pugwash]

That's good to hear, but really, there are no junkies in the UK?

Sure there are, but they're not armed with guns.

Firearm offences do exist in the UK, but they're rare and restricted to very specific regions of large cities.

[jake48]

Sure there are, but they're not armed with guns.

Firearm offences do exist in the UK, but they're rare and restricted to very specific regions of large cities.

I see your point, however, my point was that for the victim's to be armed with a gun it would have been a good thing and the junkie was armed with an AX not a gun!

Wait, is that AXE? Do you know how to make the spell check work? I am getting tired of going back and trying to fix my d@mn spelling?

Edited September 8, 2007 by jake48

[Pugwash]

I see your point, however, my point was that for the victim's to be armed with a gun it would have been a good thing and the junkie was armed with an AX not a gun!

Wait, is that AXE? Do you know how to make the spell check work? I am getting tired of going back and trying to fix my d@mn spelling?

I use the spell checker in Firefox set to English as opposed to Webster's English.

Anyway, yes, some people will just go mad with axes. It happens and it's better that they don't go mad with guns. Sure, your brother's co-worker was lucky to have survived, but would a gun have made a difference? There's no simple way of looking at it. He's not dead, but if he had a gun, someone would be. Like I said, sometimes people will just go mad with axes. I'd rather they went on an axe rampage than a shooting rampage, no?

[jake48]

I use the spell checker in Firefox set to English as opposed to Webster's English.

Anyway, yes, some people will just go mad with axes. It happens and it's better that they don't go mad with guns. Sure, your brother's co-worker was lucky to have survived, but would a gun have made a difference? There's no simple way of looking at it. He's not dead, but if he had a gun, someone would be. Like I said, sometimes people will just go mad with axes. I'd rather they went on an axe rampage than a shooting rampage, no?

Agreed on the axe man on a rampage vs the gun man on a rampage, but as far as I see it, I personally would rather have a dead man in my house that attacked me or my family becuase I shot him than a live one that might escape to do it again.

And it's not that I sit around talking to my gun hoping I can use it. Believe me, it is the last thing I want to do! But if someone puts me in the position of a "it is me or them", trust me, I have the confidence that it will be them every time.

And believe me, if you were in a situation of "me or them", you would want me to be there and I would become your reeeeeally good buddy real fast

[Pugwash]

And believe me, if you were in a situation of "me or them", you would want me to be there and I would become your reeeeeally good buddy real fast

Sure, but anyone invading my home is not going to have a firearm and I have the advantage of home ground and a sword.

[ryyannon]

Jake, what you don't get is that bad stuff never happens in the UK.

Unlike the U.S., there's no need for self-defence: even the Bobbies are unarmed!

Your experience and point of view is clearly the result of the unfortunate effects of living in an environment of ceaseless criminal violence: it's erroneous to imagine that the rest of the world is in any way similar.

http://www.murderuk.com/index.html

I urge you to get rid of any guns you might own and start sleeping with a sword under your pillow: we'll all sleep better for it.

[jake48]

Sure, but anyone invading my home is not going to have a firearm and I have the advantage of home ground and a sword.

I guess it would go something like this in Pugs house -

Now my version of how it's done MY WAY

Edited September 9, 2007 by jake48

[ryyannon]

No need for for a gun, sword or whatever: Pug would just beat any intruder senseless with one of his monstrously oversized watches.

[jake48]

No need for for a gun, sword or whatever: Pug would just beat any intruder senseless with one of his monstrously oversized watches.

And then take some really cool pictures of whole thing

[ryyannon]

And then take some really cool pictures of whole thing

Guns and violence everywhere you look and not a ripped-off fake watch in sight.

We Americans will just never understand what it means to be civilized...

(sighs dispiritedly)

[Guest TTK]

Pug would just beat any intruder senseless with one of his monstrously oversized watches.

Whereas you would anaesthetise him with your monstrously undersized wit......

[ryyannon]

Whereas you would anaesthetise him with your monstrously undersized wit......

Andropause must be a real b.i.t.c.h. for you.

So much gracelessness, so little grace.

/undersized wit: off.

[Pugwash]

Jake, what you don't get is that bad stuff never happens in the UK.

[...]

http://www.murderuk.com/index.html

Couldn't you even find a link that was useful?

Here's the sort of data you're looking for:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...ders-per-capita

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/153988.stm

Yes, bad stuff happens the world over. No, you don't need to wrap your kids in cotton wool if you're shipping them to the UK. They're safer in the UK than they are in the US and they're safer in the US than they are in Colombia.

[World Traveller]

Why not?

I know 100% for sure I will never ever need a Gun. No armed invaders will ever try to force their ways into my house. It'll never happen and I'm so unbelievably certain of that it's not even funny.

I'll never be mugged at gunpoint either and I know that carrying a knife will get me into more trouble than it could ever get me out of.

I like being in a country where the likelihood of being shot is so minuscule that it's close as damnit zero.

If I thought we could retain this while having firearms freely available, I'd be all for them being sold in Asda or Tesco. As it is, I like things the way they are.

In the US, you need guns because you've got guns. I understand that. All I ask is that you stop thinking you're superior because of it. Having the right to bear arms doesn't make you any better than any other country.

Oh really? What is this then about a 11 year old boy shot to death recently.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/08/23...reut/index.html

England has worst crime rate in world

In the capital alone this year, 18 young people have been slain — 11 of them stabbed and seven shot. James Andre Smartt-Ford, 16, was at an ice rink when he was shot dead Feb. 3. Three days later, 15-year-old Michael Dosunmu was killed by gunmen who broke into his family home.

Government figures released this month said the number of youths prosecuted for firearms offenses increased 20 percent over the past five years.

Many people have erroneous assumptions based on what their media tells them to think...hey sorry the average American has it a lot better than you think.

[World Traveller]

Like I said, I understand the need to arm yourself in the US. What I'm asking you to understand is that you don't need to arm yourself in the UK.

Why do you have this pre-occupation with talking about USA like it is some crime infested hellhole? Americans are proud of our country, even with its failings. Have you ever been to USA? Did you feel afraid the whole time? Were you affected by crime? Did you feel in danger visiting our amazing parks in the west, the rocky mountains, shopping on fifth avenue, strolling the beautiful beaches of North Carolina, the clear warm water of Florida...the ski slopes of Colorado..seeing shows in Vegas.

Before you are so quick to be condescending toward Americans let me remind you that you live in a country with a disintegrating culture and radical Islamist homegrown terrorist threat. You also have plenty of regular criminals too, my friend lived in London for a year and was robbed up by criminals there. He lived in DC and LA his whole life and never had any problem with crime.

Why are so many native born British leaving UK to work and live abroad? Why is this Exodus taking place?

[ryyannon]

Couldn't you even find a link that was useful?

Sorry Pug, but when I saw 'Cannibals' in the list, I lost all self-control.

As your friend TTK

keeps reminding us, nobody's perfect.

[Pugwash]

Oh really? What is this then about a 11 year old boy shot to death recently.

[...]

Many people have erroneous assumptions based on what their media tells them to think...

Um, hang on. You point at the media and then tell me to disregard the media?

One dead kid is a tragedy. Thousands are a statistic. The sheer unadulterated media shitstorm over a kid that's been shot should show you exactly how rare and tragic this kind of thing is.

As for the telegraph, the source is important. "The survey, which is likely to prove embarrassing to David Blunkett, the Home Secretary" is published in the opposition party's newspaper five years ago and doesn't seem to have much supporting evidence. Putting your feet on train seats counts towards the crime statistics here.