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Why RWI has removed Josh and Andrew as dealers


seanf

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My feeling is that if any dealer is trying to price fix banning them from the boards is the correct thing to do. However something like this needs to be done with a level professionalism which would entail showing everyone exactly what evidence the ban is based upon. I have looked at most of the posts so far but I am not seeing the exact posts or coorespondance that has led to the ban. Can the admin please post the evidence they have word for word so everyone can assess its merit? The other side of the coin is......does the board have a written policy regarding what dealers can or cannot do? Is there a wriitten policy covering things like price fixing as something that would cause a dealer to be banned? If nothing like this exists then one should be developed. Taking this one step further IF a policy covering price fixing does not exisit then we are banning dealers who have not done anything against the rules! Does a rules of conduct covering dealers actions exisit?

The problem is that it goes much further than this. Intimidating dealers to change prices is not accepted behaviour. I do not know of any policy that covers this, I feel it is more of an unwritten code, that dealers and members are expected to abide by.

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I am not taking anyones side here BUT......if we are going to hold dealers accountable for infractions then we need a written policy that outlines what is considered good and bad business behavior. If there are no rules then we are getting what we asked for. That being said....what are the rules?

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a lie always comes out.

Its about time someone took care of those cartel guys. All they care was money, the good of the customer was the last of their interest.

I had one expierience with Andrew and the only thing that was a nice memory was the good watch he delievered. Nothing more.

Different dealer were far more better.

Cheers,

Kuba

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All the threads are there to read. I'm sure the admin doesn't want this forum filled up with duplicates. When it comes to ascertaining someone's intentions I think the most imposrtant thing you can do is analyze their behavior and responses. One of the things I pointed out over there and will here is this. Andrew was contacted by email by the admin over there and was presented with these allegations. He did not repsond to their inqquiries. When it was finally posted on the forum his first response was this.

trustywatchguy wrote:

Allegations? I havent been surfing the boards...Apologies.

Andrew

THAT set the tone for the rest of the thread. Later Andrew even claimed he was just a sales rep not a dealer. His responses got downright silly. You make of that what you will but I think that says quite a bit.

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My feeling is that if any dealer is trying to price fix banning them from the boards is the correct thing to do. However something like this needs to be done with a level professionalism which would entail showing everyone exactly what evidence the ban is based upon. I have looked at most of the posts so far but I am not seeing the exact posts or coorespondance that has led to the ban. Can the admin please post the evidence they have word for word so everyone can assess its merit? The other side of the coin is......does the board have a written policy regarding what dealers can or cannot do? Is there a wriitten policy covering things like price fixing as something that would cause a dealer to be banned? If nothing like this exists then one should be developed. Taking this one step further IF a policy covering price fixing does not exisit then we are banning dealers who have not done anything against the rules! Does a rules of conduct covering dealers actions exisit?

Sorry to confuse you mate but were debating somthing that for the present is happening on another board. Not shure if your aware of that or not. you can find the main thread strarting HERE

with the evidence on THIS page.

@pug: I still can not see how Andrew could refute this even if it is untrue. Even a total ar)e hole deserves a fair trial before a first class hanging.

A writen policy on dealer behavior is a damn good idea IMO. It still leaves the problem of presenting evidence that is irifutable by any real standered. Emails or PMs especialy from a somewhat new dealer are just to easy to fake. Probly not in this case but still questionable. And in fact I intended to make use of our new friend Hont in the near future but dought I will ever use Andrew regardles of my playing devils advocate on his behalf not beacuse of this but beacuse of the above mentioned tantruns when things go wrong. Josh I will continue to use as long as He continues to do the right thing by me. Prob not as much as I would without the whole cartel thing tho.

Regards,

Col.

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Hmmm......I am of 2 minds on this. On the 1 hand, the sometimes questionable business practices employed by the Josh/Andrew have been well known to many members for a long time. Some have simply stopped dealing with this vendor altogether & with good reason. Price-fixing & strong-arm tactics have no place on a site that provides collectors with a gene pool consisting of 13,000+ always-hungry buyers.

On the other hand, I have fond the Josh/Andrew to be 1 of the best collectors in terms of prompt responses & equally prompt shipments. The 1 time I had a defective watch, an exchange was handled quickly, efficiently & the replacement arrived in very short order. I would also credit the Josh/Andrew with providing members (at least those who have been around for awhile) with reasonable buying advice. More than once, I have been urged not to buy a particular rep from this collector because the collector felt I would not be happy with it, even though it would cause him to lose a sale.

It is too bad that the Josh/Andrew's silence left the RWI staff no other choice than to do what they did. Hopefully, the Josh/Andrew will be able to address their concerns in a timely & mutually agreeable manner. I think it would be a shame to lose this collector.

Dude, WHAT THE HELL MAN? They PRESSURED other dealers and THREATENED them to raise prices. What more do you want?? If Andrew starts molesting children are you ALSO gonna say "well, he has always been this nice guy and he was always nice to me and he helped me building my shed, so I hope this issue will be adressed and resolved. He's a nice guy!!1111!!!"

Its people like YOU who just WANT to get fcuked over!

Edited by slay
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There areas are still on the board, arent they? TrustyWatchGuy and Jos Nana?

Ive had good experience with Andrew however this price fixing must be bad for the other dealers. Anyone here still going to buy from Andrew after this? I personally still might to be honest.

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I put the topic back on RepGeek, hope to hear why it was removed....

Personally I have found Andrew to be one of the better dealers, great service,quick and prompt communication,delivering what was promised, minor issues are being solved(damaged dial and lugscrews)

Trusted....yeah I think so....keeping his word, delivering as discussed....

I would like to see evidence of this...If true i understand the step RWI took...and I feel sorry for us all

As you all know every dealers pays a fee to be permitted to do business on the forum.

It's a game like all business, we as buyers want to get the lowest prices, the dealers want the most what they can get....

Look at the oilcompanies, energycompanies,carmanufacturers, every business is looking for the most profit, any way they can get that is granted...

FYI:........Your 2nd post were relegated to the Off-Topic forum after a couple of pages and now is locked and got dumped in the Recycle Bin over there.... ;)

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My feeling is that if any dealer is trying to price fix banning them from the boards is the correct thing to do. However something like this needs to be done with a level professionalism which would entail showing everyone exactly what evidence the ban is based upon. I have looked at most of the posts so far but I am not seeing the exact posts or coorespondance that has led to the ban. Can the admin please post the evidence they have word for word so everyone can assess its merit? The other side of the coin is......does the board have a written policy regarding what dealers can or cannot do? Is there a wriitten policy covering things like price fixing as something that would cause a dealer to be banned? If nothing like this exists then one should be developed. Taking this one step further IF a policy covering price fixing does not exisit then we are banning dealers who have not done anything against the rules! Does a rules of conduct covering dealers actions exisit?

Sorry to confuse you mate but were debating somthing that for the present is happening on another board. Not shure if your aware of that or not. you can find the main thread strarting HERE

with the evidence on THIS page.

@pug: I still can not see how Andrew could refute this even if it is untrue. Even a total ar)e hole deserves a fair trial before a first class hanging.

A writen policy on dealer behavior is a damn good idea IMO. It still leaves the problem of presenting evidence that is irifutable by any real standered. Emails or PMs especialy from a somewhat new dealer are just to easy to fake. Probly not in this case but still questionable. And in fact I intended to make use of our new friend Hont in the near future but dought I will ever use Andrew regardles of my playing devils advocate on his behalf not beacuse of this but beacuse of the above mentioned tantruns when things go wrong. Josh I will continue to use as long as He continues to do the right thing by me. Prob not as much as I would without the whole cartel thing tho.

Regards,

Col.

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Excuse my ignorance...I still do not see any evidence that Andrew cooerced a dealer to keep prices high. The page that was posted showed coorespondance between Andrew and someone wanting to buy 10 AP Roo's but its unclear exactly what is going on here. First a price of 508 is mentioned then Andrew says he wants 600? I have gone through most of the pages in the thread on the other board but still dont see the actual evidence. Again I am not taking sides just want to know exactly what has been shown that tells everyone that Andrew is threatning a dealer so as to keep prices high.

The other thing to consider is that price fixing was common in the US until stiff laws and penalties were enacted to prevent it from happening. Once again I say that if there is not a policy in place that is agreed to by the dealers before they are allowed to be listed as a "respected" dealer we only have ourselves to blame. The rep trade is an illegal activity and we all have to assume they will not prescribe to common sence reasoning and typical business laws. If we want this kind of thing to not take place (or at least make respected dealers wary of leaving a paper trail!) there needs to be a written policy that covers not only this area but all areas of dealing with board members who use these forums to decide which watches to buy and who to buy from. Price should be set by the market and not buy dealers banding together to set prices. Of course having a policy that is agreed to by respected dealers before they become respected dealers does not mean infractions wont occur. Dealers though will KNOW that if evidence is uncovered they are GONE and that is the type of check and balance that is required and needed.

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Like Dani said, it was a no-brainer that within minutes of this threat, every single member who had ever bought a watch from the cartel and got it delivered without problems would come to their defense. And I especially love it when members with less than 50 posts and less than six months on their membership come telling us what this forum is all about. I have bought from Andrew too, got my merchandise and had a pleasant shopping experience. So far so good.

But you people need to understand that this is illegal merchandise we're dealing with and because of that, no one is going to help you in case of trouble but the likes of RWG, RWI etc. The forums are your last and only line of defense, making sure that you are not being completely ripped off. A lot of you have come here after paying a fortune for some "Super, Swiss grade AAA+" sub that was a real POS. Here, members help other members and the admin helps the members and we all help one another not go get ripped off. That includes to take action - even against dealers - if they break the rules (of what is decent business behavior). In the rep world, no government antitrust agency is going to come to the rescue. The only way to say "No, we don't want this!" with some chance for success is the combined force of the members of the rep forums. Since the Darkside was even linked to on the cartel websites, I am sure that admin over there did not shoot from the hip in this issue. They thought long and hard before taking this step but the rep forum where not created by dealers as a sales platform but by rep and watch enthusiasts in a effort to share knowledge and provide guidance in an illegal environment.

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Let me weigh in with another angle here guys. I have never really looked at the price issue as I guess I have always felt the 1:1 watches were always priced fair - even at the so called inflated prices. No flames please - just my opinion. Anyway, I also have opinions about the admin at RWI which I will keep to myself so I am not going to play judge or jury as to whether what happened to Josh and Andrew was fair and I really don't care. For the record I also happen to like Josh in particular a lot, but trust me, if he didn't service me or give me great products for what I think is a fair price that love would change. Same goes for AD's or whoever else. Just business. I have no interest in defending him though and that is not the purpose of this post, so again, no flames about who we like as dealer's please. Let's not beat that horse anymore...

Anyway, I will say that banning them was pointless as it won't hurt their business and from another angle it may do more harm than good for many of you who don't buy from them. One thing that never really got discussed was their motivation related to the so called price fixing and exclusivity. Most all of the best replicas made today are born out of the 1:1 projects which are the brainchild of Josh and Andrew. The GMTIIc is a great example. They purchase a genuine watch and make a deal with a factory to have a stake in the project. The factory also knows that they are the highest volume dealers so it is a marriage made in heaven. At the end of the day it is all about whether he factory is covering the huge equipment costs place up front which is required to make these creations. We are talking about dozens of half million dollar CNC machines here guys and the costs are astronomical. If they can demonstrate the abilty to partner up with them on the watch and move the majority of a 1000 piece run wholesale it is game over. Just trying to play devil's advocate mostly but you need top consider that all it would take is a meeting with the factory and some wholesale pre-sales and now they have control of the entire market for any 1:1 project they finance. Price fixing (or setting)? You bet. Please don't take this the wrong way guys, but if I was those guys I would make my deal with the factory on those watches exclusive and sell every one of them for $700. And the market is there. We all have to be careful of being "myopic" about replicas on these boards. I mean, we are the "in crowd" and as a result we pay less at the retail level than 99% of the replica watch market. I think there are many here that take that for granted and think that these are retail prices. They are not. At $400 for one of these pieces you are really paying wholesale. The end of the chain for these watches is a $1000+ price point. Anyone who found there way here from Ideal Watches or somewhere knows that. In any market there are always different price levels to pay the middles. It is unavoidable. Just because you are buying as close to "direct" as possible, don't discount that these watches are extremely expensive to make in terms of front money and those in control of that are going to want to get payed a LOT for revolutionizing the industry. Whether you like him or not, Josh has and is continuing to contribute to that with these projects. When you have a product as blindingly good as these latest creations there is going to be major money invloved and positioning for a monopoly if you want to call it that. But if it is his project, why shouldn't he control it? Price setting is not price fixing. Everyone of us here would try to make as much money as we could too if it were our deal. I say good for him. I wouldn't be surprised to see him pull the ropes in and make his 1:1 exclusive at the retail level real soon. Then those watches are going to cost a lot more than $400. And if the smaller dealers want in they can do the same by financing their own watch projects with buying the gen and some equipment and partnering with the factories in the same way. More power to them if they can. As for the banning I'm sure not many on any of the boards could care less and neither do they. I'm sure RWI thinks they did the community a favor. I think they are gravely mistaken and it may have just shown Josh and Andrew that they need to take steps to lock these projects up even tighter and seek more and more distribution to higher paying customers instead of dicking around with one lots from these boards. If I were them I would rather leave all the boards and sell 30 watches to Blowmereplica.com for $400 who in turn sells them for $1200. They won't be complaining - especially if they can't get the watch anywhere else. And they don't have to service them or eat shipping because a bezel is a millimeter off. That has just got to suck, no? We all better get ready because this will be the end result. I'm sure in the future more dealers will rise to power and do projects with factories individually just as they have if they have the dough. Josh and Andrew are just the first in line and the most heeled up to do so right now. In the future, you are going to see that not every watch will be available from every dealer and as a result the prices will be higher. This is all just standard industrial revolution stuff and is exactly as it should be. No different that what happened with textiles in Europe long ago when they had their IR. Anyway, take it as you like. Just presenting another way of looking at the big picture...

.02

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I agree With you Andrew And Josh is one of the most honest dealer when they deal with they customer, not only they do prompt reply, and they take all my question/problem and answer it in a proper manner.

I don't care how Josh and Andrew run his business and how unethical they are to their small competition, As long as Andrew/Josh always do the right thing to the customer, I'm always gonna support them and keep on buying from them, There are no BUSINESS IN THIS WORLD THAT IS ETHICAL. And especially in CHINA, I'm very surprise that there is an honest Seller in China that selling product in the internet, regarding that they are so much scammer in china.

And before judging people ethic look at yourself in the mirror! No one in this world is PERFECT

How on earth is attempting to force dealers with lower prices on certain reps to raise the prices "doing the right thing to the customer"?

That is exactly what happened here. "Raise your prices on <insert model here> or else the factory isn't going to sell to you anymore." That type of activity only hurts *us*, the consumers.

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Like Dani said, it was a no-brainer that within minutes of this threat, every single member who had ever bought a watch from the cartel and got it delivered without problems would come to their defense. And I especially love it when members with less than 50 posts and less than six months on their membership come telling us what this forum is all about. I have bought from Andrew too, got my merchandise and had a pleasant shopping experience. So far so good.

But you people need to understand that this is illegal merchandise we're dealing with and because of that, no one is going to help you in case of trouble but the likes of RWG, RWI etc. The forums are your last and only line of defense, making sure that you are not being completely ripped off. A lot of you have come here after paying a fortune for some "Super, Swiss grade AAA+" sub that was a real POS. Here, members help other members and the admin helps the members and we all help one another not go get ripped off. That includes to take action - even against dealers - if they break the rules (of what is decent business behavior). In the rep world, no government antitrust agency is going to come to the rescue. The only way to say "No, we don't want this!" with some chance for success is the combined force of the members of the rep forums. Since the Darkside was even linked to on the cartel websites, I am sure that admin over there did not shoot from the hip in this issue. They thought long and hard before taking this step but the rep forum where not created by dealers as a sales platform but by rep and watch enthusiasts in a effort to share knowledge and provide guidance in an illegal environment.

Don't agree on the first part Chub, as all members with bad experiences vent their stories , the ones with good experiences do too..

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How on earth is attempting to force dealers with lower prices on certain reps to raise the prices "doing the right thing to the customer"?

That is exactly what happened here. "Raise your prices on <insert model here> or else the factory isn't going to sell to you anymore." That type of activity only hurts *us*, the consumers.

Well put.

Got to look out for #1, that is what they are trying to do.

I am #1 in my book.

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An e-mail exchange was posted between hont and Andrew where hont gave Andrew his phone number, thinking it was a legitimate... the phone call that resulted, and the attempts by Andrew thereafter are part of the reasons...

Andrew flew into GZ on the 21st or 22nd to visit the Skyland maker and attempt to restrict hont from purchasing... this was because hont had it priced so low...

There is other evidence in existence... but here's the rub... these people have shared this info with the admin team with the assurance that it would be held in private... why? because they have to live in china and specifically, gz, and therefore they could potentially be in danger...

So, in the end, most of the evidence will not be seen by the public as some of the players in this drama fear coming forward... the admin team of RWI must be trusted that we have made a decision based on all of the evidence presented to us...

On a sidenote, I have no doubt that if you order from Andrew and Josh that you will get your watch... and maybe the price you pay is of no great consequence to you... this, like most of you, is just pocket money for me...

A lot of this has to do with respect... and respect is priceless...

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Guest carlsbadrolex

First and foremost, as someone who knows LOS personally... If he says this decision was made after deep discussion by those involved and was made for the good of the RWI community, THEN THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

If he states that a certain amount of the "evidence" that skeptical parties need is being withheld for a good reason, THATS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

If he tells me that pigs can fly, and Im one sexxxy [censored], well once again THATS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

What I think some fail to understand is that although a "community" requires a certain amount of political correctness and judicial process... It is still a privately owned entity and in the end, the owner/admin team may do what ever they want with it. I spoke to T (Admin) on the tele yesterday and explained to him that I could never again be part of a forum admin team. WHY you ask??? Because as some know, I have a disposition to act first and think later. I have been known to flip the switch and turn an entire forum off. When people didnt play nice, I put EVERYONE on a time out.

I trust that a great deal of thought and discussion went in to this decision. What motivation could a replica watch related site possibly have for removing two of the biggest dealers (If not the two biggest)? It seems to me that at some point they must have discussed the harm that might be done to their community after doing this... And remember, we jokingly (or not jokingly) call them the Cartel for a reason...

LOS, I appreciate your coming over here and trying to appease the populous. But as in all things, opinions differ and you cant make nearly everyone happy!

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