the window god Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 I'm not here to defend wm9/George. Personally I think there's no excuse for false advertisement. Being as old as I am, I really believe it's not always black and white though. George doesn't deserve to be labeled a scammer or bad guy. Let's not talk about morals here. Simple questions: Where else can you buy his watch? What is a better sub out there? By yelling and screaming "wm9 is a scammer", scaring people from buying from them, what good are you doing for this community? My point is don't use the black and white approach with wm9. Give them a chance. I think they are improving in terms of business practise. Give yourself a chance so you can get the best rollie reps. My communication with him shows he's a nice guy, a fair supplier, and a very serious rep maker. His stuff is good and you can't get it anywhere. Let me tell you a sad truth, maybe some self-righteous bunch will applaud, the wm9 v2 TT sub is indefinitely ON HOLD. To me it's more like KILLED, because of the screaming and yelling. Do wm9 lose or do we TT sub lover lose? Are you happy now? You know when I saw the description of the wm9 tt sub what i did? I said "yeah right, solid gold for this price, haha". I didn't buy the v1 not for the reason of gold used but rather I think it's not good enough on all the things I care. I just assumed it's gold wrapped or gold plated all around and that is good enough for me. I'm being realistic. I don't need to run extensive test to prove or disprove the claim. That was just dumb whoever did it. Maybe some people just enjoy witch-hunting. Let's give this a break already. All I care is wm9 will bring the TT sub back in 18k wrapped gold on some gold color alloy like the noob tt sub. Anybody wants solid-gold, let me tell you, "FORGET IT". -bk Thank you BK, as always you are right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 I may not know much about George/WM9 (which is the precise reason why I am now procuring, or rather pre-ordering the SD thru bklm1234), but from all the information available on here about the quality of their YMs & Subs, i think George/WM9 are moving in the right direction. If only life was as simple as labelling people as scammers, IMHO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Fleischer Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 wow- i need gold glasses after reading all this. i have several TT rollies including some really nice old TW Best and a BK TT sub. i know they're not solid gold for $400 or whatever. my issue lately with WM9 (and i have a V1 version sub from PT)is about the mov't! the new YM is alot of $$- i'd like to know if the the mov't is copy or real eta. i can buy a real Hamilton chrono with Valjoux 7750 for less than the YM. i would at least expect a real'swiss eta' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
involt Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 (edited) I must be a really stupid man, and not clever as lots of people are, because I can't understand some basic concepts that most of you guys are quite clear about. You know well the exact composition of the watch that WM9 (or anybody else, for that matter) sells, regardless of his statements, whereas I need to test the item in order to establish as things are. And I couldn't realize yet if it's lack of intelligence or of some parapsychological talent for my part. You know well that when WM9 writes on his website "18K White gold 200 micron plated on 316L stainless steel watchcase" (ROLEX DATEJUST 16234) he's telling the truth whereas when he replies "The gold part on the 2 tone Submariner 16613 is made of real 18k yellow gold, not wrapped or plated" to a straight question he's lying; I'm in need of a check. You know well that a watch that costs about 600$, even if similar to a 300$ one, cannot have solid gold parts. And you know this with no need of any calculation, any rationale, only due to some sort of inborn knowledge, whereas I'm compelled to calculate weights and price (as this thread was trigged off by some observation I posted on the WM9 forum, it would be a good rule reading before posting, as it isn't something to be ashamed of, or a masculinity diminution - I'm conscious that my English is poor, but the Google translator doesn't run into particular difficulties when translate my posts, so I'm pretty sure that understanding what I say is as a piece of cake for you). But all the more amazing is the fact that at very end it turns out that it's ridiculous ("...haha"; not "it isn't true in the specific case", but "yeah right, solid gold for this price, haha"), my demonstration notwithstanding. You know all this very well, with no need of clues. On the other hand, if someone explicitly declares that the golden parts aren't in solid, real, gold, this kills the Sub TT production (or, better, its distribution). The simply action of saying what everybody already knew kills the Submariner; hence, the selling of the watch is entirely based upon the hypocrisy. When I was a child, someone taught me that hypocrisy is a bad quality, not a good one. But for you it seems to be a merit. Or maybe have I misunderstood the teaching due to my stupidity? Because it seems that you, clever guys, think of saying something and doing the opposite as normality. If someone claims to sell an Aston Martin, then send me a lemon I think I've been cheated. You find it normal, because the price was too low for an Aston Martin. Maybe you even happily sit on the lemon trying to drive it. No matter what the seller says, you watch the price and know well what you'll get. You're very clever and I'm a fool. Too much brains difference. I have to (dumbly) measure, weigh, check, verify in order to obtain half a knowledge that you'll have always had from birth. And, anyway, I won't ever get the hypocrisy, that is a fundamental part of the whole line of reasoning. But I'm not the only stupid in the world. styler is another stupid, that tries to save the world. But maybe saving the world wasn't exactly his intention; I guess that he only wanted to better it a bit, making it less crappy. Obviously, he's wrong; we all deserve to live in this crappy world. Don't you presume to try to change it, please. Happy new year Edited January 1, 2009 by involt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 @involt... although I would have used a different wording, I can not agree more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 @involt - this is exactly the type of thinking that should prevail but doesn't. I have ranted similarly on another tangent about those who are certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt that replica watch makers are above making replica watch movements. I was one of the first to ever make that arguement and was ridiculed and now of course it is a known fact that ETA movements have been repped. But even though that has been discovered, a new dispute will start because rep factory is not yet known to have repped another ETA movement or someone says this ETA in this watch is gen (even though that could be just one case) but yet, and so...it starts all over again. It is as you say, in the face of certain uncertainty, some will still be certain beyond a shadow of a doubt. I just don't get it. The best truth is usually to be found in the economic corner of analysis. Everything leads to the money. If looking for an answer to any uncertainty start there. Reps probably don't have gold because the numbers don't work. Reps probably have repped ETA's because they know how to do it and they cost less. A so called genuine ETA DJ can be bought for $200, and yet the movement even in "raw" bulk form is worth more than half the price of the watch? Even the raw parts have been increased several times according to The Zigmeister. But wait, it says ETA on the baseplate it must be ETA right? It also says Rolex on the dial, but...They can 1:1 a Ferrari PAM dial but not an ETA stamp or rotor or parts, right? Yeah OK, go ahead and believe that if you like as they take your money. Not that it changes anything anyway. We are going to pay regardless, but don't kid yourself. So and so says he uses solid gold even though it would have no bearing on sales and the cost of it would come right off his bottom line which he will gladly give up for no other reason than to differentiate himself to his competition? Yeah, and I own the rights to the Disney catalogue - wanna buy them for cheap? The point being at least admit that we don't know anything before knowing anything and err on the side of economy to the maker. Could Hyundai put an Italian race motor in their car? Well sure, but why would they? It would be a waste of money. So if they ever say they do, start there and work backwards, instead of believing it first and defending it as if it both makes sense and you know anyway. At this point unless I have it on good authority that the poster works at the factory and watched the alloy get melted and made into a bracelet, I don't want to hear it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 I was one of the first to ever make that arguement and was ridiculed and now of course it is a known fact that ETA movements have been repped If you were the first ridiculed then I was the second... I remember two years a go (more or less) posting that my watchmaker was sure I was buying watches with faux ETA movements... some members in this forum were laughing about me... and now... ETA reps exist earlier than many of us can imagine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
involt Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 (edited) Vmena and RobbieG, thanks for your replies. In my opinion, the question should be considered from two different points of view; eventually they will merge. The one is related to the "dark side" of the matter. The replica world is invested with an aura of mystery. Only few of us (not many, at least) really know where are exactly located the factories, which materials are used, how much actually cost a replica watch, how the projects are realized, where the fake ETA movements are crafted, which expertise the makers have...and this isn't surprising, as everything concerning the replicas is someway illegal. Hence you may want to investigate by yourself if you need answers; you can't simply ask The other has to do with the growing request of such a product. The market is booming: many people buy a rep, some people collect them. So the market must follow the market rules. The one merges with the other when you focus on the fact that "illegal" simply means that it isn't in accordance with the law. It doesn't mean "immoral", "unjust", "unfair" in any way, because nothing can assure us of the morality, the justness or the fairness of a given law. Hence, the rep market should follow the same market rules as for the legal situations, the only difference dwelling in the secrecy. The seller should be trusted and fair in every respect, all the more so because the customer has no legal rights The customer hasn't any organization super partes he can appeal to, so any transaction has to be clean. Any advertisement has to be truthful. The buyer should have been given the chance to choose the seller on a trustworthiness basis. Because he hasn't any alternative. In the rep world we are referring to such sellers calling them "trusted dealers". Well, I asked (POV no. 2), then I checked the truthfulness of the answer (POV no.1) Now someone would intend to affirm that the trustworthiness dwells in the price. The bracelet could be in in solid gold, but it isn't because the price is too low. 573$ would allow to craft a solid gold bracelet, but this doesn't happen because the price is low; so, either asking or checking is dumb: the bracelet is obviously in brass. When WM9 sold the TT Sub at $ 778.99 (practically, 780 USD), was the bracelet in solid gold? And, if so, did the bracelet magically turn into brass when the price was lowered? Or is even 780 USD a low price? What is the boundary that turns "hahaha" in "Solid gold? Amazing!"? 1000 USD? 1500 USD? Would this mean that 1499 USD is "hahaha", whereas 1500 USD is "Amazing!"? And this goes for the movements too, or whatever Anyway, the gold question isn't the only issue with WM9. But I wouldn't talk about it. Not now, at least Edited January 2, 2009 by involt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Solid gold is solid gold... genuine means genuine... 1:1 means 1:1 ... OR NOT??? If you buy a Sony TV advertised as 200Hz, I expect it performs 200Hz... If I buy a rep (if it would ever exists) Sony TV of 200Hz... I must be happy if it performs 100Hz and not 50Hz... This is the way I have experienced you have to play the "rep game". Of course, the genuine Sony TV costs 1500 USD and the rep 150 USD. Therefore you admit that a dealer "lies" to you advertising a rep Sony TV of 200Hz. Just because "you have to understand that for 150 USD nobody can sell a 200Hz TV". From the very first time I started to be involved (as a buyer) in the rep world, I always claimed for transparency, because transparency is the key word to be able to qualify a dealer as "trusted". My first disappointment was with Paul, because he was not respecting shipping rules and timing as promised in his web. And immediately I heard the famous sentence: "this is an illegal business, so don't ask for customer service as it must be"... my answer has been (and will be) always the same: "if my money must be legal to buy reps, the service and deliverables must be as advertised". After 3 years buying reps and sailing around forums, I haven't seen any improvement on dealer's accuracy regarding items advertising. Always "half the true" or deceptive descriptions. There are only a small amount of dealers (very very small) that are changing a bit the usual behavior. If you find any of them, don't lose him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I just don't get it... I was just booted from there for making a second post which simply said check out RWI and RWG for a telling post about the wm9 gold watches before you make a purchase. Here is a screen shot of the pm's from the RG admin: Wow, that's wierd. I expect that stuff from RWI, which we've known for a long time is an adjunct of the dealers's sites, but I wonder why Geek yanked the thread. I'd hate to find that the rumors are true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakemaster Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 RWI? Adjunct? I think not. Maybe you meant to say RG. I am just waiting for this WM9 thing to blow up. That aside all I know about Styler is All of his posts at RWI are about WM9, just like they are here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
involt Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 There is a point I'd like to clarify here. As far I'm concerned at least, the current discussion regards the general rules that apply to the rep world rather than the WM9 behaviour. I would like to emphasize that my findings about the gold had been strictly confined to the WM9 forum, in context of a hidden thread; raising a specific question about the WM9 behaviour wasn't my intention, for the moment at least. Fakemaster is right when says that the only posts of styler concern the WM9 matter. My guess is that styler on one hand was caught up because he wanted to purchase a watch, becoming disappointed by my findings; on the other hand, he wanted to be a little bit in the limelight (and this is someway understandable), being the gold issue an argument "strong" enough to achieve such a result. After all, the thread has reached a total of more than 1200 views. However, I'm satisfied he meant no harm. Anyway, we could take the opportunity, given by this thread, to debate a bit more deeply the subject concerning the reliability of the dealers. Fakemaster started a thread where he set out some criteria that would allow us to determine if a given dealer is trustworthy or he is not. Theoretically, the criteria seem to be rigorous enough; practically, there is room for doubt. what does exactly mean: Shipped a product that was inferior or not as described or Grossly overcharged for products or Behaves in a manner which is not considered ethical If someone claims that his product is in solid gold whereas it is not, or he claims that the product is equipped with a genuine ETA movement when it actually contains a clone at best, is he providing a truthful description? Is he going to ship a product that isn't inferior? If he asks for a given price, and the item isn't consistent with the description but it's inferior, is he overcharging for the product? And, above all, who can establish if such a behaviour is ethical? What does exactly mean "is not considered"? By who? Who should hold the balance? The community? How does it work? When I receive the inconsistent item I have to publish the picture, and if the community says "crappy" I can label the seller as a scammer, whereas if someone says "after all, not bad" I have to happily keep my lemon? When a seller says that some parts are in solid gold whereas they aren't, are he behaving ethically? Is its behaviour ethical when the price, in someone opinion (if possible, a friend of the seller) is "too low", becoming unethical when the price increases? The fakemaster initiative is undoubtely praiseworthy, and I don't want to flame anyone here, but we should realize that we should use more precise parameters; otherwise, any criterion becomes useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Involt is spot on, and while I agree with his principles I don't feel they are worth fighting for simply because it is a battle which cannot be won. But in spirit, I'm with you brother. I wish it were different too. The industry drove me from being a buyer for slightly different reasons. But I must say I have always just sort of refused to react to or expect the industry to tell me the truth. Not saying it is a valid excuse, nor is it right, nor is it a watch thing - it is kind of a Chinese street merchant mentality thing. These are the same people you see selling DVD's, LV knockoffs, Armani, etc. "You buy now, same material as genuine. Perfect. No one tell difference. Solid gold. HD quality. Made in Italy. Swiss movement. Genuine Crocodile. Real silk..." Simply put, I have never met, seen, or heard about a Chinese street vendor type merchant that has ever told the truth about anything. Ever. It is almost comical in fact being so stereotypically accurate. So I don't really think of our dealers or factories as being any different than a guy hustling me to buy his swag on Canal Street. Same guy to me so I have the same expectation. Dressing it up with a website and a "trusted" designation here means nothing to me... It is about expectation. I feel that to get the most fun out of this hobby you just have to let go. I hate TT watches, but I'm certain that WM9's is the best Rolex TT Sub I have ever seen and if I wanted one I would buy his - knowing full well that he is a liar about the gold and is full of sh*t. Like I said, he is still a Chinese street merchant and it is in his blood and every fiber of his being to lie. But for me it just goes with the territory. So while I agree that in sprirt the "You should expect this as it goes with the territory" should not be let go, the reality is that it needs to be let go. I think the divide is in bridging the gap between the standard we would "like" to hold these people to and what is realistic. To me, there is no such thing even as a replica "scam" site by the board definition. I paid a grand for a Sub once and it was a great rep. The cost is a non issue. A guy can mark up a rep at whatever he wants as long as he can find a buyer at that price. It is a free market guys. So is furniture at 1000% markup. Is the furniture store that sells for a 100% markup not a scammer and the 400% guy is? Come on. The "little white lies" are not little. They never have been and they never will be and the fact is if we started banning for them eventually there wouldn't be ANY dealers here. For example how about and experiment? I'll order one watch of my choice from ALL the dealers here claiming to be Swiss. Then I will take them to an ex ETA employee to verify authenticity. Based on his report, we ban any dealer that shipped a watch with a fake Swiss movement. How many do you think would be left? 10%, 5%, 0%? I think you see my point. You can't draw lines on this stuff - or gold - or 1:1, whatever. There is a lie in there somewhere from everyone from a variety of items and if we try and hold a line it will just frustrate us. We will always be at the mercy of the biz and fighting it is futile. You can't win. It is ingrained in the culture of counterfeiting. Expecting counterfeiters to be completely transparent is like expecting infomercials to stop saying, "Only if you call in the next 5 minutes can you get this deal". Cultural... To me, the only "scam" site is one that doesn't ship watches at all and if the board keeps them off the list that is the extent of its job IMO. If a dealer sells the best quality rep at whatever price all is fair. I'll also bet that a great % of them don't even know if the movements are real or fake - or gold. They just repeat what the factory (read: Chinese Street Merchant) tells them. And so it goes down the line. This issue isn't complex. Trying to discover every complicated angle of it is. It is simple. These people are trying to sell the same product and differentiate themselves from their competitors any way they can - just like the guys on Canal. "I see you talk to other guy. I have better. Real gold on my Rolex. I sell to you for same price as him. You buy now..." When you boil it down to that level which is the pure and simple truth of this industry it kind of makes you feel silly for trying to hyper analyze it doesn't it? They are just knockoffs made in China guys and the price and materials range on all the best quality stuff (which is a given that is the only range being sold on these boards) is very, very similar. As long as you get shipped the watch you studied for hours in a picture and for the agreed upon price whatever it is high or low, that is all you can hope for. If you need more than that I'm sorry but you are in for continual disappointment. Personally, I got tired of another form of disappointment - quality issues. But like these other issues there is no point in fighting reality. Now I shop at the AD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 There is a point I'd like to clarify here. As far I'm concerned at least, the current discussion regards the general rules that apply to the rep world rather than the WM9 behavior. Crystal clear... Involt is spot on, and while I agree with his principles I don't feel they are worth fighting for simply because it is a battle which cannot be won. But in spirit, I'm with you brother. I wish it were different too. I can't agree... battle started a long time a go. This forum is a clear evidence that we can make some control on "trusted" dealers. If not, we still would be buying Asian ETA's as swiss ones. I don't want to resign to be told the true, no matter the seller is Chinese, Indian or European. Specially when we are not buying Canal Street watches and paying top dollar (comparing to the average in rep world, obviously). To me, the only "scam" site is one that doesn't ship watches at all Not at all Robbie... "scamming" is also sending other thing than advertised... "scamming" is telling "I will cover custom sizing" and once t happens, forgetting what was said... I might be an utopian person, but if have to pay with legal currency, and in advance, to a number of dealers "protected" by the board (since they are supposed to be allowed to post and verified) I can ask for something more than a Canal Street seller behivor... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Yeah I get it Vmena but nothing really changes. I clearly don't see it the same as you - or I do actually, but my view just has added conditions. I'm saying I don't agree with the forum criteria not because I don't think it is right, but because I don't think it is realistic. I also do know obviously that there is a distinction of the products we buy being higher quality than the Canal street stuff, but the fact is the participants are the same and deal with the same kinds of wholesaleers and suppliers. It is a corupt industry. So the issue is control and true control is of course impossible in life to begin with, but even more impossible is control in a corupt industry. Try we must, but alas, a Chinese counterfeit guy is at the mercy of his own industry too - no matter his character... Make to mistake,I agree that you have the right to ask for better than Canal street behavior when you pay top dollar and get that we sort of look to the board to do its best to protect us from these evils. I'm just saying that if we are after having consistent quality, truthfulness, and overall typical retail internet commerce experience I'm not sure it is realistic. To that end, I have sort of chosen to participate less and less in the commerce aspect of it myself due to fairly predictable disappointments regardless of product or dealer. I will say that my own chosen dealer whom I have done 90%+ of my business with has never once lied to me and yet he would top any list of liars from the membership here. He has done nothing but his very best and been 100% truthful, but I hear that he hasn't with others. So this is exactly my point. The experiences are very hit and miss as are the products, hence this whole post of mine. All you can do is evaluate how your experience is with whoever by trial and error, evaluate the results and decide how you will proceed in the future. But it will nver be cut and dried for urposes of any group evaluation or rating - even the word "trusted" is suspect. Trusted to do what, and when, and with who are immediately needed to even come close to getting an accurate description of a dealer in this industry. I'm not saying that we shouldn't strive to do our best to equalize things and protect our membership. We must and I'm grateful for that. But we must realize that we aren't going to nail it everytime. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
involt Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Maybe we're all speaking of different aspects of the same concept, and at the very end we're saying the same thing. Robbie says that "a Chinese street vendor type merchant has ever told the truth about anything", and this is undoubtely true, but we don't deal with Chinese vendors. We deal with exponents of the Western World. THEY deal with Chinese vendors. They intentionally obscure the sources of the products in order to keep on holding an economic power. They merge in a "Cartel" that allows them any price increasing at no risk. They are the interface between us and the Chinese street vendors. The Chinese street vendor dares to lie in his teeth because the street selling is a sort of "grab-and-go"; most likely, you'll never see the vendor again. Not so for our beloved "trusted dealers"; they are included in a list of trusted person, as opposite to "scam sites". But the distribution of the risk is widely unbalanced. If everything runs smoothly, there is a 400 percent profit for the seller; when something goes wrong, the buyer loses anything. What kind of trustworthiness would this be? On the other hand, I realize that the vendor takes a risk; but we should restore a balance. In this respect, I'm with Vmena. RobbieG says: I'll also bet that a great % of them don't even know if the movements are real or fake - or gold. They just repeat what the factory (read: Chinese Street Merchant) tells them. and in my opinion this is the point: the good faith. If the seller knows nothing about the product he has been someway scammed too; but even if he has been scammed he will do something in order to keep faith with the buyer. IMHO, this is the only valid parameter you can count on. And this is the reason why I don't want to specifically speak about WM9: I'm still believing in his good faith. But currently I'm losing more than 800$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Peace Robbie. although I might agree with you that my position could be not very realistic, I won't give up claiming for accuracy and respect from the dealers in this forum (as well from to buyers, sure). I see also your point and I have to admit that even with dealers on which a have a certain level of confidence, I always cut a half my expectations not be dessapointed. But I don't like this way of doing; not at all. And I hope dealers will also understand that to be "trusted" they have to be "trustable". Just one more thing... it is on our side (buyers) to denounce every defective transaction and lose this strange fear we sometimes feel because the dealer may not take our orders again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Maybe we're all speaking of different aspects of the same concept, and at the very end we're saying the same thing. Agree. We deal with exponents of the Western World. THEY deal with Chinese vendors True... If everything runs smoothly, there is a 400 percent profit for the seller; when something goes wrong, the buyer loses anything Therefore we, as buyers, need much more protection and respect from our dealers... an this is only possible revealing any unsatisfactory transaction in the board, unless the dealer makes his best to find a deal with the customer. Furthermore, the dealer also has the possibility to post and ask moderators and the general community for kind of intermediation (why not creating such a transaction intermediate board for difficult deals?). I'm around since end of 2005 (old RWG) and I have seen a slightly change in sellers behavior, except in "cartel ones". There are some of them that started to approach more personally each customer... This may be the beginning of a new way ofbuyers/dealersrelationships... and mostly due to those members that have exposed in public their findings, flaw transactions... even with the risk of being attacked by other members... If the seller knows nothing about the product he has been someway scammed too; but even if he has been scammed he will do something in order to keep faith with the buyer. IMHO, this is the only valid parameter you can count on. This sentence should be the "Bible" for sellers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XWORD Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Now I shop at the AD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URkuk Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 I don't have a lot of experience with rep dealers but I suspect they all "bend" the truth a bit.. I do think if a dealer is asked a point blank question he should answer truthfully or if he can not answer the question he should say so. Prior to purchasing my WM9 V2 sub I asked George point blank if the watch movement was genuine ETA made in Switzerland. He stated that it was genuine ETA made in Switzerland and that was one of the reasons he charges more for his watches. I certainly do not have the expertise to identify the movement My watch goes to The Zigmeister in March for a full service. I would think The Zigmeister can provide the answer to that question Is it genuine Swiss made ETA or is it Memorex?..It will be interesting to find out I will be disappointed if George bent the truth as I based my decision to purchase his watch from his answer Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kegra Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 hi to all, i have more than a year to post to any rep forum or buy any reps for that time, i have before some time (2006) bought a sub16613 with 14k solid gold as was advertised by a "trusted" seller ("" are optional you can remove them) the seller backed up his product and i believe him till now.. i believe that solid gold rep exists (dont know if wm9 sells them or not) but the cost is not as high as you think.. i post here the sellers original post over at TRC ... vmena you were there too at the very same thread. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a lot of loyal customers who have taken my word for it and purchased some of my 14K gold reps. I have compiled this thread to answer some of the frequently asked questions about solid gold reps. Please note, I am not speaking on behalf of other dealers. I have not seen other dealers reps to assess their claims. I am strictly clearing up the fact, if I claim its 14k gold, them my word is as good as gold. Firstly a few points I want to make. 1. I stand by my word. 2. If I say its gold its gold 3. Gold is not as expensive as people really think. Especially when you are talking about hollow mid links. Each mid link weighs approx 0.8 grams. Assume there are 12 Gold mid links. That is 9.6 grams of gold. 4. I have been in the gold industry for over 8 years. YES, this means I know what iam talking about. So lets start with the basics. 24 carat - 100% pure or 999 fine 22 carat - 91.7% pure or 917 fine 18 carat - 75% pure or 750 fine 14 carat - 58.3% pure or 583 fine 9 carat - 37.5% pure or 375 fine Todays gold rate for 1oz troy is $550 for 24k Gold 1 ounce troy is 31.10grams We have already established each hollow mid link is 0.8 grams and there are approx 12 14k gold mid links on the average TT sub or GMT. That gives us a total gold weight of 9.6 grams. To simplify the math Im going to round this up to 10 grams. So below is the math $550/31.10 = $17.68 of 24k Gold 17.68 divided by 24 multiply by 14 gives us $10.31 Rate for 1gram of 14k Gold. $10.31 x 10 grams of gold (total for mid links) = $103 for 10 grams of 14k Gold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Absolutely. And I'm not for one minute saying because I think the reality is a little shaky that there is no reason to stand up and fight. Just know going in sometimes the deck is stacked against us... Just one more thing... it is on our side (buyers) to denounce every defective transaction and lose this strange fear we sometimes feel because the dealer may not take our orders again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 No doubt we are all after the same thing and he differences are just mergers of thought. That said, I do agree that the Canal street mentality starts at the factory and our vendors are more saavy and Westernized. I do still know though that the factories are not open system wholesalers - bring your cash and I'll sell to you. They make a LOT if not all the rules when it comes to who sells what, and in what price range. You have to agree that at the very least, mafioso controlled supply systems make sure the pricing is fixed within a narrow range to define the market they create and control. So in the end, the Chinese street merchant mentality runs through everything. I mean in the end, there is still usually only one best watch at the moment for each model anyway - until the next one comes along. The kind of makes my point further actually - this TT Sub I mean. Gold or not, THAT isn't what makes anyone want to buy it. The same number will sell because it is the best TT Sub around now and so whether the gold issue is true or false nothing really changes because of it. And this is what baffles me about Chinese merchants. Even if they don't need it they throw it into the mix. Why even mention the gold if nobody expects it in the first place if you know it will be controversial. And if he didn't know he needs to get his head examined. Same with the movements and the fact that the factories do what they do and even the dealers don't know if a batch of watches will have genuine or rep ETA's in them. This is kind of old news now so why the dealers don't just take another tack is amazing to me. If I were a dealer I would say this about movements: I sell the two best versions of the watch you see in the pictures. The movement says ETA on it but I don't know if it is rep or gen. I do know that it is the only watch with the highest quality movement coming out of that factory right now & I'll send you that one as opposed to the 21K Asian movement which isn't as nice. There are only two movements Swiss or Asian or not. One better quality. But there is only one watch so if you want it right now and the movement isn't a real ETA it is all there is anyway so let's no focus on it. I mean why tak ethe heat for the factory and risk losing a customer by getting accused of lying - even if you weren't or worse you can't even tell the difference. Like I said, there is still only one watch version and you are only going to be able to get it with one of two movements. It isn't like the dealer can go, oh wait, I'll just get it from another factory who I know uses real ETA's - or I think.... Maybe we're all speaking of different aspects of the same concept, and at the very end we're saying the same thing. Robbie says that "a Chinese street vendor type merchant has ever told the truth about anything", and this is undoubtely true, but we don't deal with Chinese vendors. We deal with exponents of the Western World. THEY deal with Chinese vendors. They intentionally obscure the sources of the products in order to keep on holding an economic power. They merge in a "Cartel" that allows them any price increasing at no risk. They are the interface between us and the Chinese street vendors. The Chinese street vendor dares to lie in his teeth because the street selling is a sort of "grab-and-go"; most likely, you'll never see the vendor again. Not so for our beloved "trusted dealers"; they are included in a list of trusted person, as opposite to "scam sites". But the distribution of the risk is widely unbalanced. If everything runs smoothly, there is a 400 percent profit for the seller; when something goes wrong, the buyer loses anything. What kind of trustworthiness would this be? On the other hand, I realize that the vendor takes a risk; but we should restore a balance. In this respect, I'm with Vmena. RobbieG says: I'll also bet that a great % of them don't even know if the movements are real or fake - or gold. They just repeat what the factory (read: Chinese Street Merchant) tells them. and in my opinion this is the point: the good faith. If the seller knows nothing about the product he has been someway scammed too; but even if he has been scammed he will do something in order to keep faith with the buyer. IMHO, this is the only valid parameter you can count on. And this is the reason why I don't want to specifically speak about WM9: I'm still believing in his good faith. But currently I'm losing more than 800$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakemaster Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 People go over the top sometimes and they ignore other things. It gets a little muddled. Trying to find an easy way to sum this up. Here's basically the way we should look at it. There are things that are 'part of the business' that will never change so we just need to accept them. Dealers dropship everything. They never see the watches they sell so they don't even know what's in the crap half the time. They lie. They claim they buy gens when they don't. They claim things are 1:1 when they are not. None of the stuff with WM9 is any big secret. I have been talking about them for a year myself. Bottom line is all the information is out there. But remember you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. So share the things you know but don't harp on it in an attempt to force everyone to a particular way of thinking. Most people think they know better and are going to do what they want anyway. The only thing you can do is learn what you can and make the best purchase for YOU because YOU have to wear the watch. No noobs were harmed in the writing of this post.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Amen to that Fakey. That sums it up for sure. There is no easy answer and acceptance is probably advised - but in the end most discussions are a little moot since we all evaluate on a slightly different level and ultimately view and react to this market in our own way. Sounds like my job actually. My trades are neither the only nor the single best or whatever - too much information to make that judgement. They are just my decisions and I interperet them the way I see fit at the current momnent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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