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I dont know which case from phong you are looking at. If you call him and just ask for a case you will get a case that looks like crap. That is the thing about phong and they it is so expensive. You call him and send him a picture of the case and the year you are looking for and he matches it perfectly. On 4 or 5 digit cases. Why spend $1000 on a case that looks like crap. On my 1680 I wanted a chunky flat crown guards to match the late 70's 1680 because that was the dial I had, a MKII whitey. The problem is in a statement like yours, is, and please do not take offense too it, is that you have no idea what a rolex submariner is. There is no such thing as crown guard profile an bottom. Each case is different and each year and depending on how many times it was serviced and polished changes it. There are chunky crown guards and skinny and pointy and flat and angled. Best thing too do is grab a picture of the watch you want and contact Jensen or his father Phong and send them the exact case you want. You are paying for it. I have done this about 10 times with them and only returned one case because the SEL didn't fit properly. It was corrected and a new case was sent to me in 3 days. This is how I would make a watch. Find the dial you are looking for. I actually made my dads 5513 and never get the right dial. I had the year of his watch and the serial number. When he died his watch disappeared. But his watch was the last of the meters first dial. It was a 1968. That year the case had very weird middle thickness crown guards. I took a picture of the case from The Rolex Submariner Story of a 1968 submariner. I gave them the serial number of the watch and I got back an amazing case. I got a 1520 and I couldn't find the right dial in good condition. I got a reprint but it was never right. So on my 1680 I found the dial first. It was a beautiful whitey dial. I got Mike to get me set of Rolex Tritium hands for the 1680. I got every part for the crystal and crystal ring and bezel original Rolex. I sent Jensen a picture of the late 70's 1680 sub with the chunky crown guards. He asked me if I wanted it to look in new condition, used, serviced, I picked used but never sent to service. (Just in case I want to change or polish the case at a later date). I got a perfect copy of the case I sent him. Crown guards and lugs. So to make a blanket statement that THEY CANT GET THE CROWN GUARD PROFILE CORRECT, just means you are referring to their stock case, and the year you have in mind. It is simple. So I dont know Cartel watches. To me they are nice $300 copies which I can spot sitting at a table in seconds. I believe that Cartel are all in the same exact case type. They are all the same as far as crown guards and so on. Rolex has never done that because they are hand made and hand worked cases in the 60-70's and each are different. Cartel watches look amazing for a nice everyday beater. Polish it up and buff out the crystal and the watch looks like new. The movement craps out you buy a 20-30 dollar 21J and throw it in. But there are tons of give aways like the bezel. But once you start to put all rolex parts on the watch the price goes through the roof. That is why I like to start with a case that I can grow with. A case that if I want to later on down the line I can put a real rolex movement in it and real rolex dial and bezel and so on. I have seen Cartel cases worked on. There are a lot of threads on RWI and Repgeek and even here, of taking a Cartel and working it. The case comes out amazing. A good watch maker does wonders! Good luck.

@occb2 a very informed and informative post as usual. It’s always a pleasure to see you here

Well fellas...she's done!! Well almost. A few tweaks left yet but overall I am quite pleased with how it turned out [emoji1303][emoji1303] A few pics and I will update you guys a bit later. Enjoy [emoji4] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fluffy you know I know the whole story therefore you are welcome here.

Sorry, I have not heard of that brand and Google provided no information. I have a few watches probably roughly contemporary with that one that I can’t find any information on. During that period, lots of small companies bought in movements and cases and produced limited numbers of watches. As @alligoat says, finding out about the movement might tell you something useful

Well google wasn't any help! If that's a sapphire crystal, it must have been in a sandstorm. Could it be a 60s watch- Swiss, from a small company that is long gone maybe.

I think you missed a zero my friend. You also forgot to mention that there is some personalisation to the case back, which obviously detracts from the value?

Ohhhhhhh yeah! Very tasty. I gotta see these pics!

M, buy both. Problem solved. I have the black dial and want the white dial too.