mezzanine

This discussion always makes for an interesting thread. My vote would go to the uPO, as By-Tor mentioned, it's simply too big. In fact, watches that are especially large and heavy end up being a kind of self-torture, as I love so many of their designs but can't wear them practically in many cases. I would put the AP ROO in this category as well. I refuse to get rid of my MBK AP ROO because I like it so much, and yet it's not a watch that I typically can wear and forget about. I'm not surprised at all that there would be people who are disappointed in the 1680/1665 MBK's. I would question whether the people responding had received "brand new" watches, which in the case of the vintage Rolex's, make them unappealing in an unmodded state. I've had both unmodded and totally modded 1680/1665's and they are worlds apart. The unmodded ones I would not feel comfortable wearing out publically (seriously), and the modded ones would require a Rolex expert to crack the case backs to be able to distinguish them from the real thing. By-Tor, I bet you if you had a genuine white dial 1680 with "the works" it would bring you around on the idea of the vintage pieces. What I've learned with the vintage pieces is that the dial makes ALL the difference. Combine it with a genuine bracelet and insert/crown/tube/crystal and it really does have the feel of the genuine. I have a 1665 with the same specs as my 1680, the only difference being that the SD has what I perceive to be the best available "aftermarket" dial. It is damn good....much better than the MBK dials (even when modified properly like Palp did with yours), and still it bugs me. My biggest disappointment would probably have to be the MBK modern sub. Not because it wasn't well finished, etc... but I can honestly say that if it weren't for the vintage 1:1 pieces, I wouldn't have a single Rolex rep in my collection. In fact, I wouldn't wear a lot of the semi-modded ones...but the fully modded ones are something different. That's what makes me curious about the ceramic GMT II. I haven't been following the response to that, so maybe I'll have to take a look. I already have a "first generation" ceramic HBB, though, and at the new prices, I think they're actually a solid deal- I'd have a hard time imagining someone receive that watch and not being impressed.

Best wishes, T....

I've run into this a few times, I think different endlinks are simply different shaped, sometimes even when they 'should' be identical (580's). Consider that 580's are used with both the 1680 and the 1665 and yet the cases are different.

Devastating that they're no longer using titanium, which is one of the things I really liked about this one. I like the design, though. Seems similar to the steelfish.

Gotta roll with my only two watches right now- I might have an upgrade for the Sea Dweller that is relatively uncommon coming up soon...

Interesting stuff, I'm going to respond more thoroughly in a bit, but here's a pic of the helium valve of the watch linked to by cskent, certainly night-and-day compared to the MBW stock engraved He valve:

Freddy, regarding the shine of the steel, isn't that one of the distinguishing features between the gens and reps? I would've thought the vietnamese cases with their more distinct shine is probably closer to the different grade of steel that Rolex uses. The difference in appearance between the gen and rep 'steel' is one of the reasons I think the bracelet 'upgrade' is worth it, as well as the finish. I agree about the price issue. Anything about $500 isn't worth it. At the same time, I found it interesting that if I considered that basically use the MBK 'cases' exclusively anyways, not using any of the standard parts when it's all said and done. I guess I still use the ETA movement, even if they're swapped out for slower-beat ones, etc.. I see a very steep price/value curve working if you start to consider genuine movements. My consideration is that anything you can 'see' stays within the range of replicas, and the price trade off is not worth it, IMO. I would be interested in doing an Explorer based on a vietnamese case, but the gen parts I think it would require to be good would make spending a huge amount on the case or a gen movement unrealistic. However, other than the bezel and the dial, the rest of the watch could be done without a huge premium on parts...which is a hugely relative statement.

Yeah, you're right, I could've sworn that my eyes were deceiving me- here is the dial under the best lighting I've probably been able to achieve yet...

dvn, enjoy that one while you can, I can't believe it's still available...

If this goes to court, I'm hiring By-Tor as my representation and claiming a literal translation defense... I came very close to posting an update pic to show the full scope of my particularly canadian celebration!! We know how to do things up right... I can't find a more specifically incriminating smiley...so I guess I'm pleading guilty to a lesser offense...

This watch is almost entirely the creation of repaustria, and I am forever indebted to him as a result, as well as Mickey Padge, two of the best members we are lucky to have.

I can't help it...

Careful..PM me...I wouldn't be surprised if this is the exact same one I'm sweating on right now...I'm [censored] at the people advertising rep parts as genuine on the bay.

I was looking at my matte transitional dial, and noticed the colour of the 'faux tritium' markers looked different under soft light. In pictures, and if looked at closely under a bright light, the colour of the markers is soft lemon-yellowish, slightly raised and texturized. In the dark, the colour is the same as under the bright light. But under more natural lighting, the markers have the appearance of being more 'aged' sandy beige in colour and texture. I don't know if that's a normal optical thing, but I thought I would ask if that was characteristic of the revell night color stuff- not sure if that's the name that Edge used in his review of mods for a 1680- but those were the only markers I saw that I thought were similar in texture and colour under light. Maybe yellow just looks different from a distance under softer light condtions?

I saw an ad yesterday that was requesting to buy a tritium insert, and the guy's ad was hilarious- it was something like "i'm willing to pay outrageous prices, let's get crazy!". I started looking at my 1680 and 1665 vintage inserts and if one of them had a tritium vs. luminova dot, I would've been in touch for sure. I've decided that it's not in ball park to be going after the last detail bits that are way over-priced, the superdome, the tritium inserts, etc...

I always felt that the Cousteau didn't get enough praise. I think it was because of the quality control issues that slowed some of it's momentum when it was just released. I personally would take a Cousteau every day of the week over something like the SFSO, which is a far more popular rep.

I agree with you guys- and believe it or not I think we *may* have already had an impact, but I could be off-base. It seems to me like a lot of the 'major' dealers have been supplanted by smaller collectors. There seems to be more access to reps. I think that's part of the effect of the 'super reps'. I agree with Ken that they're not even that 'super' in the sense of quality control, etc.. but I believe that they have popularized reps in a way that they weren't before the 'super reps' arrived. Am I wrong on that? It could just be that my own participation has evolved in parallel with that time period...and I'm generalizing as a result. Point being that the average person on the street is becoming aware that there are high end reps. I think that the average person is probably more apt to drop money without considering relative value. It wouldn't surprise me if there ends up being a different price for us, vs. the average guy on the street or the average person on the net. We can even potentially see this happening right now with the new dealer Watchmark and the HBB's that he's undercutting the other dealers on. I could see the community evolving so that supporting members of RWG can access discounted new release watches, but the majority of the folks who actually buy these things are paying 30% more. That's what I would like to see happen.

Chief, it sounds like we were of a similar mind regarding this one initially. I came really close once to picking one up, but it was already modded and I'd figured since I was on the fence, I would be better off to get the unmodded watch and see if I liked it first. I'm regretting that decision now, but hindsight is always 20/20. Did the 3717 that you got from Marty come from EL initially? I'm trying to figure whether I'm going to have to play the waiting game of watching the sales board for one of the 'good ones'. I think there was a thread a couple of days ago (kruzer?) talking about how the later releases of the watch aren't even worth it. I am beginning to see the light with the aesthetics of this one- especially with the incredible AR. The matte black dial with the simple layout design would look incredible with "no crystal". I've found that I particularly like the effect of AR with watches that offer some contrast with the effect. What I mean is, the 3717 makes sense to me as to why it would impressive, considering the vintage look of the dial and the large size of it. The disappearing crystal would be seemingly at odds with the vintage design, but in a good way. Another example is the ceramic HBB. The polished ceramic is SOO reflective, so the contrast with the AR is something to behold. I know this isn't an AR thread, but another watch I'm dying to see with your new coating is the MBW AP ROO...particularly one of the models with the highly micro-detailed dial. Like with the Tags that I saw coated, it's a watch that absolutely 'should' have come standard with double AR.

As recently as six months ago, I would've believed that the whole 'super rep' pricing phenomenon was here to stay, and that we had very little ability to influence prices. Now, I'm not so sure. I perceive that there HAS been a bit of a backlash about paying crazy prices for debatable asian movements. I could accept that there is a market outside of these boards that represents a larger % of sales, but we are the only source of feedback for the rep makers. Chances are that if we're not going to pay a particular price, the more general market will also resist paying that price. The 'dealers' who I perceived to rely heavily on the replica watch communities for their sales seem to have become less prominent and visible. The biggest factor I believe is working in our direction is the passage of time. When the super reps were fresh on the scene, and there wasn't really an precedent to use to anticipate how their price or value would change as time progressed, it was more believable that the inflated prices could stay 'fixed'. The reality of the market has started to re-assert itself. Enough time has gone by that the 'super rep' is becoming more of a regular rep, by quality standards that are evolving. You can't release new watches at the old prices and expect to keep the old watches selling at the same premium as they were when they were the new releases. That's why about 6 months ago I sold off almost all of my chinese reps, and focused on building a couple of project watches using genuine parts. My plan is to wait until some of the older generation of super-reps start to become available in the used market at reasonable prices. No longer will I pay the premium for newer reps that people don't realize are going to depreciate at a rapid rate. I'll wait for watches like the SFSO, 3717, etc.. The dynamics have changed, and buying the latest and greatest release is no longer a winning proposition in most cases. There are exceptions, like with the 3717 whereby those that were late picking one up were unable to get a decent quality watch...but for the most part they're no longer worth it. It's amazing to me that people forget we're dealing with reps. People start applying gen standards or beliefs about their value-retention to these 'super reps' under the pretense they're going to be different than previous generations of reps. That's an error of judgment, in my estimation. They're more expensive, but they still depreciate like other reps...

Freddy, it looks like you're gearing up for the best DRSD project the community has ever seen- I'm excited to see how it turns out! I wish you hadn't brought my attention to the flaws with the aftermarket dials- ignorance is bliss! But I am glad that I've got a better feel for what could be improved. It's an interesting process of deciding 'which' flaws are less irritating to yourself, individually, and then accepting the flaws that are inherent to the chosen dial. When I looked at the MBK dials, I couldn't get over the difference in the quality of the NDtrading or 're-painted' dials, in the sense that they "just looked better" to me, even though as I've come to discover, they're actually not necessarily any more 'accurate'. As time has gone on, I've become less concerned with absolute fidelity to the original, and am more sensitive to the quality of appearance, even if somewhat flawed.

Looks great! I love the red subs- I only wish there was a good aftermarket dial that I thought got close to the genuine. The red brings a contrast and focus to the dial and livens things up a bit. The Zigmeister's lume work on these vintage pieces is out-of-this-world. I would love to have my 1665 re-touched to "de-yellow" the markers on my dial... I wonder if I would like my 1680 as much as I do if the dial weren't genuine. I like the sub better than my 1665, but I like everything better on the sea dweller with the exception of the dial...so it goes to show how significant the dial is to the overall impact of the watch.

There's something to be said for the fact that so many of the long-time members have picked up this watch and invested a lot of $$ to make it 'right'. It causes me to think that I may have missed the boat on this one. This was the first 'new release' that I told myself I wouldn't be conditioned by 'group think' and buy it simply because it's so popular. Sure enough, after this length of time the IWC is growing on me... I love the look of the Slevin on bracelet, but this would be at the top of my list if I could find one already modded at some point in the future on the sales board-

Nice job on the modded 1680! Only thing I'd suggest is picking up a genuine insert/pearl, if you have the opportunity. Genuine insert is a huge upgrade, worth it for sure...