ryyannon Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Has anyone ever found one/been there/done this? The caseback is usually solid on this model. There's gotta be a way..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 I think silix or Josh had these with optional see through case back or solid caseback but I can't remember 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 have you tried a regular black seal (45mm) caseback? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 I think silix or Josh had these with optional see through case back or solid caseback but I can't remember 100%. From what I see on Josh's and Andrew's sites, there are currently TWO versions of the 45mm Radiomir-cased vintages: one with the Russian Moljot movement and another with an Asian Unitas. Ease case has slightly different dimensions, the Moljot being 1mm thinner than the Asian. Whlle the Asians do come with a display back, the Russian movemnts invariably have a solid steel back. The cases being different, I don't think that the casebacks are interchangable. That's the difference, and that's the problem. @Slay: Like I'm saying, these cases are not the standard Black Seal cases....rather doubt that it would work. It looks like Chris has been trying and so far has not succeeded..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Looks like I'm going to have to get my dremel out again, drill a hole in the caseback and jam in a crystal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Although they are still on the site the Molnija versions are no longer available. They now come with either ETA or Asian 6497 movts. I was very lucky in that one of my 3646's cam with the new ETA G series PAM movt and a display back. This was a one off as far as I am aware. I have seen sellers on iOffer with the Molnija models but usually they hava a solid back anyway. The see thru back of the 6152's does not fit the Radiomir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 I thought those that have a different case are 47mm models and not 45mm?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 I thought those that have a different case are 47mm models and not 45mm?! Not sure what you mean there Slay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Not sure what you mean there Slay? There are two different 47mm vintage cases as well, depending on the movements inside. The same holds true for the 45mm vintage cases. Display backs for one model but not for the other. Can be confusing as hell..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 The only ones I've seen with a choice were the 47mm 6152's with either screw down crown or locking lever/CG. These I know come with a clip on solid cover that fits over the display back or a solid back. The display back I showd in the other post was a one off as far as I know. The whole watch was a bit odd with the G series movt. I should also warn you that the newer vintage models come with an awful dial. It is a sandwich but the top pierced dial is very thin and the under dial is just painted white. The dials that were fitted to the earlier Molnija models are much much better quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 My head is starting to spin....I'm losing track of models movements and casebacks..... What I can say is that my vintage 2533 with the Molnija (glad to see it spelled correctly - I kept messing it up) movement has a perfectly wonderful sandwich dial with a lovely beige-pale yellow lume (not white) set off by slighter yellower hands. In short, exactly what you see in the WM version I've posted, except for a different color lume... Other than doing a custom job of modding, I can't imagine having something better or more satisfying than what I've already got on my wrist.... If we manage a new GTG here in Paris, I'll ask Pugwash to photograph it so you'll see for yourself. Like your one-off, it's possible that a number of variations on the same theme have appeared over the last six months. Essentially being a connaisseur's piece, there hasn't been much feedback on these - not enough to track all the transformations and slight differences from dealer to dealer as time goes by..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Not sure what you mean there Slay? I mean those Radiomir style "vintage" 3646 watches all came in 47mm cases. If his is a 45mm, chances are that its a blackseal case, because I dont see the reason for making a different 45mm case when you have the blackseal case on hand. I didnt even know there were 45mm vintages besides the ones WM and davidsen offer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Not a Blackseal case, Slay: totally different case for the Rusky Molinija movements... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 hm... the molnija movements I own are the same size as unitas (after all, the 6497 is based on the cortebert 618/616 and the molnijas are based on that movement, too). They didnt make many of those cases then, because all the vintages with molnija movement I had, were 47mm and not 45! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 All the Radiomir 3646 with Moilnija's are 47mm. The ETA 6497 is not based on the Cortebert at all. It is a Unitas design that became an ETA when Unitas were absorbed by them. The Molnija is certainly an almost exact copy of the 616 not the 618 which is different although it shares the same baseplate with the 616. Some parts are interchangeable such as the hour wheel which means being able to use existing hands. The cannon pinions are different and not interchangeable unless you change the bearings because the centre wheel pinions are different sizes. The similarity between these movts sizes is merely coincidence as they are both essentially pocket watch movts that tended to be similar sized cases. The new 3646 which has ETA or Asian 6497 is still the same 47mm case and crown but with a [censored] dial instead. Cases are obviously coming from the same maker (although some now have the design change spring bar) but dials must be from a different one who really does not know his stuff. Same story with the new 6152's with 6497. Same case as before (although there were certainly a couple of versions form different makers) which is the one that has 2 screws in each strap pin. The come with display back and snap on solid cover or solid only cover. These have a good CG but crown ideally needs to be fiddy type. All the cases happily accept either 6497 or Molnija or 616 for that matter!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropic Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 (edited) All the Radiomir 3646 with Moilnija's are 47mm. The new 3646 which has ETA or Asian 6497 is still the same 47mm case and crown. He, He, Finally somebody Said It! 47 Milimeters Some Of the (Fine) Dealers really confused this comunity with stating that these Russian Vintage 3646 Watches are 45mm! Reps Are confusing enough allready. Edited October 8, 2006 by Tropic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted October 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 He, He, Finally somebody Said It! 47 Milimeters Some Of the (Fine) Dealers really confused this comunity with stating that these Russian Vintage 3646 Watches are 45mm! Reps Are confusing enough allready. Arrrghh! Could it be that my '45mm' Russian Vintage 2533 (it's NOT a 3646) is really 47mm? My hands are trembling too much to measure it - my eyesight is going too.... I swear that it's the same size as my WM California, which was sold to me as a 45mm..... Who and what to believe? Oh the Humanity! Update: I found the courage to measure the case (excluding the crown) and it's definately 45mm..... So what do you make of THAT, Topic?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Perhaps the 183 display back would fit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 All the Radiomir 3646 with Moilnija's are 47mm. The ETA 6497 is not based on the Cortebert at all. It is a Unitas design that became an ETA when Unitas were absorbed by them. The Molnija is certainly an almost exact copy of the 616 not the 618 which is different although it shares the same baseplate with the 616. Some parts are interchangeable such as the hour wheel which means being able to use existing hands. The cannon pinions are different and not interchangeable unless you change the bearings because the centre wheel pinions are different sizes. The similarity between these movts sizes is merely coincidence as they are both essentially pocket watch movts that tended to be similar sized cases. The new 3646 which has ETA or Asian 6497 is still the same 47mm case and crown but with a [censored] dial instead. Cases are obviously coming from the same maker (although some now have the design change spring bar) but dials must be from a different one who really does not know his stuff. Same story with the new 6152's with 6497. Same case as before (although there were certainly a couple of versions form different makers) which is the one that has 2 screws in each strap pin. The come with display back and snap on solid cover or solid only cover. These have a good CG but crown ideally needs to be fiddy type. All the cases happily accept either 6497 or Molnija or 616 for that matter!! As far as I know, Cortebert was bought by Unitas (which is also the reason why there are a lot of newer cortebert watches with unitas movements), which is the reason why the 6497 has so many similarities with the 616/618. I'm not saying that its an exact copy, but they bear a LOT of similarities! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 As far as I know, Cortebert was bought by Unitas (which is also the reason why there are a lot of newer cortebert watches with unitas movements), which is the reason why the 6497 has so many similarities with the 616/618. I'm not saying that its an exact copy, but they bear a LOT of similarities! Technically, from what I understand, Cortebert was actually absorbed by Omega in the 70's; since Omega is part of the Swatch/Hayek empire, that would make sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 As far as I know, Cortebert was bought by Unitas (which is also the reason why there are a lot of newer cortebert watches with unitas movements), which is the reason why the 6497 has so many similarities with the 616/618. I'm not saying that its an exact copy, but they bear a LOT of similarities! I really cannot see the similarites you talk about. The Cortbert name is now owned by an Italian company called Perseo. They went out of business during the 1950's. Virtually all pocketwatch movt are very similar in design. It's a straightfroward type of escape wheel movt - and nothing more. There are dozens of them that all look similar. The Unitas was designed in the 1950's long after Cortberts 616 which dates back to the mid 1930's. And also the 6497 looks absolutely nothing like a cortebert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 I really cannot see the similarites you talk about. The Cortbert name is now owned by an Italian company called Perseo. They went out of business during the 1950's. Virtually all pocketwatch movt are very similar in design. It's a straightfroward type of escape wheel movt - and nothing more. There are dozens of them that all look similar. The Unitas was designed in the 1950's long after Cortberts 616 which dates back to the mid 1930's. And also the 6497 looks absolutely nothing like a cortebert. Cortebert is/was owned by SSIH (Société Suisse pour l’Industrie Horlogère) which was founded by Paul Tissot and Omega. They had its seat in Geneva. SSIH later merged with ASUAG (Allgemeine Schweizerische Uhrenindustrie A.G.) (and called ASUAG-SSIH) and the rights of the ebauches went to ETA (but that was after the 70s). Unitas is/was owned by Ebauches S.A. they were also part of SSIH/ASUAG earlier (in the 50s or so). They are all one company now (ETA) I dunno who owns the "name" cortebert today, but as far as I know, Cortebert's ebauches are owned by ETA now! Some Paneristi also told me that the 6497 is based on the cortebert design, but that was a long while ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Read this and see what you think. http://www.perseo-watches.com/english/cortebert_history.htm You might be right but I still don't see the connection between Cortebert and the 6497. Virtually all pocket watch movts look very similar as they are the most simple of movts with a mainspring, going train, escape wheel and balance wheel - of course bridge plate shapes vary but the mechanics are all similar because they are similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 the reason for that might be, that most movement manufactures were owned by SSIH or ASUAG?! I really dont know, but I know what you mean, I've also always wondered why they all sort of look a like. But soo many movement manufacturers were part of SSIH/ASUAG that this might be the reason for that. It was ALL about cutting the costs, because they had some serious troubles back in the days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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