Jkay Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 it would be an exercise of casting pearls before swine. Or it could inspire a whole new generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w0lf Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Or it could inspire a whole new generation. Didn't quite happen the way we would have liked did it? But the new generation is indeed here and it wants cookie cutter solutions for their cookie cutter watches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w0lf Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 What drives new member joins, stimulates intelligent dialogue and promotes continuation of the chain of knowledge on any board is quality of content. This is why the Rolex sub is popular, folks are discussing watches that they're excited about, that they've built or have ideas about building or just about anything else. There's a great feeling of camaraderie. The OP sub was the same way, slightly less popular, but it's all changed. Go back several months and do a simple statistic, going forward in time - threads where people were discussing feasibility of builds, showing off their work and discussing ideas have got next to no responses being drowned out by the "I got my watch and changed a strap on it". I will no longer pretend that this continually holds my interest, when I see a thread like this the first 50 times I comment with pat on the back. But when this is all I see despite numerous attempts from senior members to up the content quality (and falling on deaf ears), I assume the soil is not fertile and move on. When I joined I read the boards for 5-6 months before asking my questions. I also thought I needed to earn my right to ask questions by contributing to the board on topics that weren't discussed or not discussed to an extent that we couldn't benefit from bringing the topic back up. I made great friends whom I talk to on weekly basis offline. No I don't take myself seriously and I don't pretend to know how to fix this, but I would like to do more to improve the content if I can. I'm going to need help. So who's with me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue_sphere Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Personally I just fell of the earth until a decent 312 rep came out. Now Im sitting here looking at it compared to my 3 year old 229 and I have to say WOW REPS HAVE COME A LONG WAY! The build, the quality, etc is definitely improved. Of course my lowbeat 7750 movement fell apart while well packaged and shipped. To me in general I see a shift from "good inside decent outside" to "moderate inside great outside" For the main demographic of people buying these watches it is been the right choice. Modders are NOT the main sale point for a lot of the sellers. We are a niche, and although I have gotten out of it for awhile I cannot be more excited to get this baby flying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAHLER Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 I think is inevitable for all reach a point where need to deal with change. When we arrived here (and I use plural but is only reflect on me), for different paths, we are animated by the desire to know and also to a different spirit of sharing that is gradually losing... perhaps because we lost our eye virginity to view the gold world of watchmaking... perhaps maybe because we spend time in our personal projects and live our hobby more personal, we search something in rep/gen in a personal way...or the pressure of life have distracted us from the rest... so for many is simple a phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted October 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 I am with W0lf here... I aint trying to criticise the ways its changing as I said before its a member driven forum but we need to recognise that what suits a member now doesnt suit the veteran or the more senior members.... and IMHO we cant afford to lose those guys.... Thats why I made the statement about missing them and their input.. So I guess that now.... from whats been said above.... we as PAM lovers, enthusiasts, modders, researchers, etc etc need to ask... how can we accomadate the new members? How can we maintain the older membership? How can we revitalise the veterans? and mosrt importantly how can we maintain the legacy set out by the original RWG members and those that followed and enthuse those that come to buy a good OTB rep to stay and push this hobby forward... after all we wouldnt have these great reps if it wasnt for those older members. those great modders and veterans !! Do we need to look at the format of this section? Do we need to create more stickies in this section? Do we need to create a better form of stimulus? or should we be asking the forum modders to be putting the strap threads in the strap section or the QC pics in the dealers section etc etc... or do we need a section modder rather than a general modder? As we have all said... We are the community!!! So lets try and open up to this new age of reps and new attitudes of members... I dont know the answer.... but I am sure that if there is one then this community of friends and fellow hobbyists can find it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwatch Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Do we need to look at the format of this section? Do we need to create more stickies in this section? Do we need to create a better form of stimulus? or should we be asking the forum modders to be putting the strap threads in the strap section or the QC pics in the dealers section etc etc... or do we need a section modder rather than a general modder? As we have all said... We are the community!!! So lets try and open up to this new age of reps and new attitudes of members... I dont know the answer.... but I am sure that if there is one then this community of friends and fellow hobbyists can find it... Some new stickys might be valuable. There is a huge amount of info on good reps thanks to By-Tors posts on Omega, Rolex & Breitling. Perhaps we need some of the super PAM experts here to put together something similar. A go to thread that contains lots of info. Who is LH? Who is DSN? Who is FGD (not FDG )? What the heck is a T crown and who is T? What is a sausage dial, and wouldn't that smell funny after a while? A guide to the different PAM options. What is Pre-Vendome and why is it significant? I think a new sticky is the first great option here Pete to help revitalize the PAM section. Perhaps some of the veterans would care to contribute to this new, extravagant PAM tell all thread? Perhaps some of the modders could outline some easy to do mods to take your OTB PAM to the next level? A RWG Guide to Panerai perhaps? Or maybe several guides broken down into things like Historic, Pre-V, Base, Radiomir, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackR Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 As we have all said... We are the community!!! So lets try and open up to this new age of reps and new attitudes of members... I dont know the answer.... but I am sure that if there is one then this community of friends and fellow hobbyists can find it... hmmmmmmmmmm, Pete.... life is chock full of diversity and one must strive for balance...i come here for that...RWG has humor, friendship, learning, helping, sharing, questing, obsession, perfection, destruction, frustration, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eton Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Interesting post, Pete! I think it's changed, even though I'm not as active as I once was...it's noticeable. But with most things in life...there's bound to be change, so like you said...how can we as a community accommodate new members and new dimensions of this hobby?!? It's been said before, but there will always be the drop in for what you need and leave folks and then the members who take years to build a watch. It's diverse, to say the least! Rob nailed it on the head and one of the best things to come from this forum is the connections and friendships made because of our love for things that tick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 hmmmmmmmmmm, Pete.... life is chock full of diversity and one must strive for balance...i come here for that...RWG has humor, friendship, learning, helping, sharing, questing, obsession, perfection, destruction, frustration, etc... Well said R...well said Indeed. you left out my favorite part bro....T&A baby ...who's with me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eton Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Well said R...well said Indeed. you left out my favorite part bro....T&A baby ...who's with me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 I actually think the whole Ethos of Panerai and reps have changed - independent of one another. Panerai is now more common than Rolex for young people in my neck of the woods. Panerai watches were rare in the real world - my first gen was bought abroad. I loved them but couldn't find another one in the U.S. So off to the internet and there was the original RWG. At that time reps all needed major work, everything was wrong with reps from Low A's to crappy crown guards to horrible datewheels and cyclops. Fast forward to today and the basic brand is mainstream and has moved away from "cult followers of a lesser known brand" to the "it watch" of larger brands (albeit with some unique heritage). And that combined with the advancements in rep world manufacturing have made good reps every bit as available as gens for those who care to look. Now it "feels" more like buying an off the shelf Breitling or Omega rep than building your grail of a relatively rare piece. Look at the number of vintage Rolex builds still going on. Don't get me wrong. I still love Panerai. I have built more than 25 frankens ranging from a simple movement swap and relume to full gen frankens. And I have my fave 10 left. I still sit on my remaining parts waiting for the next one to help build one of the few remaining PAM's I aspire to build. But it is much quieter. I must admit I have not gotten myself to buy one of the great out of the box reps. With no labor of love involved I have little interest. But no worries I still have friends helping me with a "perfect" pre-v, pray for that 8 day movement to complete that perfect 233, etc. The rep world has changed. The interested population has grown dramatically but a substantial portion just want to get the best looking rep on the wrist as quickly as possible. It is far less about the journey. Spot on W. No new PAM reps here yet either. Took some of the fun out of it ahving them so good out of the box. I am with W0lf here... I aint trying to criticise the ways its changing as I said before its a member driven forum but we need to recognise that what suits a member now doesnt suit the veteran or the more senior members.... and IMHO we cant afford to lose those guys.... Thats why I made the statement about missing them and their input.. So I guess that now.... from whats been said above.... we as PAM lovers, enthusiasts, modders, researchers, etc etc need to ask... how can we accomadate the new members? How can we maintain the older membership? How can we revitalise the veterans? and mosrt importantly how can we maintain the legacy set out by the original RWG members and those that followed and enthuse those that come to buy a good OTB rep to stay and push this hobby forward... after all we wouldnt have these great reps if it wasnt for those older members. those great modders and veterans !! Do we need to look at the format of this section? Do we need to create more stickies in this section? Do we need to create a better form of stimulus? or should we be asking the forum modders to be putting the strap threads in the strap section or the QC pics in the dealers section etc etc... or do we need a section modder rather than a general modder? As we have all said... We are the community!!! So lets try and open up to this new age of reps and new attitudes of members... I dont know the answer.... but I am sure that if there is one then this community of friends and fellow hobbyists can find it... All conversations we have regularly in the admin area and a challenge to running this type of board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted October 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Is T & A's referring to a birds anatomy? Or some of us !!! :) @Don.... as members we like nothing more than being challenging to you guys at the helm What we need is a cunning plan.... Where is Baldrick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Is T & A's referring to a birds anatomy? Or some of us !!! :) @Don.... as members we like nothing more than being challenging to you guys at the helm What we need is a cunning plan.... Where is Baldrick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siesta181 Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 The rep industry has advanced tremendously in the last 2 years. The closeness to the gens are simply scary. So here are my thoughts on the current situation. 1. Good OTB reps are 98% close to gens at very previously unimaginable prices. So why bother modding? To achieve the look of the current otb PAM 005 would have sent the modder close to 1K, now its about USD 300. They can live withe very minor, almost unnoticeable flaws. 2. The new members have neither access to modders nor do they have the skills to perform modding. Honestly, I would not even contemplate modding projects if I dont have access to the recognised modders / builders such as The Zigmeister, Spinmaster and Vac. 3. Members who mod are the ones that appreciate the details. These members are normally established members who no longer need the "Great watch, Holy cow" comments from the forum membership. This is not a dis on the older members. Neither am I saying that there is elitism amongst the established members. I am just saying that the older members don't post their projects anymore. Why? To each his/her own. I for one use to post every single minor mod and project that I completed. Perhaps, I needed the nice comments to continue in this hobby. But now, I dont write pictorials anymore, just the occasional wrist check. Why? I don't know. My PAM collection has evolved and so have my interests. I have always done a little tinkering here and there. Nothing major, nothing spectacular. The occasional sandwich lume, dial painting, case modding.The collection has changed from modern to pre V and Vintage. Now I am looking at vintage Rollies. This hobby also spawned other shortlived side hobbies (photography - shortlived, case modding-shortlived and now strap making-we'll see how long this distraction lasts). It all depends on the individuals and what they hope to take away from the forums. Knowledge and friendships or the best otb rep out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam.lee.88 Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I think it's like classic cars. You could buy a shell and then spend lots and lots of money getting original parts, restoring it, getting custom made stuff to fit and eventually end up with something kinda like the original. Then comes these kit car companies who will sell you the thing which is 99% the same as original for a small percent of what it would take to do the job yourself. Its different but the insane expense of getting all that done yourself is a barrier of entry to a lot of people. To get the ultimate franken would be the same now as it was before (gen dials, hands, crystals, etc.) but those who would rather get 95% there instead of 99% can do so at minimal cost. They can also take up relatively minor mods without very much at risk. Because of these cheap reps I can safety go and try to relume my dial, fiddle with my movement or reshape my crownguard without thinking (damn if i fk this up this will mean a month's rent). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrmindalliance Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 This is a good discussion. I saw a threat titled "have you helped a noob today.". Perhaps it's a thought we could all keep in mind going forward. It often takes only as long to answer many questions as it does to say "use the search". And let's face it If you search for "crown guard" for example, you're not getting half the results (cos 'CG' is unsearchable). Likewise, searching "pam 250" wont work either. We need to take the time to share more as a community here i think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbard Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I havent been a member for what I consider to be a long time... though it is longer than a few regular members on here.. Now this post is only aimed at the PAM section or enthusiasts... as I dont really frequent the other sections unless its porn !! I have, ever since I joined here been absolutely besotted with PAMs in all shapes, ages and sizes.... to that end I have always looked to research and create models that I can wear with pride and satisfaction... not just rely on the OTB fayre that we can simply pay for and wear... Now when I say pride, I dont necessarily mean completely accurate but more a sense of pride from knowing how long its taken me to research the model, select and collect the parts, decide on the finish etc etc..... or as a few of you guys know... whats referred to as the 'journey' Due to various reasons I have spent short periods of time away from the forum.... but every time I come back there seems to be a different ethos about the PAM section... When I first joined.... everything was about... PAM history, PAM models and accuracy... how to achieve that final look to an accurate piece etc etc Now, ( and this might be me ) the emphasis seems to be about... who has the most accurate OTB rep, who has the cheapest, Feedback on my QC pics, where can I buy a good strap.. I see so many posts saying.... Whats EL, Who is Jimmy Fu, Whats a strap Dimple underlining to me that this hobby is moving in a different direction.... instead of How can I build my Grail watch.... How can I make this watch more accurate...... Here is something I built/modded.... etc etc What I see is higher expectations about whats delivered or the service... almost like guys are shopping in a proper watch shop.... and want a gen for rep money...! So what is it.... Why arent members actually taking part in this hobby in the sense of repping rather than just buying... Why arent they building their own... Why arent they pushing the limits of the OTB reps... after all if it wasnt for this pushing of the limits we wouldnt have these great OTB reps appearing now... the more we get involved the more the dealers/factories have to respond... For example LH, now I know a lot have recently slated him but if it wasnt for LH and others I honestly dont believe we would have these 200 dollar reps now.... as I type LH.. I wonder how many of you guys know who I mean... Where are all the senior guys and experts.... I dont see any of the guys I truly respect in the PAM world posting anymore or if they do its very rarely.... it breaks my heart to know all that knowledge is out there and nobody is looking to engage it and use it.... or even challenge it.. ! Is it laziness? Is it indifference? Is it a change in what this hobby means to members? Is it just that members only want to impress their friends etc with a gen looking watch without getting actually involved in repping/modding? Or am I wrong and just being sentimental ? Not necessarily wrong...I see some of the same trends...I can tell you that I make Frankens all the time for my personal use. I use Pam cases and a strange myriad of parts....Having said that, I dont post my mods or builds as they are not "mainstream" and not for the faint of heart. Maybe more of the experts at modding etc. are not posting or have moved on? Not sure, but there is a new crop of new buyers/members and to your point above, they are looking for gens at rep prices... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oncyte Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 The crowd ain't what it used ta be. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwatch Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 The crowd ain't what it used ta be. lol Nope, but good to see you around again Oncyte! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoever Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 Some new stickys might be valuable. There is a huge amount of info on good reps thanks to By-Tors posts on Omega, Rolex & Breitling. Perhaps we need some of the super PAM experts here to put together something similar. A go to thread that contains lots of info. Who is LH? Who is DSN? Who is FGD (not FDG )? What the heck is a T crown and who is T? What is a sausage dial, and wouldn't that smell funny after a while? A guide to the different PAM options. What is Pre-Vendome and why is it significant? I think a new sticky is the first great option here Pete to help revitalize the PAM section. Perhaps some of the veterans would care to contribute to this new, extravagant PAM tell all thread? Perhaps some of the modders could outline some easy to do mods to take your OTB PAM to the next level? A RWG Guide to Panerai perhaps? Or maybe several guides broken down into things like Historic, Pre-V, Base, Radiomir, etc? +1! Made ma laugh reading this, i always wondered what a sausage dial was.....but never asked.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plymman Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 I think the biggest change is the quality of the reps. 18 months ago when I was after my grail 111 it spent months bouncing around the world via LH, VAC, DSN etc.. Nowadays a $230 ootb H or Noob would probably have it beat with no effort and at a quarter of what I paid for mine.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Fleischer Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 I don't think the majority of people have the ability or inclination to mod watches. I know that I don't. I'm happy that I can change the strap and size SOME SS bracelets. At this stage in life, I don't expect to ever be able to tear down a watch or replace a movement. Just about priorities; I don't fix my own car either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankt Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 A lot of the real "Pamnuts" have migrated over to WC.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiBoost Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Total noob here. One year ago I had never heard of Panerai, IWC, or any high end watch other than Rolex. Never owned a mechanical watch in my life. In fact for close to 30 years I wore nothing but $50 swatches getting about 6-7 years out of each. Fast forward to today and I have a Hamilton automatic, a couple analog g-shocks, a German mechanical, a CCCP era Soviet mechanical, and a 1950 PAM on the way from Getat as well as a complete second set of parts so I can build one myself (will be my first watch build ever). I'm so hooked I spend all my time trying to figure out what tools I should order and what watch to lust after next instead of working my job. I occasionally have to remind myself that if i don't work I can't afford to buy any more watches, or that if I'm a good boy and do an honest hour's worth of work I will reward myself with 15 minutes of reading on the forums. I should be on meds most likely. The point? Everyone has to start somewhere and when we each start we're all noobs. I really appreciate the knowledge that I've gotten from all the forums that I read, but I can also easily understand how annoying it must be for the old skool crew to keep answering the same 5 questions over and over. To me it seems like a good solution might be to have a PAM subforum dedicated to "advanced" topics like Pete was listing. This area would require a post count of 25 or 50 or something so by definition it would be noob (and noise) free. Still readable by all, just not cluttered with entry-level questions. Just a thought.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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