HauteHippie Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I believe this is one of the most intelligent and well thought out posts I have ever read on RWG. It is. And sadly it could apply almost precisely to any number of other situations that have occurred over the years as well. History has a funny way of repeating itself, doesn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 It is. And sadly it could apply almost precisely to any number of other situations that have occurred over the years as well. History has a funny way of repeating itself, doesn't it. Agree, and the sad part is the ending is always the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankt Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I still cannot understand why folks who are here almost exclusively to engage in profit oriented sales, are not required to become TD's... It seems to usually be folks who prey upon the weaknesses of dedicated hobbyists who are striving to own that "perfect rep"(that'll NEVER exist!), and are not skilled or knowledgeable enough to build their own... As a person who lurks at the lower fringes of the hobby, and has (and likely will never!!) never paid more than $200. for a rep, I have no skin at all in the game, but I still feel that the forums owe the other guys some diligence. The actions of the admin here in this instance, has been well thought out, and actually a bit liberal compared to what I've seen done in other places in the past. Allowing such activities can often be interpreted as being a tacit endorsement of them, in the eyes of the newer guys who haven't been around long enough to develop a "sense of smell" when reading F/S ads... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin22 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Just for the record there are differences between the rep and ETA parts, although ever so slight. Here is an example of the bridge screw(bolt), the one on the left is ETA and the one on the right is REP. Notice the very subtle differences between the two, the ETA has small grip and is thicker in diameter than the rep. and there is a color differences as well, they are both heat blued, but from my experience the rep may not be hardened. I have had a few shear off under very little torque where the ETA never have. I will try to put together a thread explaining all of the differences in detail so this never happens again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 A comparison would be a big benifit to the members., thanks for posting the screw differences. I wonder how a genuine Panerai screw looks in comparison, unfortunately I don't have a movement in the shop at this time to photograph. Short of unscrewing a screw and examining it in detail, I doubt that many of the members would go to those lenghts to validate that the OEM parts are indeed OEM. I guess it all comes down to trust, and for me, the actual difference between OEM and aftermarket, other than some cosmetic differences, is there really anything to gain by OEM screws vs asian ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ziggy there was also the marketing angle used here, By stating OEM he was implying made by panerai and when questioned what he ment by OEM he replyed panerai, not as the case would be, ETA, as we all know that panerai do not make there own going trains and springs or a lot else on the unitas based movement other than bridges and decoration. He would show a packet marked "panerai" with some screws in it and then claim just about all bar the base plate to have come from panerai, Note, Rockarep may well have paid for all the spares direct from Panerai, but only if he was real stupid as panerai will just repackage ETA parts and triple the price on 80% of the movement parts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin22 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I fully agree with Zig, as for genuine Panerai, I would love to see if anyone has a movement to post. I would be willing to bet that the screw is ETA as is most of the movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I did have one on the desk a while ago and i noticed no differences save decoration from a normal ETA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin22 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 FYI Andy, he was using ETA! He has the parts he couldn't use from the movements for sale on his Ebay store(they might all disappear once this is out). I do the same I just don't charge as much. http://www.ebay.com/itm/SWISS-ETA-6497-PALLET-FORK-/251077427280?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a75618050#ht_886wt_937 Besides it's all ETA anyway, that's what no one understands! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig88 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I would be interested in hearing from the 19 odd people that have received his frankens and high end builds and were happy with the transaction. Seems like he wasn't out to scam people and there doesn't seem to be much conclusive proof of his components not being OEM so it is hard to tell if he was indeed lying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulbrother44 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I agree with you Craig88. I would really like to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docblackrock Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I would be interested in hearing from the 19 odd people that have received his frankens and high end builds and were happy with the transaction. Seems like he wasn't out to scam people and there doesn't seem to be much conclusive proof of his components not being OEM so it is hard to tell if he was indeed lying. Spectacularly missing the point. Regarding the "OEM" claims, there seems to be a significant amount of embellishment and exaggeration (backed up with blister pack props designed to dissuade questioning) in order to justify a high value sales price. It's not really any different in principle from those fleabay sellers who list "GENUINE Leather PANERAI strap" or - one for the veterans here - the infamous RedBigJoe aka The Thumb and his "OEM polishing and dust-blowing of dials". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin22 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I think the obvious point that everyone is missing is the fact that only the newer less experienced members are coming to the defense of this person not knowing any better and not understanding what lays beneath the salesmanship tactics. I would venture to guess, the majority of his buyers were only members of the forum for less than a year or two. They are still mesmerized by his words, again not taking away from his talents just the shady tactics used to sell, they so naively overlook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromag Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 That sux. It reminds me of when Wholefoods CEO John Mackey got caught trolling; http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/18/mackey_apologizes_for_posting/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig88 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 It's a pity his profile is now deleted so we cannot see where the 19 positive ratings came from. I'm not defending him it's just that he's one of the few, if not only, to be building such great pams, assuming all parts were oem as he stated, in the community for reasonable prices. I have seen other pams that were modded going for over $1k that barely, if at all, had any oem parts included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c888 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 If you had a bad experience with him why didn't you give him a negative transaction feedback? He received 19 positive transactions on this forum and 0 negative. I would love to hear from others who received the OEM parts from him to confirm if they are actually OEM or modified ETA. I did leave a neutral feedback after things got addressed. I stated something like, "received 187 not working, got issue addressed" can't remember exactly but it was something like that. He txt'd me some comments then posted a negative feedback for me. I didn't think I was in the wrong to leave a neutral feedback, but don't think I should get a negative. So the mod that I was talking with had us remove both our feedback. I know I'm just a new guy here and things got addressed so I left it be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londonboy Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Having had no dealings with either of the named seller/sidekick I can't comment from that angle at all but I am very surprised that the seller/sidekick have been allowed to troll other sales threads (for reasons specified previously) and received no punishment whatsoever. Personally I'd never deal with either of them on principle now (here or anywhere else) as I've always thought these boards were a place for like minded individuals to enjoy our hobby, share our knowledge, buy and sell watches etc and to be honest in all our dealings. Imho there's enough issues with dealers without having people like this pissing on their fellow members too. Please don't sugarcoat what's happened here, the dishonesty in this instance is completely unacceptable imho. Personally I'd agree with banning someone completely for what's happened here as it will deter others from doing the same and of course it would protect all the other members of this (and any other forum) who do act accordingly. Like I said above - jmho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 It's a pity his profile is now deleted so we cannot see where the 19 positive ratings came from. I'm not defending him it's just that he's one of the few, if not only, to be building such great pams, assuming all parts were oem as he stated, in the community for reasonable prices. I have seen other pams that were modded going for over $1k that barely, if at all, had any oem parts included. again you are missing the point. It reminds me of child molesters that offer candy to kids to lure them into their vans: "but I was just offering candy, nothing against the law with that". Most of us with lots of experience in this hobby can spot a mile away when this things start to go south: 1) makes a splash with great offers at great prices 2) starts to sneak in cheap parts but who would know since he has (1), 3) introduces a shilling persona (in this case G.S.W.) to bash competitors and boost his builds, 4) start scamming people and membership starts crying why the admins did not prevent this. Once you see the plot many times you don't have to watch the movie to know the ending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Now that everyone has had the opportunity to hop on the moral soapbox let me remind you of a few things. First, the person has been banned so it is not like he is here to defend himself. Second, while you are bashing away and his friend/colleague is still here there are watches and money at risk for other members. And so far Rockarep has lived up to all of his obligations - even reaching out for email info when he didn't have it because he was unknowingly banned. If I were in his shoes and aware of all the sniping I am not so sure I would be so cooperative. Most folks who have been put in this position historically were not - think back on all of those trusted modders...RBJ, Finepics, DW, Risti Kevin, the WM SD escapade, Paul and the Crazy Sale, etc. So for those of you who are having fun just remember that you are not doing any favors to your fellow members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docblackrock Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Now that everyone has had the opportunity to hop on the moral soapbox let me remind you of a few things. First, the person has been banned so it is not like he is here to defend himself. Second, while you are bashing away and his friend/colleague is still here there are watches and money at risk for other members. And so far Rockarep has lived up to all of his obligations - even reaching out for email info when he didn't have it because he was unknowingly banned. If I were in his shoes and aware of all the sniping I am not so sure I would be so cooperative. Most folks who have been put in this position historically were not - think back on all of those trusted modders...RBJ, Finepics, DW, Risti Kevin, the WM SD escapade, Paul and the Crazy Sale, etc. So for those of you who are having fun just remember that you are not doing any favors to your fellow members. Firstly, his alter ego or "work colleague" isn't banned, so he has a means to address this matter and offer a defence if he's so inclined. Secondly, as for thinking about "members" who have "watches and money at risk", that illustrates the very point that is being made, the key word again being RISK. Caveat emptor applies as always and all I see here is action taken for the greater good, the wider membership not just the unfortunate few currently exposed. Thirdly, whilst there's relief he's trying to fulfill orders still in process, to not do so would amount to fraud/scam, which would only further justify the concerns raised. You seem to be suggesting this thread may actually push him down that road and it's somehow a testament of his good character that he hasn't been tempted...so far at least. I'm sorry but that's an extremely flawed argument. And finally, your point questioning whether you would be so "co-operative" in the circumstances, well I hope that frank and honest admission is noted by your customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormTooper4 Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I do find the irony amusing here. Lest forget we are dealing in counterfeit goods here Gents, its a dodgy game from start to finish. People and Glass houses and all that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankt Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Once again I would ask: Why are folks who are using the forum primarily as a "sales for profit" vehicle allowed to function without becoming trusted dealers..?? One would wonder how long a guy who went to Canal St., and bought $50.00 watches would be allowed to sell them here at $100.00?? My point being: Regardless of the price range and quality of the watches, a dealer is still a dealer...And allowing them to sell their wares on our for sale board creates a tacit sense of approval among our newer members... Just my 2c worth.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Frankt, it takes time to establish if some one is runnng a for profit operation, we dont know what price they pay for the parts. Imagine you are new and buy some parts to build a franken, but the sell who ever they may be rips you off but you dont know it, then you sell the piece on or try to at the price you paid for it which in the sales post may look expencive to some of the members and staff here, Do we act straight away and treat them as a dealer or do we build up evidence before acting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwatch Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Once again I would ask: Why are folks who are using the forum primarily as a "sales for profit" vehicle allowed to function without becoming trusted dealers..?? One would wonder how long a guy who went to Canal St., and bought $50.00 watches would be allowed to sell them here at $100.00?? My point being: Regardless of the price range and quality of the watches, a dealer is still a dealer...And allowing them to sell their wares on our for sale board creates a tacit sense of approval among our newer members... Just my 2c worth.... You may or may not recall but when G.S.W. first joined here he was listing watches for sale. His language raised quite a few eyebrows with a lot of "we are offering this" and "we that". The community, as well as the mod team, questioned him and he swore up and down that he was not a dealer. Initially, it is our stance to take someone at their word. However, he was very closely watched and sure enough he stopped offering watches for sale. His attitude, however, was not that amenable so we gave him a time out for a month. Shortly after his time out, ROCKAREP joined the forum. He even contacted us saying he wanted to be vetted for high value sales and had some nice offerings to sell. We vetted him and gave him the go ahead. He began selling a watch here and a watch there. Over time though, it started to become clear that he was a dealer. As we noticed this, evidence came to light that G.S.W. and ROCKAREP were posting from the same IP address. We were also informed of their shared paypal address which was under a company name called Geneve Swiss Watch Company. Once we discussed all of the evidence, we took action as outlined in this thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilazn Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Glad I just saw this post. I pmed him a few days ago about a Y Inca block mod on my PAM 111n with a gen dial... Glad I was too busy to mail it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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