Australians Have A Warning For Americans

[KB]

@Idegeneve as much as I can understand your anger here (my wife is Indian) this thread is now taking a very severe turn for the worse.

 

Lack of gun control the members have shown can be debated in a civil manner, racism never will be.

 

Things may have been said that were, at best, unfortunate but I ask that the thread now returns to topic or I will be forced to lock it down.

 

Ken 

[maxman]

Not to veer too off-topic, but I can't resist. Does it really matter? What if he was a bad boy school bully? We should be ok with his death then?

A 17 year old kid was killed. For doing what, exactly?

 

If Zimmerman did not have a gun, I am fairly sure he would still be alive today. Maybe Trayvon should have had a gun to defend himself. I'm sure if you had 17 year old sons (or daughters, for that matter), you would want them to be able to protect themselves with a gun too, right?

 

So this is what a free, polite society comes down to. A cold war between all. 

 

...

 

And please don't tell me BUT TYRANNY!

 

Yeah, sure, I mean, look at Canada. Those poor bastards.

"A 17 year old kid was killed. For what exactly"? For attacking and trying his best to smash another human beings head against the cement after breaking his nose. You seriously doubt that this would and could not result In serious harm. I guess that' easy to say while sitting safely behind your keyboard. But If It were your head being smashed against the unforgiving concrete.. I have a feeling you might feel a bit differently.

 

There Is absolutely no proof what so ever that Zimmerman provoked this confrontation. His story has been very consistent from day one. Are you saying that Travons past behavior has no bearing on his actions that night? The first thing his parents lawyers did were seal his school records. I wonder why they would do such a thing?  I agree that the killing of a young man Is tragic....and I do feel bad for his parents.. But there's more to this story that many would rather not see.

 

There dropping like flies Is south Chicago. Kids being killed daily by drive by shootings. Where's the outrage? Where Is  Jessie and Al? Where are the protest with no justice no piece? Jessie and Al can not meet there [censored] up agendas with black on black killings. So they don't say [censored]. There people are dying on the bloody streets of Chicago everyday and not one word from these wonderful reverend's.

 

The story In this video Is most likely one of the most horrific things I have ever heard of. No hate crime charges that they were trying to charge Zimmerman with at first. No Jessie...No Al. No protest. Outside of this small towns (Knokville TN) news paper....not a word. Not one [censored] word. I just wonder that If the situation was reversed. It would be on every news chanel and In every news outlet In America.

 

As far as Trayvons parents are concerned. I feel that they have discreated their sons memory.

 

I have no more to say on this topic

 

Mike

 

[Watchmeister]

Not to change the topic but I am curious. Has anyone changed their views on guns and their role in society over the course of their lifetime?

[best replica in usa]

Not to veer too off-topic, but I can't resist. Does it really matter? What if he was a bad boy school bully? We should be ok with his death then? A 17 year old kid was killed. For doing what, exactly? If Zimmerman did not have a gun, I am fairly sure he would still be alive today. Maybe Trayvon should have had a gun to defend himself. I'm sure if you had 17 year old sons (or daughters, for that matter), you would want them to be able to protect themselves with a gun too, right? So this is what a free, polite society comes down to. A cold war between all. ... And please don't tell me BUT TYRANNY! Yeah, sure, I mean, look at Canada. Those poor bastards. "A 17 year old kid was killed. For what exactly"? For attacking and trying his best to smash another human beings head against the cement after breaking his nose. You seriously doubt that this would and could not result In serious harm. I guess that' easy to say while sitting safely behind your keyboard. But If It were your head being smashed against the unforgiving concrete.. I have a feeling you might feel a bit differently. There Is absolutely no proof what so ever that Zimmerman provoked this confrontation. His story has been very consistent from day one. Are you saying that Travons past behavior has no bearing on his actions that night? The first thing his parents lawyers did were seal his school records. I wonder why they would do such a thing? I agree that the killing of a young man Is tragic....and I do feel bad for his parents.. But there's more to this story that many would rather not see. There dropping like flies Is south Chicago. Kids being killed daily by drive by shootings. Where's the outrage? Where Is Jessie and Al? Where are the protest with no justice no piece? Jessie and Al can not meet there [censored] up agendas with black on black killings. So they don't say [censored]. There people are dying on the bloody streets of Chicago everyday and not one word for these wonderful reverend's. The story In this video Is most likely one of the most horrific things I have ever heard of. No hate crime charges that they were trying to charge Zimmerman with at first. No Jessie...No Al. No protest. Outside of this small towns (Knokville TN) news paper....not a word. Not one [censored] word. I just wonder that If the situation was reversed. It would be on every news chanel and In every news outlet In America. As far as Trayvons parents are concerned. I feel that they have discreated their sons memory. I have no more to say on this topic Mike

I find this response to be quite interesting. I live in Chicago and agree about Jessie and Al not speaking. I also find that the media and family continue to post pictures of a 13 year old small looking innocent boy. We are forgetting that Treyvon was a linebacker and was supposedly a big football player. I have to believe he was a much bigger kid than what is being portrayed. Is it possible that he attacked George and George was the one screaming for help?

[ldegeneve]

Let's consider why Trayvon was being followed in the first place. Imagine your son, or daughter was followed by the neighborhood watch after the police told him to stand down. Pretty creepy don't you think? Your kid confronts his/her follower. And sure, he or she may have been hotheaded and may have been having trouble at school. Maybe he/she was bullying people. But he/she is only 17 right? A kid.

 

Anyway, he/she gets shot. Your child is dead. But that's ok, right? The other guy was acting in self-defense? Did he have to use a gun?

 

"It's worth the price of freedom (having a gun) in this country." Some will say. Sure. Maybe the kid should have had a gun too.

 

The bottom line is, I get why you guys love guns. No other thing will make you feel as powerful. It's being a man. A man should be able to kill a person if he had to. That's what it's about. And then you attach all sorts of things to that.  Freedom, self-defense, whatever.

Edited January 13, 2013 by ldegeneve

[tomhorn]

Not to change the topic but I am curious. Has anyone changed their views on guns and their role in society over the course of their lifetime?

 

Yes, I was generally apathetic about guns until now. Shot some as a kid (22's and small shotgun). Never felt the need to own one, nor really wanted to. Am in the process of buying one now because I am starting to fear my government and how its current policies (if allowed to come to fruition) will affect society in the future. Not just what may happen regarding the 2nd Amendment, but the general drift toward socialism. I'm also looking at job opportunities in other countries.

 

And no, owning a gun will not make me feel good, or 'more of a man'. It will actually make me feel less powerful that I have to own one. I will pray every day that I never have to point it at anything but a target at a gun range for practice. Can't speak for anyone else, but that's not my reason. I suspect that most folks that buy guns for self defense feel exactly the same way.

 

With regard to the Chicago discussion. I read a facinating book not too long ago. It's called 'Gang Leader for a Day'.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Gang-Leader-Day-Sociologist-Streets/dp/014311493X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358088504&sr=1-1&keywords=gang+leader+for+a+day

 

For a middle aged white guy who has lived a middle class life, it was a very enlightening look at a world I have (obviously) been sheltered from.

Edited January 13, 2013 by tomhorn

[JoeyB]

"A 17 year old kid was killed. For what exactly"? For attacking and trying his best to smash another human beings head against the cement after breaking his nose. You seriously doubt that this would and could not result In serious harm. I guess that' easy to say while sitting safely behind your keyboard. But If It were your head being smashed against the unforgiving concrete.. I have a feeling you might feel a bit differently.

 

There Is absolutely no proof what so ever that Zimmerman provoked this confrontation. His story has been very consistent from day one. Are you saying that Travons past behavior has no bearing on his actions that night? The first thing his parents lawyers did were seal his school records. I wonder why they would do such a thing?  I agree that the killing of a young man Is tragic....and I do feel bad for his parents.. But there's more to this story that many would rather not see.

None of  the 17 year old's past matters one bit. Nothing. It doesn't matter what his school record was, how big he was, or even if he had a violent criminal record. The Neighborhood watch guy had no knowledge of any of the 17 year old's past. He had no probable cause, no reason for suspicion. 

None of that matters. 

The single thing that matters is that the Neighborhood watch guy was told by the Police to stay in his car and NOT pursue the 17 year old. Everyone has heard the call. 

Had the Neighborhood watch guy followed Police orders, followed Neighborhood watch established proceeder he had been trained with, followed simple common  sense, had he stayed in his car with his gun he would not have had his nose broken, his head bounced off the sidewalk (if that did happen) and  the 17 year old would not be dead. 

 

The ONLY thing that matters in this case is that the Neighborhood watch guy provoked the entire incident. All of it. 

 

 

There dropping like flies Is south Chicago. Kids being killed daily by drive by shootings. Where's the outrage? Where Is  Jessie and Al? Where are the protest with no justice no piece? Jessie and Al can not meet there [censored] up agendas with black on black killings. So they don't say [censored]. There people are dying on the bloody streets of Chicago everyday and not one word from these wonderful reverend's.

 

Jackson and Sharpton have held rallies here in Chicago. They are there trying to stop the violence. There are protests. There are countless leaders here trying to stop the violence. What are you talking about?

[JoeyB]

Not to change the topic but I am curious. Has anyone changed their views on guns and their role in society over the course of their lifetime?

Yes.

[KB]

So what exactly are you saying here....

 

 

 

Yes, I was generally apathetic about guns until now. Shot some as a kid (22's and small shotgun). Never felt the need to own one, nor really wanted to. Am in the process of buying one now because I am starting to fear my government and how its current policies (if allowed to come to fruition) will affect society in the future. Not just what may happen regarding the 2nd Amendment, but the general drift toward socialism.

 

Is it that you feel the need to own a gun in case you have to help overthrow the democratically elected government?

 

 

Americans obviously get very different mileage but this is exactly what the world sees...

 

 

Many in the media said that Wayne LaPierre had seriously lost the plot with his response to the Sandy Hook shootings but on reflection could he have responded in any other way and keep his masters happy?

 

Ken

[JoeyB]

I find this response to be quite interesting. I live in Chicago and agree about Jessie and Al not speaking.

I live in the suburbs of Chicago and both Sharpton and Jackson have held rallies and spoken out. 

 

I also find that the media and family continue to post pictures of a 13 year old small looking innocent boy. We are forgetting that Treyvon was a linebacker and was supposedly a big football player. I have to believe he was a much bigger kid than what is being portrayed.

So what? His age, his size, his demeanor?? None of that matters at all.

Is it possible that he attacked George and George was the one screaming for help?

No. It is NOT possible the 17 year old attacked the neighborhood watch guy.

It is NOT possible when the guy was told by Police to stay in his car, and not only to stay in his  car, but to not pursue. And not only to not pursue, but not to confront. And not only to not confront but to not kill. 

 

NOTHING else matters. Not the moon or the stars, not anything else about the victim. Nothing matters past disobeying a Police order. 

[JoeyB]

The bottom line is, I get why you guys love guns. No other thing will make you feel as powerful. It's being a man. A man should be able to kill a person if he had to. That's what it's about.

There may be some who feel that way, but not all. 

And then you attach all sorts of things to that.  Freedom, self-defense, whatever.

Reasons for owning a firearm vary. None should be discounted. 

[Dani]

Australia is like Norway a BAN everything country, and [censored] all personal freedom, its such a shame..

[kbh]

I'm not afraid of the Government and the bogus "Socialism" threat. Total nonsense in my opinion and an invalid reason to "need" an assault rifle.

 

What concerns me more is what's going to happen if "Global Waming/Climate Change" is an actual fact, Should these changes happen even faster than predicted, there will be global chaos and mass starvation with enormous poplulation shifts from one area to another as the population centers dry up and run out of water, the coastal areas become uninhabitable and the farm belt turns to another dust bowl. That's the only fear that I have and hopefully I'll be planted in the ground before it becomes an eventual reality. But, at least I would find that as an cceptable reason to own military type weapons.

 

I also find it strange that it's mostly the same extreme right people that believe in every other conspiracy theory, that refuse to believe in Climate Change, other than it's actually based on real science.

[JoeyB]

 but the general drift toward socialism. I'm also looking at job opportunities in other countries.

There is no "general drift toward socialism". that is simply fear peddling by one side here versus the other. However, if you simply can't wait I'm sure there are a number of countries in Europe that conservatives in this Nation call "socialist" that might work for you.

For a middle aged white guy who has lived a middle class life, it was a very enlightening look at a world I have (obviously) been sheltered from.

The book is not enlightening, it is to make a buck. Just as it points out is being done by the gangs. 

[JoeyB]

So what exactly are you saying here....

 

 

 

 

Is it that you feel the need to own a gun in case you have to help overthrow the democratically elected government?

That's the reason for the 2nd Amendment. But this was covered some 10 or 12 pages ago.

Americans obviously get very different mileage but this is exactly what the world sees...

Then the world should use their head and look harder and further. Few here believe that Australians are represented by what we see in the news. But we could if you want to. 

Many in the media said that Wayne LaPierre had seriously lost the plot with his response to the Sandy Hook shootings but on reflection could he have responded in any other way and keep his masters happy?

 

Ken

He lost nothing, he said precisely what he intended to say. 

Who do you think his "masters" are? 

[maxman]

None of  the 17 year old's past matters one bit. Nothing. It doesn't matter what his school record was, how big he was, or even if he had a violent criminal record. The Neighborhood watch guy had no knowledge of any of the 17 year old's past. He had no probable cause, no reason for suspicion. 

None of that matters. 

The single thing that matters is that the Neighborhood watch guy was told by the Police to stay in his car and NOT pursue the 17 year old. Everyone has heard the call. 

Had the Neighborhood watch guy followed Police orders, followed Neighborhood watch established proceeder he had been trained with, followed simple common  sense, had he stayed in his car with his gun he would not have had his nose broken, his head bounced off the sidewalk (if that did happen) and  the 17 year old would not be dead. 

 

The ONLY thing that matters in this case is that the Neighborhood watch guy provoked the entire incident. All of it. 

 

 

Jackson and Sharpton have held rallies here in Chicago. They are there trying to stop the violence. There are protests. There are countless leaders here trying to stop the violence. What are you talking about?

Why not educate yourself? Zimmerman was never told to stay In his truck by police dispatch. He was asked  If he was following the suspect by 911 non emergency dispatcher. Who btw has no authoritative powers. Zimmerman said yes he was. He was told that "we don't need you to do that" Zimmerman's response was..."OK". When Zimmerman left his truck he was breaking no laws. The dispatcher also said to let them know If the suspect does anything suspicious.

 

His past behavior has nothing to with his actions. You got to be [censored] kidding me. They found about $5.000 worth of womens jewelry In his locker with some kind of  burglary tool. He said he was holding It for a friend and refused to give the name of that friend. He also took a swing at a school bus driver a few weeks before his unfortunate shooting. Not quite the little sweet skitle eating ...tea drinking.....poney riding little child the mainstream tried to show.

 

Do you know why George Zimmerman purchased that gun? There had been several Pitbull attacks In that area and George purchased that gun for that reason only. He did not buy the gun so he could chase down a kid (young man) and shoot him for no reason but sport.

 

When I say "educate yourself" I don't mean that as a Insult. But you have obviously done no Independent research or thinking. So many don't. They become sheep that just follow the heard and believe a deceitful media who has there own agenda.

 

Here's the non emergency call. When you get to the part where he was told to stay In his truck by a police dispatcher let me know.

 

And let me ask you this one last question. Who's most likely to commit a crime? The person who calls the police and knows they will be there In a few minutes? or the person who doesn't have a clue that the police are on there way?

 

[Guest zeleni kukuruz]

So this Zimmerman, he folowed that kid and killed him??? And he is saying now that it was self diffence? On this tape he clearly runs after the kid and it sound like he dident stop when the police asked him!

[kbh]

Pardon me if I'm skeptical of anything I see posted on the Internet that has nothing as a source.

 

 

Relative part of his alleged record as described in the Miami Herald:

 

In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f---.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called “irrelevant” and an attempt to demonize a victim.

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

Trayvon was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to the report. School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.

A lawyer for the dead teen’s family acknowledged Trayvon had been suspended for graffiti, but said the family knew nothing about the jewelry and the screwdriver.

“It’s completely irrelevant to what happened Feb. 26,” said attorney Benjamin Crump. “They never heard this, and don’t believe it’s true. If it were true, why wouldn’t they call the parents? Why wasn’t he arrested?”

Trayvon, who was a junior at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School, had never been arrested, police and the family have said.

“We think everybody is trying to demonize him,” Crump said.

No evidence ever surfaced that the jewelry was stolen.

“Martin was suspended, warned and dismissed for the graffiti,” according to the report prepared by schools police.

That suspension was followed four months later by another one in February, in which Trayvon was caught with an empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it. A schools police report obtained by The Miami Herald specifies two items: a bag with marijuana residue and a “marijuana pipe.”

The punishment was the third for the teen. On Monday, the family also said Trayvon had earlier been suspended for tardiness and truancy.

Trayvon was shot to death Feb. 26 while serving out his suspension in Sanford, where his father’s girlfriend lives. A neighborhood watch volunteer called the police to say he saw someone in a hoodie who looked high on drugs, and was suspicious because he walked too slowly in the rain. The unarmed teenager carried Skittles and iced tea, and was talking to his girlfriend on the phone, records show.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

[maxman]

So this Zimmerman, he folowed that kid and killed him??? And he is saying now that it was self diffence? On this tape he clearly runs after the kid and it sound like he dident stop when the police asked him!

Zeleni my friend. There Is a big difference to observe someone than It Is to chase and pursue someone. Watch...as In neighborhood watch.  Zimmerman had lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his truck. I don't see how someone walking away from you can be a threat. Zimmerman said Trayvon approached him from behind and asked him what his problem was. Zimmerman said that he did not have a problem. Travon said... well you do now mother [censored].

 

Then punched Zimmerman In the face and mounted him mma style. Travon was a big fan of mma. But on that unfortunate night In Sanford FL.....Travon [censored] with the wrong person.  Zimmerman had no way to retreat. If Zimmerman did not have that gun... Trayvon would most likely be charged with murder or attempted murder. If George Zimmerman was black we would have never heard of this case.

 

Race baiting attorneys can't make money on black on black or white on white crimes.

 

Mike

[kbh]

As for the another part of Maxman's post. Turns out the alleged swing at a bus driver was from a Twitter post by one of his friends and never confirmed by anyone.

http://forums.liveleak.com/showthread.php?t=91584

 

"how come the bus driver hasn't come forward to confirm this and didn't press charges? how come no one has come forward to confirm any of these stories?? this is a big media case, if any of this had any substance, surely there'd be at least one opportunist in the crowd who wants to use this for their 15 minutes of fame or make a quick buck.

zimmerman's old co-worker sold him out. how come no one's sold trayvon out?

how come no one reported the jewelry stolen?

and zimmerman had no way of knowing anything about trayvon, and no screwdrivers or jewelry were found on him at the scene."

[kbh]

Zeleni my friend. There Is a big difference to observe someone than It Is to chase and pursue someone. Watch...as In neighborhood watch.  Zimmerman had lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his truck. I don't see how someone walking away from you can be a threat. Zimmerman said Trayvon approached him from behind and asked him what his problem was. Zimmerman said that he did not have a problem. Travon said... well you do now mother [censored].

 

Then punched Zimmerman In the face and mounted him mma style. Travon was a big fan of mma. But on that unfortunate night In Sanford FL.....Travon [censored] with the wrong person.  Zimmerman had no way to retreat. If Zimmerman did not have that gun... Trayvon would most likely be charged with murder or attempted murder. If George Zimmerman was black we would have never heard of this case.

 

Race baiting attorneys can't make money on black on black or white on white crimes.

 

Mike

 

 

Wow! I see you were apparently an eye witness. You saw all this stuff happen that nobody else did.

[Guest zeleni kukuruz]

Naaaaa this is all a fog to me! I dont belive a word that zimmerman says, its very sad that the other person is dead, the trial would be more intressting if he wasent dead!

Did zimmerman have any marks on the face from the fight they had before he killed him???

@maxman, sorry mate but this zimmerman was out to kill, he was feed up with all the burglerys in HIS hood so he was on a kill rampage and this T guy took a bullet for it and died!

[maxman]

This guy was unarmed also. No Jessie...no Al...no protest. Nothing but crickets.

 

 

[KB]

Since the start of this thread, which was opened with a totally bogus video, there has not been one valid justification against limiting access to semi automatics or large clip magazines.

 

The 2nd Amendment has been throw in a lot, but it has not been as some kind of answer to Sandy Hook but more of "This is why you can't touch our guns"

 

I have seen a clean fob off...It's a mental illness issue not a gun issue...well excuse me but a mentally ill person is extremely more dangerous armed with a gun than any other domestic weapon

 

And now we have come to a point where law abiding citizens are trying to justify murder.....

 

And 700 Americans have died by gunshot since Sandy Hook.

 

Ken

[JoeyB]

Why not educate yourself? Zimmerman was never told to stay In his truck by police dispatch. He was asked  If he was following the suspect by 911 non emergency dispatcher. Who btw has no authoritative powers. Zimmerman said yes he was. He was told that "we don't need you to do that" Zimmerman's response was..."OK". When Zimmerman left his truck he was breaking no laws. The dispatcher also said to let them know If the suspect does anything suspicious.

I am educated, and can read the language. Now, let's "educate" you.

 

In a statement he gave to police the same night, quoted in his own written words:

“The dispatcher told me not to follow the suspect and that an officer was in route.“

Florida prosecutors who later charged Zimmerman with second-degree murder in the affidavit filed in April, special prosecutor Angela Corey wrote that Zimmerman kept following Martin through the gated community despite being told to stop.

“Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher and continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home.”

 

 

His past behavior has nothing to with his actions. You got to be [censored] kidding me. They found about $5.000 worth of womens jewelry In his locker with some kind of  burglary tool. He said he was holding It for a friend and refused to give the name of that friend. He also took a swing at a school bus driver a few weeks before his unfortunate shooting. Not quite the little sweet skitle eating ...tea drinking.....poney riding little child the mainstream tried to show.

So what? That has nothing to do with the incident with Zimmerman.  NOTHING at all. 

Do you know why George Zimmerman purchased that gun? There had been several Pitbull attacks In that area and George purchased that gun for that reason only. He did not buy the gun so he could chase down a kid (young man) and shoot him for no reason but sport.

Who cares?? That has nothing to do with the incident either. NOTHING. 

When I say "educate yourself" I don't mean that as a Insult. But you have obviously done no Independent research or thinking. So many don't. They become sheep that just follow the heard and believe a deceitful media who has there own agenda.

It is taken as an insult. And your further insult is taken as well. You don't know what you're talking about. 

Here's the non emergency call. When you get to the part where he was told to stay In his truck by a police dispatcher let me know.

 

And let me ask you this one last question. Who's most likely to commit a crime? The person who calls the police and knows they will be there In a few minutes? or the person who doesn't have a clue that the police are on there way?

Obviously, to any rational mind (insult intended) Zimmerman was "most likely to commit a crime", and he did. If he knew the police were on the way why did he pursue the 17 year old while armed and against what he himself said and wrote being told to stay in his vehicle?