Australians Have A Warning For Americans

[JoeyB]

so guns don't kill people, lack of education kills people.

 

Still I'm out, I have come to realise that when the VC of a hobby group can not only make an obnoxious suggestion in way of response to Sandy Hook but to also openly attack the democratically elected President of the Until States for not wanting to implement that suggestion....and no one even gets upset...well it's a lost cause.

 

Ken

 

You're just not going to like this reply. 

People kill people. A firearm is simply a tool. It cannot kill on it's own. 

 

It is not only NOT a "lost cause", but it is as we set up in 1781 and have worked on perfecting since, and as We, the People of the United States want it. 

 

As I addressed it several times now, each time to you because you try to use your political views to make judgments about U.S. political subjects, you've obviously realized nothing. As I've told you several times now, 'Who cares what the leader of a "hobby group" says?' Anyone can say just about anything they care to in this Nation. It is encouraged.

 

And as I posted before, a quote that  sums up our view of rights in this Nation:

 

“America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.”

 

Now, insulting the President is certainly frowned upon by most Americans, but not against the law. As we just witnessed in the last election, that sort of behavior can cost a person their job. 

 

But you better bet your 6 that we get upset. This issue is being debated all over the Nation, by people who look reasonable on the media bit, and the ones who look crazy on the media bit. 

 

We try to view all sides of an issue, then debate, argue, fight, scream and holler, refuse to comply in defiance, and wind up complying as Americans. 

 

It's not that you "realise", but it is that you don't. You refuse to look through our eyes, or walk in our shoes. And you have every right to view it wrong. Americans understand that right too. 

[JoeyB]

So who's going to teach the parents to be parents. Who's going to teach the ghetto fathers that a child is a responsibility? And the ghetto mother that being a "baby momma" to 3 or 4 different fathers is not cool. The idea's good, it's the implementation that tough.

 

And the kids that see daddy carrying a concealed weapon.....what are they learning?

The responsibility of fathering a child It is certainly not lacking in only  "ghetto fathers", and "ghetto mothers" are absolutely not alone in have several children by different fathers.

 

This is not a race issue.  

[JoeyB]

so do you honestly believe with the forms of government we have today (elected officials, decentralized states rights, checks and balances of power, free press, social media, etc. etc.) that we are at risk to become a place like Libya or Syria?  And even if this total absurd notion was possible (which is not, not matter how much history you try to bring), do you seriously believe that if you feel the need to start your own army and defeat a government that you don't agree with that drone attacks alone would not render whatever arsenal you have useless?

Yes, it is absolutely possible. 

Don't be fooled, those weapons are not necessary in the civilian society.

I agree. If an insurrection were ever needed, the weaponry would be attainable.  

[kbh]

I'm sorry kbh, I should have given a link. If you google it there are hundreds of articles with links.

This one explains and gives their own links to the stats. This is not new info.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/fbi-crime-stats-show-an-armed-public-is-a-safer-public/

Good link Woof. I can see your point but in reality there's really nothing in that study showing or proving a causal link between US gun buying habits and the crime rate falling. New cars go faster but does that mean the average spped on our highways should be going up? In those particular years it could be anytthing from the very good economy at the time to any number of other socio-economic happenings. As far as the statistics show it could have just as easily been a coincidence. Kind of the same as what your side (assuming you're a Republican) continually say about climate change, that it's just a statistical aberration.

 

I posted several pages back an article about Australia and how gun violence had decreased dramatically and there hasn't been one mass shooting in Australia since they banned assault rifles there. Those statistics are just as valid as yours yet seem to completely contradict yours.

 

And Mike - I'm not sure what you mean about being on "their" side. Who is "their". Are you saying that the admins or mods here are stifling your free speech and only letting those who agree with them get their say?

 

And JoeyB - I agree with you completely. but in the world where I live gun violence is much more prevalent with young blacks than it is in the gated communities. Any cop from Riviear Beach, Delray Beach or West Palm Beach will agree with me. That's where a majority of illegal guns are found and a majority of handgun shootings occur. That's just a fact. You can accept it or reject it as you please.

[JoeyB]

And JoeyB - I agree with you completely. but in the world where I live gun violence is much more prevalent with young blacks than it is in the gated communities. Any cop from Riviear Beach, Delray Beach or West Palm Beach will agree with me. That's where a majority of illegal guns are found and a majority of handgun shootings occur. That's just a fact. You can accept it or reject it as you please.

I'd guess it is worse in the Chicago area than yours. But over all the nation it 'evens out' more. 

[txcollector]

Waco abuse of government power very bad call by Janet Reno. Yes they didn't stand a chance even with AKs and ARs better they had nothing and they could have showed them. Maybe if they had a few 50 cals and RPGs they could have put up a credible fight. But that would be absurd right our loving government should just go in do whatever it wants right.

 

RPGs really? Can you hear yourself? so where do you stop with the arms race? nuclear? full blown annihilation of both sides? That's sound like a "great" idea.

 

Look at Japan, no guns, no "me against you" mentality when things go bad. Even after a major disaster like the tsumami they kept civility and worked to help each other. What a contrast with Katrina where some gun nuts where using the poor as target practice. With a society like ours where a few think this is acceptable more fire power is just insanity.

[txcollector]

I'm sorry kbh, I should have given a link. If you google it there are hundreds of articles with links.

This one explains and gives their own links to the stats. This is not new info.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/fbi-crime-stats-show-an-armed-public-is-a-safer-public/

 

using an extreme right wing "media" source the employs the likes of Alan West is really not a good way to prove a point. I'd like to see a credible impartial analysis to support your claim.

 

Data can be manipulated to support any point. Example: "assume nobody in my street has a gun. We never had a violent crime or even simple home invasion here in the past 20 years. Therefore my conclusion is neighborhoods without guns are the safest". 

[Nanuq]

Here's a good article with lots of facts.  It's well written and well cited.

 

http://rense.com/general32/nine.htm

[txcollector]

Yes, it is absolutely possible. 

I agree. If an insurrection were ever needed, the weaponry would be attainable.  

 

The nightmare in your head must be unbearable. All this paranoia and insurrection dreams must do a number on you.

[txcollector]

Here's a good article with lots of facts.  It's well written and well cited.

 

http://rense.com/general32/nine.htm

 

Nanuq, like your examples have clearly demonstrate guns used for protection are effective and having the options to use the one that's more efficient for your case should be your right (like your shotgun example). I don't think anyone here would argue differently. 

 

What's absurd is to think there should be no responsibility/accountability and that everything is permissible. High capacity magazines, military style weapons. armor piercing bullets, gun shows. etc. should be regulated and/or banned. Other than the people making money with those and crazy paranoid "the government is coming for me" types there's very little disagreement in the society like the recent polls show. 

[JoeyB]

RPGs really? Can you hear yourself? so where do you stop with the arms race? nuclear? full blown annihilation of both sides? That's sound like a "great" idea.

We have laws, as previously posted, since 1968 banning civilian ownership of bombs, which includes RPGs. 

Look at Japan, no guns, no "me against you" mentality when things go bad. Even after a major disaster like the tsumami they kept civility and worked to help each other. What a contrast with Katrina where some gun nuts where using the poor as target practice. With a society like ours where a few think this is acceptable more fire power is just insanity.

You are mistaken about Japan. They still have opposition "mentality". They certainly argued fiercely how to handle their disaster from the tsunami. And they have home terrorist groups who attack the civilian population, as in the subway attack. 

[JoeyB]

The nightmare in your head must be unbearable. All this paranoia and insurrection dreams must do a number on you.

Nope, not in the least. Our leaders know we are armed. I trust the Constitution and 2nd Amendment to do what it was and is designed to do, keeping our government to serve us. Don't confuse knowing my rights, knowing my charge by our Founders to "form a more perfect Union" to be a nightmare or paranoia. The Constitution and 2nd Amendment is more a security blanket there to protect our rights to preserve our Union. Without the Constitution we would all need to be paranoid and have nightmares.  

[txcollector]

Our leaders know we are armed. I trust the Constitution and 2nd Amendment to do what it was and is designed to do, keeping our government to serve us. 

 

I rest my case. You reduced the evolution of this country to a democratic society that went thru its shares of hardships like the Civil War, civil rights movement, etc. to the magical power of the 2nd amendment. Do you think the government fears you because of guns? They only fear being voted out of office. Given the amount of time, effort and money that's spend on elections and public opinion I think you are delusional to put faith on that thought.

[imajedi]

This is classic

[JoeyB]

I rest my case. You reduced the evolution of this country to a democratic society that went thru its shares of hardships like the Civil War, civil rights movement, etc. to the magical power of the 2nd amendment. Do you think the government fears you because of guns? They only fear being voted out of office. Given the amount of time, effort and money that's spend on elections and public opinion I think you are delusional to put faith on that thought.

I've reduced no such thing, but instead expanded it. I think you miss the point of this Nation. 

 

Yes. I believe our leaders are very aware that Americans are armed, and why. 

 

We just saw an election with each candidate for president spending about $1 billion each for your vote, and my vote. That is part of our process, but not all of it. What stops a leader in this Nation from making a dictatorship? From attempting to command the military to seize power through force? 

 I think you are "delusional" to leave out "that thought". Our Founders didn't leave it out. 

[Mike on a bike]

txcollector "RPGs really? Can you hear yourself? so where do you stop with the arms race? nuclear? full blown annihilation of both sides? That's sound like a "great" idea.'

 

You said they had AKs & ARs did them no good , I upped the anty to some ma deuces and RPGs to make a point . What the hell were they going in there for like they did and killing all those people with over powering force. This is civil problem not a war Reno screwed the pooch and it was pushed under the rug. You agree with the actions taken? As police officers they are only allowed to use the appropriate level of force, deadly force when only when life in danger.  What about our justice department giving just the weapons you want to ban to Mexican drug cartels, "great idea".

 

We are not going to see eye to eye on this we are worlds apart.

 

Lets go somewhere else on the board and talk about watches we get along just fine!

[txcollector]

Lets go somewhere else on the board and talk about watches we get along just fine!

 

OK, now you made sense 

[doni01]

I usually try to stay out of these discussions, but consider this:

If there was a ban on clips holding more than x rounds, would all the criminals throw their hands up in the air and bemoan their large capacity clips? No.

If there was a law banning guns on school grounds, would that stop a psychopath from taking a gun to an elementary school? No.

It's not a gun problem.

Society is broken. It's full of broken people. One of the consequences is these heinous acts.

Fix the broken people, and there won't be anyone left that needs to kill a classroom full of children.

I think the Boy Scouts is a good place to start. Teach character, ethics, duty, responsibility, and teach them to value other people. Then watch them teach their friends. It can be contagious.

There's step #1 of the Nanuq Solution.

 

Well said !!!!

[mch2112]

Fix the broken people, and there won't be anyone left that needs to kill a classroom full of children.

Er, good luck with that.

[Nanuq]

Er, good luck with that.

Yes, it does take some luck. Mostly it takes a whole lot of work. Work that's well worth the effort.

Here's how I do it.

http://www.troop-215.com/recent.htm

[maxman]

Some will say...but thats just one person. The women and her baby are very lucky to be alive. A atomatic or semi auto will do much more damage at one time. But put these types of attacks that kill and maim thousands every year.

 

Have you seen the resent news about people pushing people on to subway tracks. Several of them killed by the subway or the third rail.

 

I'm thinking we should ban knifes and subways. If people want to commit carnage they will. Banning auto weapons will not resolve the problem.

 

So Obama says no magazines with more than seven. So a person brings three or four and now what?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyW7k7ODhn8&feature=plater_embedded

[txcollector]

So Obama says no magazines with more than seven. So a person brings three or four and now what?

 

at least they have to stop firing to reload. It gives a tactical advantage to take the shooter down.

[mch2112]

Er, good luck with that. Yes, it does take some luck. Mostly it takes a whole lot of work. Work that's well worth the effort. Here's how I do it.http://www.troop-215.com/recent.htm

I was kicked out of scouts. Turns out they don't like atheists.

[JoeyB]

I'm thinking we should ban knifes and subways. If people want to commit carnage they will. Banning auto weapons will not resolve the problem.

There is a length restriction on conceal/carry knives in my state, maybe nation-wide, I don't know. There is a U.S. ban on switchblade or automatic opening knives. Enacted in 1958. I wonder if the 'National Knife Association' wanted to impeach Eisenhower. 

So Obama says no magazines with more than seven. So a person brings three or four and now what?

We hope that someone can get to the shooter, as they did in Arizona when Gabby Gifford was attacked. 

[lloyd]

There is a length restriction on conceal/carry knives in my state, maybe nation-wide, I don't know. There is a U.S. ban on switchblade or automatic opening knives. Enacted in 1958. I wonder if the 'National Knife Association' wanted to impeach Eisenhower. 

We hope that someone can get to the shooter, as they did in Arizona when Gabby Gifford was attacked. 

 

According to a 2008 analysis of NYPD firearms discharge data done by the New York Times, between 1996-2006 officers hit their intended target about 34 percent of the time.

Another analysis, published in 2006 by the RAND Center on Quality Policing at the request of Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly, found that in the years 1998-2006, the average hit ratio for officers involved in a shooting where the subject does not fire back was 30 percent. During a gunfight, where the target is shooting at officers, the study reported that the hit rate falls to just 18 percent. 

The Times reported that in 2006-2007, Los Angeles police officers hit their targets between 27 and 29 percent of the time, respectively. There is no reliable national data on hit ratio.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...shot-accuracy/

Those statics mean that if you shot at one bad guy with a 10 round magazine, you will hit him 3 times if you shot as well as a police officer when the assailant is not shooting at you. If they are shooting at you, you only hit him 2 times out of 10 if you are equal to a cop.

A recent incident had a lady shoot a robber 5 times in the head and neck with a .38, and he was still functional. He drove away. A 10 round mag is not enough to ensure survival against multiple assailants. Or even one determined one.

So, even if the 2nd amendment were about self defense, 10 round mags are a bad idea. 

The 10 round limit will not hamper a spree killer, they will just wear a tactical vest with a lot of mags or use an illegal one. I bet they don't mind breaking another law.  I can change one out in a second or so with out even lowering my weapon. However, when someone breaks in, I will not have time to gear up. I will have to use what is in my weapon. You can bet I want more than 10 rounds when the lives of my family are riding on my defensive capability. The same thing applies on the street. I am better off drawing a pistol that has enough ammo for the job with out reloading.

I bet Obama's secret service agents have more than 10 rounds in their weapons. Even Bloomberg's 5 full time body guards have more than 10 rounds in their pistols. Heck, even the full time guards in the private school his daughters go to have full size magazines. And those guards are not secret service. They have been there for a long time.