KB Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Yes I have another one, yes it is a member who just believes Paypal is a legitimate method of sorting issues to their liking. Let me start by saying that I take full responsibility for the issues that led to this dispute but still know the outcome is totally unwarranted by the customer (who I will not name at this point). It started when the customer made his first purchase with me, a bag and a jacket. As it happens (very rarely) the jacket must have been mislabeled and so was one size to small, the bag my sales rep mixed with another order, that is to say the bag was the same size, look and material as the one ordered but being a different model it was minus a front pocket, never-the-less our fault and fully accepted. The Buyer was very understanding and agreed to let us re-sell the items to save on the return shipping, in the meantime he did another purchase of the bag and a belt. Problem number 2 the bag was the correct bag but too small he wanted a size (and yes he did state it) that was larger that what we have and despite my cautioning my sales rep to be extra careful the belt she sent had the wrong buckle. Still this is the rep trade and crossed wires in China is part of the business whether we like it or not. Again the buyer was very reasonable and pleasant to talk to and agreed, again, to let me resell the goods and he would be fully refunded. All this came to a crashing halt this morning when he lodged a PP dispute....why?...simply because (and he states this) his 45 days were up. In other words all bets are off because he doesn't want to take the chance that I might scam him out of the money! Yes I am angry, very bloody angry at the sheer stupidity it takes to do something like this. I have worked with him all the way, I have explained that my sales rep has moved from Gaungzhou so they cannot go back to her and that the only chance we have of recouping some money (and at best I was still going to lose more than $200) was to re-sell. To this end I have already found a buyer for both bags, all he has to do is post them (yes same country) and I could refund 80% of his money within a day but he doesn't want to take the risk. I am hoping he will read this and think about it because I have told him the alternative is he wont be able to buy off any dealer again. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astonjenks Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Ken I empathise with you. We sold an item to a member and my wife was told at the Post Office that to send the item tracked was an unecerssary expense and that Registered was as good. Saving about £8 in cost she duly sent it registered on the 22nd Dec. This was an expensive item at £500. I was unhappy at her decision, however guess what, teh buyer says it never turned up, the Post Office say we cannot track an untrackable package (you should have sent it tracked) and the Paypay account ends up frozen due to the other member crying foul. So not only do we loose the item, we are left with no option but to pay back the £500 to release the account. Who is to say he has not recieved it, who is to say a neighbour of his hasn't signed for it? My reputation is more important than one transaction as well as my listing as i always share who I am openly with any buyers. Th elesson, in my case very expensive lesson, is a) always send tracked, do not let your wife make decisions on such matters! Regards Asronjenks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panermaniac Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Sorry you are going through this Ken I have never bought anything from you (sorry), but I've heard nothing but great things about your business code of conduct and your resolution practices. I hope this all turns out well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Ken I empathise with you. We sold an item to a member and my wife was told at the Post Office that to send the item tracked was an unecerssary expense and that Registered was as good. Saving about £8 in cost she duly sent it registered on the 22nd Dec. This was an expensive item at £500. I was unhappy at her decision, however guess what, teh buyer says it never turned up, the Post Office say we cannot track an untrackable package (you should have sent it tracked) and the Paypay account ends up frozen due to the other member crying foul. So not only do we loose the item, we are left with no option but to pay back the £500 to release the account. Who is to say he has not recieved it, who is to say a neighbour of his hasn't signed for it? My reputation is more important than one transaction as well as my listing as i always share who I am openly with any buyers. Th elesson, in my case very expensive lesson, is a) always send tracked, do not let your wife make decisions on such matters! Regards Asronjenks @asronjenks, Your registered item requires a signature on delivery. If the PO do not have one, then you can make a claim through the PO. Depends on which post authority you use as to what they may recompense you. If they supply one you can prove to PP that the goods were delivered. Offshore PS Sorry you have buyers who do not comprehend the rules Ken!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astonjenks Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Thanks guys Because my wife thought she was doing a good thing and saving costs the value of Insurance cover is £50 on such a delivery and in the words of the Post Office chap, you'll need to be very patient as they will not readily comply with anything on this. Even if they did say ok, here's £50, that still leaves a huge disparity between cost/loss and compensation. Her logic was that this was a UK to UK delivery and should not have a challenge. As i say, the lesson is pay up to make sure and be careful not to declare the correct value of the package! Best regards Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baglc1 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) UK to UK I would pack a bag and have a weekend away at his/her address. Its that easy. Thanks guys Because my wife thought she was doing a good thing and saving costs the value of Insurance cover is £50 on such a delivery and in the words of the Post Office chap, you'll need to be very patient as they will not readily comply with anything on this. Even if they did say ok, here's £50, that still leaves a huge disparity between cost/loss and compensation. Her logic was that this was a UK to UK delivery and should not have a challenge. As i say, the lesson is pay up to make sure and be careful not to declare the correct value of the package! Best regards Andy Edited January 13, 2013 by baglc1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted January 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 The most frustrating thing for me is that the buyer has done this for no other reason than the fact the 45 day window is shutting from the first order. He must honestly believe that without a dispute I will do a runner. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtguk Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Sorry to hear your going through this again Ken, from experience with PP that 45 day window is a killer from a buyers Pov has the buyer been a member for long here ? Does he realise that you would not walk away and leave him high and dry ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umaz662 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) lmfaoo what an idiot of a guy. someone like ken would never scam anyone ive been buying from him and no problems at all and the guy who thinks he will scam him do u not think it will affect his years of reputation he has built, as remember one thing! it take a life to build reputation, but only a 1/10 of a second to destroy it and he isnt only dealing with u, all members on rwg are his customers you are a small 1 order, other members order several things from him so if he scams u no one will buy from him simple as but if that would have ever happened ken would have closed bergies ages ago not willingly but forcefully from forum mods and members!! so think 100 times before raising a finger on a trusted dealer!!! Edited January 13, 2013 by umaz662 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astonjenks Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Here's a question that i would like answered if possible? Th eguy that has made the PP claim knows that the item was sent on the 22nd Dec, is it okay for him to cause a dispute in less than 3 weeks given the fact that we are both UK based and the Post Office has said they were snowed under with parcels etc over the XMas period, that is to say, only 20 days or so has elapsed and certainly nothing like the 45 I have read about? Regards Astonjenks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielv2000 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Ken, I sympathize with you. Having just had a similar issue resolved with you, I can certainly vouch for your good faith. However, I can understand the seller. Had a similar issue with Minh Quy recently where he sent me a dial I was not happy with. I posted my concerns on this board. Although most felt MQ was a stand-up business man and would follow through,the majority were of the opinion that if I felt uncomfortable, I should go the PP route. At the end of the day, we are dealing with strangers oceans apart! He was also stuck in the same boat - send me back my dial first. I was , send me your new dial first. In the end, MQ did follow through. I never used the dispute mechanism but did mention it in my exchange with MQ that I was thinking about it. It appears your seller did not even mention it prior to. In the end, you have to weigh all the facts. For me, both KB and MQ are reputable and do high volume of business through our word of mouth. Any negative perceptions could have lasting repercussions for both the buyer and seller. You go with your gut. On my thread posted just a few weeks ago, someone said, "dispute it if your gut tells you but you will never do business with MQ again!" I already have my next purchase from him lined up! Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmtlover Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) These PayPal disputes are making the good guys pay. I had some trouble with "censored" over a pearl. It is not £500 like in this story but it was $85. "censored" sent me the wrong pearl but wouldn't admit it nor solve it. So I have 2 options. 1 start a paypal dispute and get my money back. But that would mean that I could hurt other members who are dealing with "censored" at the moment. Or just accept it, try and sell it to another member and never buy from "censored" again or recommend him to anyone. I chose for the 2nd. Why? Because that option only affects me and the seller. Not other people who are in the middle of dealing with him. Ken you are a TD on this forum and not without reason. Your reputation is more then excellent. In every business things can go wrong. But when they do give one other a chance to solve it. Especially a TD because they are called Trusted for a reason. It is sad that you are now confronted with a buyer who doesn't have the most important thing one needs when buying reps IMO. Patience!! I hope this can still be solved Ken! Good luck and keep us posted! P.S Ken were are my goods?? I've been waiting for days right now?? This is a joke guys ;-) Edited January 13, 2013 by GMTlover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Sorry to hear Ken, some people are just that way. I know this is maybe not feasible for a business or in this case would make any difference but as in aston's case it would have I send everything tracked and insured. Ins is a couple of bucks and you are covered and so is your buyer, better safe than sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted January 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Here's a question that i would like answered if possible? Th eguy that has made the PP claim knows that the item was sent on the 22nd Dec, is it okay for him to cause a dispute in less than 3 weeks given the fact that we are both UK based and the Post Office has said they were snowed under with parcels etc over the XMas period, that is to say, only 20 days or so has elapsed and certainly nothing like the 45 I have read about? Regards Astonjenks Unfortunately PP will process the claim regardless of time factor, one Christmas about 3 years back I had a customer make a purchase 5 days before Christmas. The goods reached her local PO in 4 days but then there was a 4 day public holiday and she lodged a goods not received claim. I contacted PP and asked how she could possibly lodge such a claim in under a week and was told it didn't matter as the investigation would show in my favour.......of course it meant nothing to them that my account would be frozen for 3 Months while they conducted the investigation. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astonjenks Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 PP is too fast to react and given the very nature of our forum, we can hardly go Public with PP and the trades we undertake, is PP the safest I wonder. The member that bought my original Vertu phone has, when I looked further, 2 positives since being a member 6 years ago, I have only been here since Septemebr last year and have accrued 7 very positive posts from the likes of Mike on a Bike. Mellons and other, well known members. In future, on high value sales, I think i will insist on a Bank transfer as it is far too easy for someone to disrupt ones world with a PP dispute even when you've done nothing wrong. This guy could be in possesion of the phone and think I can get away with this and get my money back in full knowledge that i need to resolve the matter, not great PP! Regards Astonjenks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Really sorry to hear that, Ken Here's hoping the brother sees this and reconsiders his course of action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted January 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Ok my guy has come back to the table and all is sorted. Now I'm going to have a chat to Aston and see if I can't help a little. Ken 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmtlover Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Great to hear! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Glad you got it all sorted out Ken. Paypal is a two edged sword, it provides a great deal more protection for the buyer than either a wire transfer or WU/MoneyGram. It's definitely weighed heavily in the favor of the buyer to the detriment of the seller. Some sellers are weighing sales more carefully, because of the problems. I recently had an interesting experience. I bought a genuine Maurice LaCroix Calendre Retrograde" from a seller on TimeZone. He was pretty new, but had sold quite a few watches over the past year. When I contacted him, he told me that he wanted Paypal gift. i wasn't too thrilled with PP gift, as it severely limits your options if the deal goes South. I decided to try regular Paypal with 3% added for fees. He canceled the payment!! i emailed him and asked him what was going on. He told me that he would only take Paypal gift unless i could provide him with references from past transactions. I told him that was fine, but I wanted some from him as well. I told him that I had been buying and selling on TZ for a lot of years and he was pretty new, so I felt like if he wanted me to use and unprotected payment system, I had to be satisfied that he was legit too. It got a little tense, and Thought he was going to back out, but since the watch had been for sale for a month or so with a couple of price reductions, I guess he figured he better he had better swallow his pride and get real. I sent him a list of probably 10 names of guys I had either bought or sold watches with. I checked out a few of the folks who had bought watches from him. All his buyers were happy with their deals, so I figured he was OK. He must have checked mine, because he emailed me back the next day and told me that I could either use Paypal gift or regular Paypal, my choice. I told him that I wasn't really comfortable with PP gift, not because of the rules, but I didn't want Paypal scrutinizing my account examining why I made a almost 2K "Gift". He offered to split the fees, and we did the deal. He told me that he had one guy very early in his selling career who wasn't happy with a watch, and at the time his return policy was return only if not as described. Well, the buyer wanted to return the watch for a full refund and he refused, as it was obviously buyers remorse. The buyer opened a Paypal dispute claiming that the watch was not what he was told he was getting, froze his Paypal account for 3 months before they found in his favor, but as he said once is enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtiis Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 KB - hope all is well. Maybe you already do something like this - but I've one seller of items less defendable than others say something like the following in a pre-sales email. PLEASE NOTE: PayPal disputes are good and proper means of sales/purchase disputes for many types of sale. HOWEVER, as a seller we are requesting that you, the buyer do whatever you feel necessary to feel comfortable with us BEFORE PURCHASE. We sell good products and stand by them and do all within our power to settle buyer concerns in a fair and timely manner. While we cannot prevent a buyer from opening a PayPal dispute in the future, we would ask that IF you are not willing to trust us as sellers to act honestly and fairly in our transation, we respectfully ask that you make your purchase from someone else. Buyer bisputes via PayPal seriously hamper our means of payment and take too much time and energy. Shotly put, don't buy from us unless you agree to solve problems directly with us as opposed to bringing in Paypal to sort things out. Our feedback speaks for itself and our word is good. Please consider this before ordering with us. Thank you. My version's a bit windy but it might make things better... I don't know... As for the disputer... while it's too bad he didn't work through things with you because you'd shown a willingfulness to solve the problem... I have also felt antsy in similar shoes... it was like... "OK, this refund/replacement thing had dragged on forever... yes, she's writing me back... but talk is cheap... and my only means of recourse are heading down the drain...so...what do I do...?" I think your buyer just was fearful of being left holding the bag (no pun intended) and recognized that the web is a great means of big talkers ripping one off. Sadly, that NOT being what you're about... you got the short end of the stick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted January 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Yep that's Paypal Arthur. A few years back I had a customer who bought over 1K of goods claim 'Goods not as described' over 90 after the sale. I asked PP how he could do this outside the 45 day window and they said he processed it through his CC. I then ran a check on him through a friend in Homeland Security and found out he was a petty thief and the CC was made out to an alias. I gave all this info to PP and it was still awarded in his favour, despite no attempt to return the goods. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted January 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 @jtiis I'm stealing that Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Ken, Glad that worked out, I run my PP through my CC guess I am double covered. As I buy here or off trusted dealers I rarely have a problem on the buy side if any. On sales just been lucky I guess but do try and only deal with known guys on the big stuff and of course track with ins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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