Smab Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 Hello dear fellow members After about 6 years into this hobby, I still have some stuff to learn. One thing is examening the QC-pics carefully, and if there is a sapphire caseback, examen the movement, and you will most likely see if it is the one you opted (and paid) for - Swiss vs. Asian Clone. I did not, and got the Asian Clone, even when ordering and paying for the swiss. So, the seller says, send it back to China. But shall I use what our national Postal service (Posten) calls "Brev, rekomandert brev", or "CarryOnCash"? You norwegians, will understand what I mean. The dealer says not to use EMS, DHL or any other courier, but "normal Airmail" or "registered Airmail", no such thing here in Norway, but I reckon it is the same as "Brev" or Letter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kire612002 Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 I guess you can use the service called "registered letter" . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceejay Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 I wouldn't send it back, I would ask for a partial refund and keep what you have. If that watch doesn't reach it's destination then you lose everything. Take the partial refund and invest it in a service of the movement you have, or use it until it breaks then swap in a swiss movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpz5142 Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 I would not send it back, even if it means you don't get any sort of credit. You can read stories on the forum about guys that send it back to china for repair/exchange and later when it gets bAck to them discover it's the same watch with nothing done to it. There are even strokes of it getting lost. The Chinese are good and sending stuff out of country however are not as good at receiving shipments into the country. What took 5-7 days to get to you will likely take 30-60 days to get to the dealer. Could be looking at 60-90 days to get the watch back to you. Now, mind you I have not ever sent anything back, just read the horror stories. I would try for a partial refund from the dealer and then put that towards a service of the Asian movement, once serviced these movements are really good. If you don't get any refund just chalk it up to the cost of the rep game and either sell it on the forum and buy another one or just get the movement serviced and call it lesson learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 Ja send den tilbake med sporing (rekommandert so jo er steika dyrt) evt som brev hvor du har bekreftelse på at den er sendt (billigere) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymanmatt Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 DO NOT SEND IT BACK. You will regret that you did. I havent seen a gen swiss movemnet in china watch in 2 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torobravo Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 You have to be careful when select your source. Name the dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droptopman Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Same response. Don't send back. In the end probably more cost effective to have it serviced or replace the movement. Then you will know it will run well for some time. Too many horror stories. Sent from my droptop using telepathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smab Posted June 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) Thank you to all for your advise and worries. I did ship back to China once earlier, I think it was in 2009. It took a while, this was prior to the QC pic routine, so I never saw the watch before I got it. I asked for a replacement, since there were many obvious flaws (beyond normal rep-acceptance). It took a good while, on the tracking showed it was not received for a long while, but it was in China. Finally the dealer told me it was ok. He sent me a new watch! The major issue this time is I got something else (lesser) then I ordered. I ordered this movement (if it is not swiss, why does it look different than the one they market as asian clone?): I did not notice on the QC, the Asian Clone is actually no clone, it looks a whole lot different: Now, carefully look at the two pics above (and the pic of what I got). The first one has a "nicer" balance, with a regulatur and stamped with the ETA number on the edge of the movement, beside the balance (not very visible on this pic though), and also the senter of the rotor ball bearing is different. The last pic has a more simplified balance, the regulator looks more like a non-working and has no grading + or -. Also the senter of the rotor ball bearing is different. And, most important, even the rotor itself is different, look at the bad engraving with the OMEGA logo etc. Much nicer work on the so-called swiss movement. What I got, is this: And this; look at the permanent marker letters between the lugs! What does it say? VB++, does it mean "very bad ++"???;-) It was visible above the SEL; so I had do disassemble and wipe it off with alcohol... I will not name names. All I can say is this can happen to all of us. The people who ship the stuff, they may be using subcontractors working for our TD. Honestly, no one here believe the TD them selves actually sees or pack, or ship any watch? Sloppy control by the workers. I guess they do not know the different movement, but since We pay extra, it should be unneccesary for us to pay to ship back. It was not our mistake. But, we have chosen to use their service, and must follow their rules. At last, the movement is not good at all, when I pull the crown 2 clicks, it does not hack the momenent allways, almost like the cheap 21j highbeat movement on my DSSD. You have to push it in and pull it out several times before it hacks. Also it continues to wind the movement while screwing the crown back in. Not any such thing on a swiss movement. Only positive is, it winds quite smooth. But, as you also can see on the pics, the chock spring on the balance is of a far lesser quality than that of the claimed swiss movement. Also there is bad engraving on the clasp, not visible by the QC pics. And the inner engraving on the deployment says stainless steel, but this is the Ti model, and it sure is Ti! Also looks if the AR coting is scrached prior to shipping. So, to many issues for me to keep. Also, you cannot swap to swiss movement, the hands will not fit. Problably not the stem of the crown either. Since the "asian clone" is no where near any clone, clone means it should be identical, copy is better, copy means it is almost identical. So lets stop calling these movments clones. They are copies. Edited June 3, 2014 by Smab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droptopman Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Same experience. Bought a 1675 donor watch from a TD for my Franken GMT project. I upgraded and paid extra for Swiss eta. 3 times in emails asked dealer to ensure Swiss eta. QC pics did not have movement pics so asked again was assured Swiss movement. Watch arrived with.......not a Swiss movement. At some point he really needs to quit offering the upgrade since it appears he can't get it. Going to request the upgrade funds be returned. We will see. Sent from my droptop using telepathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Guys, you need to face the facts, the Chinese can't get new ETA movements, the ones that are available are being snapped up by every boutique watchmaker in the world. All these folks are paying top dollar for movements. They can afford to pay 200 bucks for a 2824, because it's going in and 800-1500 USD WATCH.The Chinese may come across a few movements, but they are cannabalizing older watches for the movements.there are a couple of good Chinese movement companies. Seagull is definitely on a par with ETA. Like others have said, DON'T SEND IT BACK!!! Get it serviced and it should be fine.. AFA the winding while screwing in the crown, that's not a movement problem, that's a stem length problem,or a crown problem and it can happen to ETA movements as well. A competent watchsmith can fix that problem at service. I wouldn't obsess over the way the movement looks, the best you could get in that rep is not going to look like an Omega movement anyway. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droptopman Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Pan 153, Yes I am now definitely convinced they cannot get Swiss eta's even though the dealer isn't. That watch is sitting on Matt's workbench. Matt who has been building watches since the 80's. Matt tells me it's not a Swiss eta I contact dealer and send pics of the movement looking for a partial refund on the Swiss up charge and he still says it's Swiss. So I send more pictures. He contacts factory comes back and says its Swiss. That is probably last time I buy from china. Sent from my droptop using telepathy. Oh and it's not Swiss Sent from my droptop using telepathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 "Guys, you need to face the facts, the Chinese can't get new ETA movements, the ones that are available are being snapped up by every boutique watchmaker in the world." Yes they are being snatched most micro brands changing over to 9015s or 8215s for 4-800 hundred and our guys are getting Swiss ETAs and selling 3-4 hundred, not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Pan 153, Yes I am now definitely convinced they cannot get Swiss eta's even though the dealer isn't. That watch is sitting on Matt's workbench. Matt who has been building watches since the 80's. Matt tells me it's not a Swiss eta I contact dealer and send pics of the movement looking for a partial refund on the Swiss up charge and he still says it's Swiss. So I send more pictures. He contacts factory comes back and says its Swiss. That is probably last time I buy from china. Sent from my droptop using telepathy. Oh and it's not Swiss Sent from my droptop using telepathy. Matt has probably forgotten more about movements than most people know!! If he says it ain't so, then it ain't so. The Chinese dealers may claim they are Swiss, but most people who are familiar with movements can tell the difference, and certainly if you have a genuine ETA Swiss on your bench, it's pretty darn easy to see the differences, and it doesn't take a 10X loupe to see them. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torobravo Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Guys, you need to face the facts, the Chinese can't get new ETA movements, the ones that are available are being snapped up by every boutique watchmaker in the world. All these folks are paying top dollar for movements. They can afford to pay 200 bucks for a 2824, because it's going in and 800-1500 USD WATCH.The Chinese may come across a few movements, but they are cannabalizing older watches for the movements.there are a couple of good Chinese movement companies. Seagull is definitely on a par with ETA. Like others have said, DON'T SEND IT BACK!!! Get it serviced and it should be fine.. AFA the winding while screwing in the crown, that's not a movement problem, that's a stem length problem,or a crown problem and it can happen to ETA movements as well. A competent watchsmith can fix that problem at service. I wouldn't obsess over the way the movement looks, the best you could get in that rep is not going to look like an Omega movement anyway. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Stop spreading false rumours again. Yes, chinese can get new ETA movement. But there is factory and factory. BP factory uses refurbished ETA movement the noob factory have new ETA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droptopman Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Yes exactly. He even took pics of a Swiss eta next to the clone which I sent to the dealer....I will say the decorations are nice:) unfortunately you never see them. Matt did say these movements are much better now than they were. Better parts and it is running good so I am going to use it...already over budget on the GMT but everybody knows that tune. Sent from my droptop using telepathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Stop spreading false rumours again. Yes, chinese can get new ETA movement. But there is factory and factory. BP factory uses refurbished ETA movement the noob factory have new ETA Maybe I should have rephrased that a little differently, they can't easily get ETA movements. I'm not spreading false rumors, just paraphrasing what the Swatch group is putting out for publication. And what exactly do you mean by "spreading false rumors again" emphasis on the word again? I do know for a fact that Bill Yao the owner of MKII Watches said a few weeks ago that a model that is soon to be introduced, a GMT homage to the Rolex 6542 was supposed to have a pre-order of60 watches and then another general order of 150, but because the movements were so difficult to get he was probably wasn't going to be able to make more than the 60 pre-orders and possibly 40-50 more. They are coming with ETA 2893-2 movements. AFA the refurbished movements, I'm sure they are probably more available than new, how many millions of 2824 and 2836 movements has ETA built over the years. My question to you is how refurbished are the "refurbished" movements? Are they disassembled, cleaned and oiled properly, timed and regulated? If they are then that's a good deal, because you are getting basically a freshly serviced movement. All this begs the question however, the OP said he paid for a Swiss movement, he claims that it's not. He wants to know what to do about it. Should he send it back or get the movement that's in the watch serviced? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 "BP factory uses refurbished ETA movement the noob factory have new ETA" Toro you sure about that, I just can not see it w/ the Swatch group cutting off everyone slowly but surely noob is getting them........... I will say this though the Sinn in the raffle was from Toro it had a stem/ winding issue I sent to misiekped, it was Swiss looking good per him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droptopman Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 @toro. Ok my bad. My experience with one dealer and one watch. Should not make general statements like that. I apologize for that. It is frustrating when you know what you looking at is one thing an expert confirms this, you send clear pictures but are told you are wrong despite the evidence. Certainly do not want to make conflict over a little $. Just wanted what I paid for. Sent from my droptop using telepathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Hey guys if you do not go over to our brother site RWGbz the guys are all opening their case backs checking movements (two threads going with SSteel /Micky checking them over in one) well the pitchforks are out some very unhappy campers............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Duplicate post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torobravo Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 "BP factory uses refurbished ETA movement the noob factory have new ETA" Toro you sure about that, I just can not see it w/ the Swatch group cutting off everyone slowly but surely noob is getting them........... I will say this though the Sinn in the raffle was from Toro it had a stem/ winding issue I sent to misiekped, it was Swiss looking good per him. Yes, I am sure about that as I am not only making reps I am into gens also which made in China and they all use gen ETA. The Swatch group is closed but wholesalers still have stocks for many years. The question is the movement new or refurbished/used. The problem is that BP factory doesn´t use Asian ETA at all, so don´t give you an option on swiss or asian. Again, you check all the China made boutique brands they still have gen ETA in 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smab Posted June 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Thanks guys for a lot of input. So the bottom line is: what is the claimed swiss movement in the pictures? (The one with the golden senter in the rotor)? What is the movement claimed asian clone that I got? Hangzhou 6301 (clone of ETA2824-2) or Sea-Gull ST2130 or something totally else? Anyway, I paid 413 USD (including freight) but was charged at my creditcard for 432 USD. The asian clone should cost 353 USD incl freight. I am scammed if I do not get what I paid for, or at least some sort of compensation. The cost for shipping back is almost the equivalent of the price difference for swiss and asian, meaning I end up paying some 120-140 USD extra for the "swiss" if I ship back. everything goes well and I get in return something that looks like the swiss in the dealers pictures..... Needless to say I have been a faithful customer for 6+ years and spent several thousand dollars on this dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smab Posted June 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Hi again. I notice from the different dealer pics of claimed swiss 2824-2, they all have the ETA stamp and the "2824-2" stamp just outside of the balance wheel. But as you suggest, it seems they are using whatever they can source, some standard or elabore and some top grade or chronometre ETAs. Difference is the "etashock (novadiac)" and "incablock" device on the balance ruby. The "incablock is identified beeing a two part ring around the balance ruby spring, but the etashock is a one piece ring. At least by visual check, the repmakers have been using both. The top and chronometre grade is supposed to have the incablock. Also there can be Elabore with Incablock and so on. Last but not least, there are diffent types of balance wheel. The socalled Glycidur has different spokes (flat and wider on the inside rim of the wheel). As one can see from the movement I got, it looks like bad workmansship, some of the holes for the screws are not perfectly circular, and the teeth of the wheel connected to the crown is significantly shorter than those on a gen ETA. The teeth on the Sea-Gull and Hangzhou movements, looks more like the gen ETA. This movement used here (By the BP factory) seems to be neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smab Posted June 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 Update: the claimed asian 2836 clone, is not that. It is the same movement as seen in the budget BP Rollies, the socalled "Asian 2813 new breed hibeat 25j 28.800" movement. It is a very cheap movment, the bad thing is this has ended up in a +300USD watch claming to be an Asian 2836 clone. I reckon all the BP PO Ceramic sold as Asian clone 2836 has the cheapy movement. Nothing worth keeping. This should have been sold at approx 200USD. Compare to the BP DSSD with the same movement, it goes at approx 218USD, sometimes also with free freight. Only difference is the 8500 decorated rotor and markings. See my post from today in the Omega section... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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