Mike on a bike Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 As always on this board which I consider the place for the senior guys (not in age but in thought process) of the rep world the discourse is kept in the bounds of civility even with disagreements on this hot button issue. Somewhere in all of our thoughts posted here is a logical path to follow. I do not claim to know it but it lies somewhere between sending in the B-52s from Diego Garcia and laying waste the enemy and hiding behind layers of security hoping they do not slip through I'll venture. Let us hope that the world both the west and Muslim find a way to make it work between us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Personally, like someone said earlier, I think the only real option is just get out of the middle east altogether.Sure guys like Sadam Hussien were barbaric but the middle east and Islam have lived that way for centuries, the problems have risen only when we try to force our democratic ways on them.Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droptopman Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Appreciate the civility and demeanor of the thread. No expert on foreign policy, I would suggest that whatever we are doing is not working. A different approach should be an option. I do agree with some others that the current leadership is not managing our affairs effectively, whether that is foreign policy, immigration or the budget (debt). I was not happy with the Iran deal and while not well read on the subject it just seems illogical to send them 150 billion dollars that we do not have along with all the other concessions we made. Pretty frustrating to watch the "news" these days. Not that I am a big believer on what is reported anymore. Tend to view most of what I see as propaganda rather than actual news. I try and find the facts through other sources.Part of me thinks we should just pull out of the east and stop trying to manage them or convert them to our ideology. The other part of me thinks we cannot just stick our heads in the sand and hope that things get better. Pretty mixed thoughts about what needs to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernow Posted November 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Personally, like someone said earlier, I think the only real option is just get out of the middle east altogether.Sure guys like Sadam Hussien were barbaric but the middle east and Islam have lived that way for centuries, the problems have risen only when we try to force our democratic ways on them.KenExactly. Just one problem. Oil. I don't see anyone complaining about North Korea and they're not exactly a model of Western democracy. Oops have I given the game away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 The spice must flow kernow all else is secondary. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernow Posted November 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 The spice must flow kernow all else is secondary.lol is that a quote from Frank Herbert's Dune? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 You know these are all sovereign countries, anyone wants their oil they should just pay for it.Of course the better option would to hasten the change to renewable energy.Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unreformed66 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 2012 August 5: Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting, he shooter thought they were Muslim, but I'm sure there were many who said close enough.You should also research before offering opinions as just from 2010 alone there has been around 20 domestic terrorist attacks on US soil of which the vast majority are perpetuated by Christians.KenThe Sikh temple shooting wasn't a terrorist attack, it was a hate crime. I see where they're saying all these attacks are by white Christians and Latinos, but I can't find a single news article where the attackers weren't Muslim except for the hate crimes and the far left environmental whackos (who are mostly white and athiest) who targeted buildings and equipment and so on. Please enlighten me with links to actual news stories because I've already wasted an hour looking and can't find any. All I can find are hate crimes and stuff that happened 20 years ago or better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
436NR Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 The Sikh temple shooting wasn't a terrorist attack, it was a hate crime. I see where they're saying all these attacks are by white Christians and Latinos, but I can't find a single news article where the attackers weren't Muslim except for the hate crimes and the far left environmental whackos (who are mostly white and athiest) who targeted buildings and equipment and so on. Please enlighten me with links to actual news stories because I've already wasted an hour looking and can't find any. All I can find are hate crimes and stuff that happened 20 years ago or better. One and the same! It depends how the media and local authorities want to report it. Call these terrorist attacks and the public goes into a panic. It's all about controlling the public and flow of information. SOP!!!Face it… the public is basically mushrooms! Kept in the dark and fed $hit!!! And that's the way the government wants it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Yes 436 "plans within plans within plans" , I gather you smell disinformation in the air as do I in the current happenings. Whatever keeps the oil flowing with the least amount of interruption will be the order of the day whether that is bombing them into the stone age (for a little while, make it look good) or a massive ground offensive (not, we tried that one) or sitting tight behind perceived security that will surely be breached while sending in special ops (most likely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 @ unreformed66 a guy walks into a cafe' in Paris and open fires on all he sees and it's terrorism, but a guy walks into a Sikh temple in Wisconsin and open fires at all he sees and it's a crime?You need to go back to your searching and exchange the word 'crime' with 'domestic terrorism' like your own FBI does.I do apologise for wasting an hour of your time but I did think that if it took me 30 seconds to type 'Domestic terrorism in the US' into Google others should be able too.All the same here is one link of very many for you.... http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.htmlKen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unreformed66 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) No, There's a huge difference in the Sikh temple shooting and what happened in Paris. The moron who shot up the temple didn't want anything. He was a mental incompetent who wanted to kill some people. He had no demands, no ideology, no rationale. And as to that link you sent I've just been perusing it. They classify JFK's assassination as a terrorist event. As a matter of fact they claim that pretty much EVERYTHING is a terrorist event regardless of the motivation of the perpetrators. While some could be argued between say terrorism or hate crime or political action, they're calling almost everything terrorism. Terrorism by definition must have a goal that they think they can achieve by their violent actions. Many of the things illustrated in that list simply don't. Many of them were just to work of complete crazies with no demands at all, or with no rational demands. They're calling the Navy Yard shooting a criminal act too. We all know the religion of the shooter, don't we? Yet they call the Sikh temple shooting right wing terrorism. I think they've got an agenda with their classification system. It's more than a little bit biased. Edited November 20, 2015 by unreformed66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
436NR Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 No, There's a huge difference in the Sikh temple shooting and what happened in Paris. The moron who shot up the temple didn't want anything. He was a mental incompetent who wanted to kill some people. He had no demands, no ideology, no rationale. And as to that link you sent I've just been perusing it. They classify JFK's assassination as a terrorist event. As a matter of fact they claim that pretty much EVERYTHING is a terrorist event regardless of the motivation of the perpetrators. While some could be argued between say terrorism or hate crime or political action, they're calling almost everything terrorism. Terrorism by definition must have a goal that they think they can achieve by their violent actions. Many of the things illustrated in that list simply don't. Many of them were just to work of complete crazies with no demands at all, or with no rational demands. They're calling the Navy Yard shooting a criminal act too. We all know the religion of the shooter, don't we? Yet they call the Sikh temple shooting right wing terrorism. I think they've got an agenda with their classification system. It's more than a little bit biased. Let me try to give you another example that may shed some light on "classifications". Norway, 2011, a man goes to a Muslim retreat and slaughters 77 people in cold blood. A nut… a psychopath…as crazy as Coco Puffs! Here it would've been classified a "Hate Crime". In Europe it's called Terrorism!!! Plain and simple! How is it different from the Sikh Temple shootings? A guy goes into a movie theater and shoots it up! Terror? You're damn straight! Terrorism is any act designed to cause terror. It's worth repeating… TERRORISM IS ANY ACT DESIGNED TO CAUSE TERROR. How many people were afraid to go to the movies? Yeah! That qualifies!ISIL beheading Christians, terrorism or hate crime? By your definition, a hate crime. It's not as simple as you want to think!Like I said in the very beginning, this is complex. The authorities and the media control how information is disseminated to the public. How else can they control us? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) Actually no you are defining how to grade these acts, the guy that walked into the Sikh temple may have been a moron because he was out to murder Muslims but what he did was an act of terror in anyone's eyes.I also assure you that while all those attacks on the list I showed you may have been committed by persons not in their right mind nearly all had political/religious reasons for their actions.Ken Edited November 20, 2015 by KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srouji Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 The radical Islamic state is terrible indeed BUT what about the Syrian people who are already facing this for more than 5 years?What happened in Paris is and stays unacceptable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcardoza Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 I feel for the Syrian people, I truly do. However, the mid-east does not welcome western interference. Why are the Saudi's doing nothing? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
436NR Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 I feel for the Syrian people, I truly do. However, the mid-east does not welcome western interference. Why are the Saudi's doing nothing? The Saudi Royal Family is barely hanging on to power. They're a heartbeat away from being driven out. My bet is that knowledge is going to keep them out of the fight. Saudi Arabia's #2 export? Radical Islam. Betcha didn't know that!Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernow Posted November 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 The Saudi Royal Family is barely hanging on to power. They're a heartbeat away from being driven out. My bet is that knowledge is going to keep them out of the fight. Saudi Arabia's #2 export? Radical Islam. Betcha didn't know that! Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYes, but they have oil. We in the West tend to overlook such complications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Don't kid yourself the discussion is about murder on a grand scale because in most of the opinions here there is no difference between a peaceful Muslim and a terrorist.KenKen - Murder on a grand scale is exactly what these Islamics have been threatening the west with for literally hundreds of years. Now, we can debate who started the Crusades until hell freezes over, but the fact remains that since at least 1978, Muslims have been threatening 'Death to America' & 'Death to Jews' & doing their best to make good on those threats. I just do not see anything similar coming from the west. In fact, it is because the west has been so civil in the face of this Islamic barbarism that it has not just continued, but snowballed. Sometimes, you really do have to fight fire with fire (as opposed to stern words & appeasement). Even Homeland gets it. All the same here is one link of very many for you.... http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.htmlKenThanks for the link, Ken. It demonstrates that nearly all of these violent terrorist acts were/are committed by leftists &/or religious fanatics (of all stripes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernow Posted November 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Religious wars have been going on for thousands of years. Whilst we in the West mention the crusades, there have been many many more Jihads than crusades.Where I live there is a public house, or bar if you prefer, that is called the Turks Head. A strange name for a pub in the far South West of England you may think. However, it is so named as Moors, or Turks as they were called at the time, would sail to the area capturing unsuspecting local fishermen and selling them as slaves. If these 'Turks' were caught they were beheaded. And we now have a nice pub to drink in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) Just out of curiosity @ freddy333 as you don't see any threats of murder on a grand scale coming from the west, exactly what is the preferred option that is being discussed in this thread?And no we do not need to go back to the Crusades but history does show that Christians have caused more bloodshed than any other religion, but again we are far more learned than that now, many of us recognise that atrocities were perpetuated by our ancestors that we of today would never do....but...but...Iraq, anything up to 200,000 innocent men, women and children killed!The link I gave served only one purpose and that was to show that many domestic terrorism acts were not perpetuated by Muslims, I could care less if many were leftist (although I think you are being a bit fast and lose there) because I am not a leftist in anyway shape or form. If anything my politics is much closer to center because I am a humanist but I do have a lot of issues with politicians on the right when they say they know more about climate change than the scientist, when they say they know more about religion than the Pope and when they claim morality while demanding to refuse Syrian refugees I find those kind of things an outright attack on my intelligence. A smart man should never link himself so tightly to a political party that they can dictate the way he thinks.Ken Edited November 20, 2015 by KB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
436NR Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Very well said…Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Well more : http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/20/africa/mali-shooting/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) Gents I think we have all said our piece here so I will be locking this up shortly. As we all spend most of our free time here unlike other boards which frown upon such topics I think it good for us to talk about important matters such as this. For myself want to get a sense of what others are thinking world wide I am surely not visiting the cross section of countries that our members are from. This in no way means we can not have a similar topic again if world events present themselves but at this point beating a dead horse. Edited November 21, 2015 by Mike on a bike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Gents I think we have all said our piece here so I will be locking this up shortly. Excuse me? There is no reason for you to lock this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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