philwongnz Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 I really don't understand this whole dilemma. I was a machinist for over twenty years (from before CNC was the norm). Every dimension today is programmed into the computer - I just can't understand how there can be this much "hit or miss" variation. B Don't think Vietnam is that advance. My dad knows both MQ and Phong's workshop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 "I really don't understand this whole dilemma. I was a machinist for over twenty years (from before CNC was the norm). Every dimension today is programmed into the computer - I just can't understand how there can be this much "hit or miss" variation." This is something I have always wondered about too. Ten or twelve years ago a guy who travelled around the southern USA selling replicas always had maybe 100 cheapo stainless steel 16610 type submariners and they were all exactly the same. Not true to oem maybe, but they all were exactly alike in every detail, every time he showed up. This proves it can be done and done cheaply...his watches were $50 or so each and a bit less in quantity. I still have maybe 10 submariners and 30 or 40 DJ left from back then that I keep for projects with Raffles Time sterile dials etc. The submariner cases have lug holes and the DJ have 'no hole' cases similar to what JMB offers but made for Eta 2836 instead of 2824 and come with DG 28xx, Seagull ST6D, and ST16 (no case clamp grooves though). Fast forward to 2016...why not take a genuine example of a 5513, program the measurements into a CNC setup and crank cases out for a few bucks each? If they are very close to genuine to start with there would be very little detail work. I have always believed a $1200 case is just a $100 case that was pretty close to oem to begin with that has been detailed. If a $1200 case still has to be detailed after it is purchased, why not just buy a Yuki case to begin with and detail it...or a $200 cartel watch? From what I have seen, the 'unfixable' tells are the case back stamping and engraving between the lugs anyway, not the basic contour of the case. I am perfectly happy with Yuki cases. Heck, I even like DW cases...wearing a DW '1680' right now with 1570, Yuki dial etc. Put it on because the date was right. I'll see how long I can stand to wear it (automatics are a real hassle compared to an Accutron II). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogeha Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Okay this is getting close to a pipe dream of mine. We are all paying through the nose for cases that are close, but not consistent or good enough. With the skills, knowledge and contacts the members have I would love to see us crowd fund project parts, be it cases or dials and maybe donate a small,percentage to the forum. I know Legend has the date wheel project going, but really it would be great to see more. like Bobandshawn says with modern technology it shouldn't be difficult to scan a good gen case and turn out copies all day long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 "like Bobandshawn says with modern technology it shouldn't be difficult to scan a good gen case and turn out copies all day long." I agree and it sounds good but 'highoeyazmuhudee' gave it a shot and iirc it was not easy at all. The case makers always seem to get close but not exactly what you want (by accident or by design) forcing a V1, V2, V3 and on and on. New cartel, MBK, or Yuki is probably the route to go until someone starts cranking out exact cases for $199. DW had '1680' cases that would accept genuine movements and dials for $199 or so but they were not real close to oem on the outside and the crystal neck was just a hair too small. They were made to a fairly high standard but they were just out of spec. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 4 hours ago, automatico said: I have always believed a $1200 case is just a $100 case that was pretty close to oem to begin with that has been detailed. I think you are probably overestimating the value of a properly made, blank 'Rolex' case, but mirroring what some have been saying for many years. Other than the dimensions, the only difference between the case used for a cheap Silex Sub & 1 of Phong's or MQ's cases is the money these aftermarket parts sellers charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mech500 Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 There should be no need for a v1, v2, v3 requirement when laser scanning and CNC'ing a Rolex mid-case. I can't think of a simpler object that I have had made in my line of work. Bezel ring and caseback is a tiny bit more complex to absolutely nail ......but there's no excuse for not getting the mid-case and CGs right with a CNC set-up. There's an initial tooling cost/investment ....but for $1500 a pop, there is no excuse for anything less than true 1:1. I think Phong's 16610 is true 1:1 but his vintage stuff is probably a rep of a rep of a rep that he "hand-finishes" using pictures (not actual side by side gen) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 "I think Phong's 16610 is true 1:1 but his vintage stuff is probably a rep of a rep of a rep that he "hand-finishes" using pictures (not actual side by side gen)." They probably are. "I think you are probably overestimating the value of a properly made, blank 'Rolex' case..." I have always believed a $1200 case is just a $10 case that was pretty close to oem to begin with that has been detailed. Fixed it. "Other than the dimensions, the only difference between the case used for a cheap Silex Sub & 1 of Phong's or MQ's cases is the money these aftermarket parts sellers charge." Agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacsah1 Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 for what its worth, I have notified Phong and his son of this thread. Lets hope they take all our concerns seriously and improve their product quality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imajedi Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 You should be able to CMM the gen case and then crank out perfect copies. The tolerance could be amazing. No excuse for crappy cases with today's technology. I think if you made a run of perfect copy 1675 cases maybe PCG, you could sell them for a nice price and sell out very quickly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperHero Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 I like where this convo is going as I too think it's silly that we cannot make them perfect each time with today's tech. Silly really. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 I prefer dealing with Jensen over Phong, at least when I asked him, Jensen always send me qc pics before. Phong on the other hand - never! same story: I explicitly asked for qc please pics and he just disregarded my request and send it anyways. 1200$ is absolutely ridiculous. Considering the hard parts that you cant so by hand are still far off (case back engravings - like for a Comex or DRSD). I looked into scanning one of mine and having it CNC'ed in China, but the MOQ is often 1000 pieces (of the same case!). Even at 10$ a case that's $10k investment. I have no interest in selling min. 100 cases to make that back and I have even less interest in turning this into a business. So I discarded that idea. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highoeyazmuhudee Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 the vietnam cases i dont believe are CNC'd. blank are pressed out and the lugholes and CGs are drilled via press and probably shaped with a wheel. tube holes and threads are also cut by hand using a tap. hand polished and brushed. explains the variation and turn around time 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandshawn Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 3 hours ago, highoeyazmuhudee said: the vietnam cases i dont believe are CNC'd. blank are pressed out and the lugholes and CGs are drilled via press and probably shaped with a wheel. tube holes and threads are also cut by hand using a tap. hand polished and brushed. explains the variation and turn around time No disrespect, but then maybe we shouldn't be counting on cases from Vietnam. Just look at the meticulously accurate super-reps that are possible from China. The Rolex case is not that difficult!?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mech500 Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 No disrespect, but then maybe we shouldn't be counting on cases from Vietnam. Just look at the meticulously accurate super-reps that are possible from China. The Rolex case is not that difficult!?!? Exactly. Rolex cases are very simple and uncomplicated. No excuses for not getting them spot on. If the Chinese can nail the complex modern AP causes then there's no reason why anyone can't nail a simple vintage Rolex case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwongnz Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Exactly. Rolex cases are very simple and uncomplicated. No excuses for not getting them spot on. If the Chinese can nail the complex modern AP causes then there's no reason why anyone can't nail a simple vintage Rolex case. Agree, it seems there isnt a market (well according to the rep makers it seems) to rep high quality or accurate vintage Rolex compared to some other modern models or brands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagnesky Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 I think the best thing to do is to support and work together with such makers as yuki and cartel to make their cases better. I think that they would appreciate if the forum would give them feedback. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickFlorida Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 This is the one thing I dont like about our hobby. Since it's illegal to create 1:1 replicas technically.......there are zero standards and the guys who make any replica stuff make up ridiculous prices. I have a feeling when you see the amazing pictures on vintage watches.com for example.......... You are seeing their own personal stuff and not the stuff they will make or send to you. Why don't we all just contact the factory who makes the new cartel 5513 cases and help them fix the few problems it has and we will never need 800 dollar replica cases? On 8/8/2016 at 9:57 PM, bobandshawn said: I really don't understand this whole dilemma. I was a machinist for over twenty years (from before CNC was the norm). Every dimension today is programmed into the computer - I just can't understand how there can be this much "hit or miss" variation. B Yes! Why the hell are we not 3d scanning a genuine case and just paying an online hub to CNC the case and mail to your door? 1200 phone case would be a 100 dollar perfect case. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 "Since it's illegal to create 1:1 replicas technically..." The patents are long dead on vintage rolex 5512/13, 1680 etc so making one that is 100% accurate to genuine is perfectly legal as long as it is not signed/trademarked. That is how ST and others get by with selling submariner and DJ cases. Otoh, super accurate trademarked cases are...expen$ive!...as we all know. The things that are hard to get right for non CNC shops would be the inner/outer bezel fit, proper flutes on the bezel, threads on the case and case back, lug hole location, inner machining for the movement to fit correctly, and case back stamping and engraving...stamping and engraving the rolex logo being the only thing that is illegal. My guess is many 'specialists' buy what is fairly close on the open market with stampings and then make it very close. I have a thread cutting device with automatic feed on my miniature lathe and with the proper cutter bit, case and case back threads can be precisely cut. It is nerve wracking but entirely possible. My guess is the case and case back threads in non CNC shops are done with a device similar to what I have if they do not buy parts already threaded. With a bit of practice, most of us could turn a case that is 'pretty close' into one that is 'very, very close' provided the stampings and engravings are good to begin or we have someone who can do the engraving. Case back stampings would be the hardest of all and it needs to be done before the case back is finish machined/polished. One reason I bought a few DW cases is that for the price, they have pretty good case back stamping and I use them on MBK cases. There was a catch (always is) and it turned out DW cases came with two different case/case back thread sizes no matter if supposed to be a 5513 or 1680 case and the case back thread sizes are random. Besides that, all DW cases are 1680 spec even if signed 5513. One size is oem/MBK spec and the other is a bit bigger. MBK cases are laser etched and look pretty bad compared to a stamped case back so DW case backs spiff them up a little. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogeha Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Automatico makes a very good point. As far as I am aware he is correct about vintage Rolex patents. So the way around is to look at having a genuine case scanned and CNC copied without engraving in a small batch. So far so legal. Then once the case is sold to a member, that member could have it engraved. If it is not for sale or profit and for one's own use, one can copy anything, trademark or not. Then the only legal problem is if and when an individual wants to sell a piece, but that is no different from the current situation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 12 hours ago, slay said: Phong on the other hand - never! same story: I explicitly asked for qc please pics and he just disregarded my request and send it anyways. My experience too. Unfortunately, ignoring (previously agreed to) pre-shipment QC pics seems to be 1 of the only things Phong is consistent with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highoeyazmuhudee Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 19 hours ago, bobandshawn said: No disrespect, but then maybe we shouldn't be counting on cases from Vietnam. Just look at the meticulously accurate super-reps that are possible from China. The Rolex case is not that difficult!?!? oh i agree, especially for the asking price. the latest version of the cartel case is actually pretty good and inexpensive. there are a few things i would like to see fixed though. i think the reason the chinese cases havnt refined the cgs is because they dont finish them by hand. they press and CNC, to make the CGs better is probably another layer of labour and attention added to each case. there is probably a reason that the factory cant make more refined CGs, like its beyond the spec of their machines or extra wear on parts to cut and those angles with more refinement. i will be traveling to china early 2017, maybe i can get some answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 oh i agree, especially for the asking price. the latest version of the cartel case is actually pretty good and inexpensive. there are a few things i would like to see fixed though. i think the reason the chinese cases havnt refined the cgs is because they dont finish them by hand. they press and CNC, to make the CGs better is probably another layer of labour and attention added to each case. there is probably a reason that the factory cant make more refined CGs, like its beyond the spec of their machines or extra wear on parts to cut and those angles with more refinement. i will be traveling to china early 2017, maybe i can get some answers Zziiiuziiiiiziiifffiiiiiiiiffiiiiiiiiiiifffiififiifiiiiiiiiiiiiiifiiifiiiiiiiiiiiifiiiijiiifuiuuiiiiififiiiiiiiiiiiiiifiijuiifuiiiiiiiifiiiffiiififiiiiiiififuiuiiiiifuiifififuiiiiiifuuffifuiffiifiiffifffiiiiiificiufiffuiiufuuiffiuiiiiiiifffiicuifczzzzzzzzz 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandshawn Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 10 hours ago, Nanuq said: Zziiiuziiiiiziiifffiiiiiiiiffiiiiiiiiiiifffiififiifiiiiiiiiiiiiiifiiifiiiiiiiiiiiifiiiijiiifuiuuiiiiififiiiiiiiiiiiiiifiijuiifuiiiiiiiifiiiffiiififiiiiiiififuiuiiiiifuiifififuiiiiiifuuffifuiffiifiiffifffiiiiiificiufiffuiiufuuiffiuiiiiiiifffiicuifczzzzzzzzz Cat sitting on the keyboard??? B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 26 minutes ago, bobandshawn said: Cat sitting on the keyboard??? B Nah, he lets Griz come in and use his computer for chatting when he's out and about... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 Dammit, Bobby was so proud of his catch he left it on my keyboard again. You have no idea the size hairballs I'll have to deal with tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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