case clamps and double sided tape to hold dial dilemma?

[Timelord]

 

Hello Fellow members,

 

I decided to put together a submariner case set which I bought from raffles a couple of years ago and finally got a chance to attempt to assemble it.  

 

All went well until it was time to try and screw in case clamps which came with the movement until I realized that they were way too short to hold under the interior of the case grooves.  I checked in my box where I kept this kit since 2014/15 to see if there were any that came with it but could not remember if they did or not so I  considered to make some out of old mainspring according to an old post I remember reading here.

 

Somehow I just could not get them right no matter how many attempts and alterations I did to them to fit properly from movement onto the groove of case wall as dial did not sit straight. Worse still you could see that the movement was not level. Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse, I then realized that the dial feet had broken off from my attempts on getting case tabs/clamps or whatever they are called over movement ring.  

 

I then tried to epoxy the dial feet that I had bought from ebay.  Again this was a failure as the same thing happened when I finally believe I may have got the case clamps/tabs right as they kept movement  well tight & balanced.  Now to the dial, I thought of getting double sided tape to stick the dial somewhere on the movement.  This was getting from bad to worse as I could not find a proper area over movt. where I could put adequate tape for the dial to hold on tightly at least until I secure the whole thing with case tabs/clamps?.  I hear and read of this technique a lot but is there something that I should know as I am now clutching my straws?

 

Also is there any tutorial that is either on this forum or anywhere else which can guide on making proper case tabs/clamps as I honestly believe that I must have fluked it in getting them right?  Also any imput on type of double sided tape or what has worked for anyone using this method?  Endless thanks in advance for any input!!!!

Edited July 31, 2018 by Timelord
Typo error

[automatico]

"I  considered to make some (case clamps) out of old mainspring according to an old post I remember reading here."

 

I have made quite a few sets out of steel automotive 'feeler gauge' stock.  They come in different thicknesses and are easy to drill and form to size.  Use the thickest gauge you can get by with but make sure it allows the winding rotor to clear.  Make sure the casing screws are long enough to fill the threads in the movement plate but not so long that they pass through and hit anything inside the movement. 

1...Drill the hole first.

2...Form the end with the hole in it first.

3...Trim to length and width.  I use a battery Dremel with a fiber cut-off wheel.

4...Bend the clamp if needed. 

5...If it does not want to start into the groove in the case. you may have to sharpen the tip of the clamp or grind a shallow notch in the spacer to lower the clamp.

 

One of the most important things is to have a movement spacer that is a precise fit around the movement and inside the case to keep everything in place when pulling/pushing on the crown.  The clamps help a lot but the spacer takes most of the side loads. 

Being able to mount the dial to the top side of the movement spacer is much better (imho) than mounting it directly to the top plate of the movement or a flimsy calendar spacer.  Depending on case clamp pressure to hold the dial in place may or may not work.  Otoh I have had so much trouble with dial dots that I have stopped using them to hold a dial in place.  I did use a few between the movement spacer and movement on my '1016' project to tighten the fit between the ID of the spacer and OD of the movement and to keep the dial and spacer from turning on the movement.  I glued the dial to the spacer with clear Gorilla Glue.  So far so good...

 

 

https://rwg.cc/topic/183724-dial-with-no-feet/

 

https://rwg.cc/topic/192105-jmb-1016-project-update/

 

https://rwg.cc/topic/167880-the-built-of-my-franken-rolex-explorer-i-ref-1016/#comment-1397861

 

[Timelord]

7 hours ago, automatico said:

"I  considered to make some (case clamps) out of old mainspring according to an old post I remember reading here."

 

I have made quite a few sets out of steel automotive 'feeler gauge' stock.  They come in different thicknesses and are easy to drill and form to size.  Use the thickest gauge you can get by with but make sure it allows the winding rotor to clear.  Make sure the casing screws are long enough to fill the threads in the movement plate but not so long that they pass through and hit anything inside the movement. 

1...Drill the hole first.

2...Form the end with the hole in it first.

3...Trim to length and width.  I use a battery Dremel with a fiber cut-off wheel.

4...Bend the clamp if needed. 

5...If it does not want to start into the groove in the case. you may have to sharpen the tip of the clamp or grind a shallow notch in the spacer to lower the clamp.

 

One of the most important things is to have a movement spacer that is a precise fit around the movement and inside the case to keep everything in place when pulling/pushing on the crown.  The clamps help a lot but the spacer takes most of the side loads. 

Being able to mount the dial to the top side of the movement spacer is much better (imho) than mounting it directly to the top plate of the movement or a flimsy calendar spacer.  Depending on case clamp pressure to hold the dial in place may or may not work.  Otoh I have had so much trouble with dial dots that I have stopped using them to hold a dial in place.  I did use a few between the movement spacer and movement on my '1016' project to tighten the fit between the ID of the spacer and OD of the movement and to keep the dial and spacer from turning on the movement.  I glued the dial to the spacer with clear Gorilla Glue.  So far so good...

 

 

https://rwg.cc/topic/183724-dial-with-no-feet/

 

https://rwg.cc/topic/192105-jmb-1016-project-update/

 

https://rwg.cc/topic/167880-the-built-of-my-franken-rolex-explorer-i-ref-1016/#comment-1397861

 

Automatico, your write up is pure brilliance and it has definitely given me a big breath of confidence.  Thanks with a capital "T"

 

My problem is holding the dial in place when I am mounting it in the case, because as soon as I gently push in the movement holder (yes it is the correct one for this case) or even try to screw down one of the clamps, the dial easily dislodges and one or all of the hands fall off the movement!!!!  I definitely think that the dial feet are paramount in holding onto the movement (even if they are just pressed in ) though once the movement is clamped in with the clamps and spacer actually keep it firm.  I almost panicked when I removed the movement out again after I had the clamps nicely holding it with the rotor clearing the screws, when the marked clamps didn't seem to fit back anymore.  This is when one goes to improvise and exceed the design limitations of what it was made for!!!! LOL!!!   I have dial dots and double sided tape but when you have only the rim of the movement to grip this, it leaves a pretty dim chance of it holding into place when one is trying to  Yes the dial spacer is cemented onto the dial as opposed to the movement, otherwise it would be  a nightmare

 

I am really disappointed with the dial as I originally bought another one because of the dial feet were damaged on the original only to end up with 2 dials that are !@#$!3!!!!

 

Much appreciated!!!!!

 

 

 

 

[horologist]

Damaged or missing dial feet on a dial is serious in my book!!

 

There is no real substitute but from that the real solution is to have them re-soldered and have the dial resorted because of the burn marks though the front of dial.  Brings 2 problems

 

1. It is expensive and risk having stains at the front of dial

2. It is a re-dial which makes it worth less

 

all that is a hazard for a genuine dial/ watch and how much worse for a replica!!!!!

 

I no longer do any new projects as I have tossed it all in since it became beyond reach.  I would have experimented  by doing the following:

 

Would it be possible to make an annulus from a blank dial made for a 2836 movement and keeping the feet on it. In other words, it could be used as a dial space which could be epoxied underneath the dial with damaged feet.  It might act as dial feet and as  a spacer from rubbing the DWO.  I would expect it to be stronger as you would have both axial and radial torque!

[Tribal]

You can get some Dialfeets that you can glue on the Dial.

 

[Timelord]

6 hours ago, Tribal said:

You can get some Dialfeets that you can glue on the Dial.

 

Thanks but I mentioned of them in my original message.  They did not work as they are as good as glueing the broken ones back! Then you have to get the precise as you cannot see the original stump which they broke off from

 

8 hours ago, horologist said:

Damaged or missing dial feet on a dial is serious in my book!!

 

There is no real substitute but from that the real solution is to have them re-soldered and have the dial resorted because of the burn marks though the front of dial.  Brings 2 problems

 

1. It is expensive and risk having stains at the front of dial

2. It is a re-dial which makes it worth less

 

Would it be possible to make an annulus from a blank dial made for a 2836 movement and keeping the feet on it. In other words, it could be used as a dial space which could be epoxied underneath the dial with damaged feet.  It might act as dial feet and as  a spacer from rubbing the DWO.  I would expect it to be stronger as you would have both axial and radial torque!

Totally agree!!!!!  I love your idea of the blank dial acting both as a spacer and dial feet! Very ingenious!

[alt.watch.obsessive]

It sounds like you might have the wrong movement for the spacer ring. A correct ring should hold the movement and not put pressure on the dial. Then, the whole assembly should be thin enough to go into the case and leave room for the case clamps to both clear the spacer and make it under the groove in the case. If you are using an ETA 2836 it may be too thick. Even a 2824 will be tough in certain cases. If you just put the dial and movement in the case, do the case clamps make it to the groove? They should. If so, you can sand away the case ring so it is thinner in those places. Also check to make sure the dial by itself fits in the case the way it should.

 

For the feet at this point I would try a proper solution:

 

1. There are glue on feet with a very large base available out of the UK if you search on here. You need to sand off any remainder of the old feet and use a two-part epoxy like you are. Ignore all other claims about anything else working . The tough part is you need to stand the feet in the movement (not all the way down) in order to set the dial on top so the placement is correct or find some other way to get this right. I have an old busted movement that I have used for this.

 

2. Dial dots sold specifically for the purpose of sticking the dial on the movement are actually quite strong and super thin. They are actually just little dots of pure adhesive. If all else fails and there is space on the top of the movement, they work reasonably well.

 

Good luck!

[Tribal]

Totally agree!!!!!  I love your idea of the blank dial acting both as a spacer and dial feet! Very ingenious!

So, it's totally easy if you get the right feets. The plates are thin and you have enough play to center the Dial on the movement. I've done it often in the past. You can also glue the Dial on the right dialspacer with no problem.

[Timelord]

 

5 hours ago, alt.watch.obsessive said:

It sounds like you might have the wrong movement for the spacer ring. A correct ring should hold the movement and not put pressure on the dial. Then, the whole assembly should be thin enough to go into the case and leave room for the case clamps to both clear the spacer and make it under the groove in the case. If you are using an ETA 2836 it may be too thick. Even a 2824 will be tough in certain cases. If you just put the dial and movement in the case, do the case clamps make it to the groove? They should. If so, you can sand away the case ring so it is thinner in those places. Also check to make sure the dial by itself fits in the case the way it should.

 

For the feet at this point I would try a proper solution:

 

1. There are glue on feet with a very large base available out of the UK if you search on here. You need to sand off any remainder of the old feet and use a two-part epoxy like you are. Ignore all other claims about anything else working . The tough part is you need to stand the feet in the movement (not all the way down) in order to set the dial on top so the placement is correct or find some other way to get this right. I have an old busted movement that I have used for this.

 

2. Dial dots sold specifically for the purpose of sticking the dial on the movement are actually quite strong and super thin. They are actually just little dots of pure adhesive. If all else fails and there is space on the top of the movement, they work reasonably well.

 

Good luck!

Thank you so much for your detailed  information!  Much appreciated to all who have responded!
 
I purchase the case kit from raffles around 2014 who has always provided me with satisfaction!  I also had the movement with the movement spacer etc,  Immediately after I had an unexpected death in the family which put me off the rails in every sense of the word  where I was not in the right frame f mind to enjoy this hobby.  I recently decided to pickup the loose ends and attend to this!
 
The movement holder is a size 1 raffles which I have never had any problems with.  The biggest challenge was the tabs/clamps which were trial and error  of a hit or a miss.  The first time after shaping them they fitted perfectly.  When I removed them to reposition the hands, it felt like a different watch as they just did not fit anymore even if I had labeled them for the right part of case.  I don't remember whether they came with the set or not as I was also moving homes and a lot of stuff went astray! Years ago, a watch supplier said to me that every watch case has them uniquely made for the movement and case and you will have problems if they are not the right shape or size.  He was also a watchmaker! I now see what he meant because I now have 2 ruined dials!
 
BTW what is the diameter of the glue on dial feet that you use on your eta 2836/2824.??
I know they come in all different diameters as well. Maybe I stuffed up with this!!  This is why I appreciate whatever feedback possible, no matter how trivial it may seem!!! Problem  is you cannot buy them as pairs, but you have to buy a whole set  which defeats the purpose for just one dial as it would sometimes  be cheaper it get a new dial.  
Thanks again!
 
 

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Timelord
Missing info