508-Fanatic Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 Hi All Considering some Rolex 904L rep's... what do we think about the quality/brilliance etc of the rep 904L (if it even is that) versus what they've used in the past and how it compares to genuine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 I don't know about our rep suppliers using the same steel as Rolex, now I know some of guys could test it (they have the know how) maybe they could. Read this, call me pessimist but I doubt it comes close. https://precisionwatches.com/rolex-904l-steel/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
508-Fanatic Posted August 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 25 minutes ago, Mike on a bike said: I don't know about our rep suppliers using the same steel as Rolex, now I know some of guys could test it (they have the know how) maybe they could. Read this, call me pessimist but I doubt it comes close. https://precisionwatches.com/rolex-904l-steel/ Makes sense - I would have to wonder what they're using? I'd love to see a 1:1 comparison with an older model versus newer 904L I have an older explorer rep, I'm considering ordering the new "904L" one just to see what the difference looks like - I don't have any friends or contacts that are metallurgists... maybe I could send a link off to one and see what they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribal Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 Not really noticeable difference in my eyes. I think 904L on reps are softer and easy to scratch like 316L. That's my opinion on this 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cib0rgman Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Tribal said: Not really noticeable difference in my eyes. I think 904L on reps are softer and easy to scratch like 316L. That's my opinion on this I agree with you. not even close to the real thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d4v3 Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 Some sister forums good reputation members send samples to analyze to a metallurgic lab and they came up as real 904L, the main property of such steel is corrosion resistant specially for salt water and sweat, not the color or "shine" as they say. I dont really know what to think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horologist Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 there are also different variations of 904L where the better quality variation only uses about 38% Iron and the one that just qualifies to be 904L uses 53% Iron. Obviously the less iron used the better in my opinion. there is nothing magical about 904l stainless as it is still a non noble metal alloy which will pit and corrode given the right conditions. For example anything with iodine or bromide salts found in spa baths will pit 904L. I was reading that even human urine will attack stainless steel by pitting. You may ask who would put their timepiece in urine? One can be surprised what gets onto your wrist with the types of movements and environments one is exposed to. The best method to see what type of 904L stainless your watch case is made from is to have an xrf analysis done which most metal disposal merchants would have! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickFlorida Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 This is so weird but I could have sworn I posted a reply on this thread about 2 weeks ago, did I say something bad and it got deleted? I'm genuinely asking and sorry If I did anything wrong. 6 hours ago, d4v3 said: Some sister forums good reputation members send samples to analyze to a metallurgic lab and they came up as real 904L, the main property of such steel is corrosion resistant specially for salt water and sweat, not the color or "shine" as they say. I dont really know what to think. Yeah, the real difference in how good 904L is to regular stainles is that it's slightly more resistant to acids and salts. But honestly, Rolex is just doing it to make their brand seem more exclusive, it's not a huge difference if I understand correctly. Like how Rolex says they make their own gold alloy, etc. It's not really better, more about being exclusive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted August 30, 2018 Report Share Posted August 30, 2018 "But honestly, Rolex is just doing it to make their brand seem more exclusive..." +1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribal Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 I have a ARF SD43 in 904L.It scratch easily and seems very soft material. It has a lot of small dings and scratches only from wearing.That's definitely not Oyster Steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
508-Fanatic Posted September 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2018 That is unfortunate but what I expected. Hopefully the rep dealers will stop using this soft nonsense steel as the ARF models are pretty great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altesporsche Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 On 8/30/2018 at 12:44 PM, horologist said: there are also different variations of 904L where the better quality variation only uses about 38% Iron and the one that just qualifies to be 904L uses 53% Iron. Obviously the less iron used the better in my opinion. there is nothing magical about 904l stainless as it is still a non noble metal alloy which will pit and corrode given the right conditions. For example anything with iodine or bromide salts found in spa baths will pit 904L. I was reading that even human urine will attack stainless steel by pitting. You may ask who would put their timepiece in urine? One can be surprised what gets onto your wrist with the types of movements and environments one is exposed to. The best method to see what type of 904L stainless your watch case is made from is to have an xrf analysis done which most metal disposal merchants would have! hmm im sorry but 904L is a an ISO standard and the variation in quality is nearly non existent. it is the composition that makes this a 904 alloy. it is highly resistant to corrosion hence why it was made. I use it in highly acidic environments in oil production. it was designed to be used with very strong acids. The 904 on reps has been tested and does fall into the specs of being called a 904L alloy, but people seem to think that it is a super alloy and it doesn't scratch etc.. its not its actually nearly identical to 316L but has different corrosion properties. People get all bent saying "its brighter" etc and that's horseshit. its not. the whiteness or brightness in the metal has to do with how it is brushed and catches light. my recent noob Daytona is 316 and it looks exactly the same as all of my gen Rolexes. Id like to know where you got your information on 904L because its very incorrect. if what they are usisng is actually 904L then like I said it will have the same scratch and dent resistance as 316 but it will be highly corrosion resistant to acids from your skin and just about anything you will throw at it.. 904L on a watch is mearly a marketing thing as 316L is perfect for watch material and like will outlast you. The reason rolex changed was to solve the pitting issues they had in the caseback around the seal area you seen in a lot of old subs that were worn in salt water and not rinsed off, over time this will pit 316L but a very long time. most of Rolexes reason was because it was exotic, hard to work with and no one else was using it. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 I wealth of information around here guys we have some very highly educated members horologist and altesporsche being two of them I will not go into the letters after their names . Wise in the ways of the rep world am I but I'm out of my league on this stuff.................. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 I think Sinn's 'submarine steel' is much more significant for its purpose than 904L 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altesporsche Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 6 minutes ago, swdivad said: I think Sinn's 'submarine steel' is much more significant for its purpose than 904L again another marketing ploy, however one which carries a lot of weight. Tegimentation of stainless steel while does not effect the corrosion properties does effect its resistance to damage of all forms. Tegimentation is a process of surface hardening alloys to become very very resistant to scratches and dents. In the case of SINN they take a 316L with a vickers hardness of about 250 and bring it up to 1200+ Vickers which is insanely hard! its a very impressive tech and for those who complain about scratches these are the watches for you lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 And the Seiko and Citizen specs: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horologist Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 9 hours ago, altesporsche said: hmm im sorry but 904L is a an ISO standard and the variation in quality is nearly non existent. it is the composition that makes this a 904 alloy. Id like to know where you got your information on 904L because its very incorrect. Well I do not intend to create a debate here as I prefer to listen rather than talk! I learn a lot from everyone here! I have the Avesta Sheffield reference handbook and the outukumpu handbook which we used at the University of Adelaide in the materials science and metallurgy department that although you are correct to state that the ISO standard designates a particular grade of stainless steel, it is also statistical and subject to the probability of different environments and other oxidants present. just reference this online link http://www.atlassteels.com.au/documents/Atlas Grade datasheet 904L rev May 2008.pdf and refer to page 2, for % composition of 904L stainless steel which you will see that there is a minimum and maximum of different variations of other elements/metals present . There are many factors that determine how and where it corrodes including other issues like CPT (critical pitting temperature) which really has nothing to do with the temperature but purely laboratory measures. You will find that 6Mo would have been a better choice. 904lL has copper and is high in molybdenum 9 hours ago, altesporsche said: but it will be highly corrosion resistant to acids from your skin and just about anything you will throw at it.. 904L Try hydrochloric acid and let it seep rough the case back and let me know? 9 hours ago, altesporsche said: The reason rolex changed was to solve the pitting issues they had in the caseback around the seal area you seen in a lot of old subs that were worn in salt water and not rinsed off, over time this will pit 316L but a very long time. Sorry to disappoint you, but I owned a 2002 Datejust with a 3135 movement that had very dark holes in the gasket groove of the mid case that looked like as if termites has eaten into it. This was the worst pitting I have seen on any watch. I am currently trying to find a photo which I had in photobucket to post, as soon as I find it, I will post it here. To epitomise all this, yes 904l is subject to corrosion given the right conditions 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horologist Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) Forgot to include the online corrosion table from outokumpu who are amongst the world leading specialist in stainless steel. Here you will find a list of various chemicals tested against different grades of stainless steel and how they rank in terms of corrosion http://steelfinder.outokumpu.com/corrosion/ 904lL was specifically designed for the pulp industry and for transporting sulphuric acid. Anything with halides such as chlorides, bromides etc will be a threat to stainless depending on concentration. Iodine in ink and iodine tincture for example will be good contenders for attacking 904L. For example thiosulfate solution with high chloride ions will cause pitting of 904L. Human blood will tend to pit 316L but not 904L, so for this it would be better in case you cut yourself and blood will creep via case back under the seal. Always wash your 904L submariner with clean water straight after coming out of a spa bath, which uses bromide (halide again) salts and you will minimise risk of pitting. For the same price of a 904L rolex you could buy an 18k solid gold star supply submariner case and have an even better corrosion resistant "Rolex submariner". This is where a Franken sub would be better in terms of corrosion and scrap metal than one 904L coming out from Rolex headquarters in Geneva Edited September 7, 2018 by horologist Typo errors 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 "For the same price of a 904L rolex you could buy an 18k solid gold star supply submariner case and have an even better corrosion resistant "Rolex submariner." The only 904 rolex watches I might have owned were approx 2010 14000M/14010M Air Kings and none of them showed any signs of corrosion. Really do not know for sure if they were 904 or not. I have seen a lot of corroded genuine 316 rolex cases though. A lot more than I would have expected to see when I was a budding rlx fanboy in the early 1970s. I thought they were bulletproof back than. I no longer believe that. Sorta off topic... Way back when gold was much more affordable, I gathered up quite a few 14k and 18k watches including a few rlx models. Not one of them had any corrosion at all other than collecting a mild blemish that sometimes appears when stored. What really surprised me was how good the overall case condition was on almost all of them. Some were 50+ years old when I got them and the dials, crowns etc showed it but the cases were mostly in good shape. I doubt many owners would abuse a gold watch but the condition still surprised me. It turned out (in my experience) that gold watches are quite a bit more rugged than I would have suspected when I started out. Gold watches are good for everyday wear as long as you remember what you have on your wrist. Otoh I have seen a large number of badly worn gold bracelets of all brands. Btw...in 2001 an 18k ST DJ case was a little over $800 and a submariner case was about $1200. I bought a DJ case for a 3035 but never got a submariner case. Now they are almost 4X that much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altesporsche Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 That's a lot of referencing and it may have took you a while to write and look that up and its appreciated for the information of the community here, but I wasn't arguing with you.. just pointing some things out.. I have zero desire to have a pissing match with someone on a forum especially not someone who has all the time in the world to dig up stuff online to make a point. My experience comes from actual use and familiarity with the materials, ive used it many times in my 12 years as an Engineer in several different industries. The concentrations of most chlorides, bromides etc.. you are so hell bent on being a threat are in concentration levels that would burn your skin long before attacking the stainless steel.. you would have to have the perfect scenario to attack the stainless without burning your skin.. at this point you are splitting hairs with facts you dug up online and essentially regurgitating them while not understanding what you are saying. Everything you said above is correct, however like I said the concentrations of each of these materials you say will pit 904L will burn you or cause severe skin irritation long before it pits the steel. Maybe over time it will have an effect but again its unlikely with how people use watches. You keep pointing out fancy names to make your point lol Thiosulfate is an oxyanion of sulfur and its solution is used for treating cyanide poisoning.. I don't know how many here handle cyanide all the time that will require a strong solution of thiosulfate, again something the majority of people will not have contact with this in normal circumstances.. Try hydrochloric acid ? i'm not even sure what you mean there... as in pour hydrochloric acid a substance that is highly corrosive to your skin on my watch case and see what happens ? lol no thanks.. anyways as I said im not getting into a pissing match with you.. my original point was that 904L does not have a big variation in quality.. every material has upper and lower composition limits to be considered within the ISO classification. It was also not specifically designed for the pulp and paper industry, it was developed for many industries that require reduction with heavy acids. I used it in pulp and paper (yes I worked with pulp and paper factories all over the east coast of Canada) and now use it a lot in Oil production and drilling when we are using acids to etch formations down hole. in conclusion 904L is highly unlikely to be pitted with how 99.9% of people wear their watch, daily diving etc.. 316L honestly does a fantastic job but in time will see pitting in areas of contact. 21 minutes ago, automatico said: "For the same price of a 904L rolex you could buy an 18k solid gold star supply submariner case and have an even better corrosion resistant "Rolex submariner." The only 904 rolex watches I might have owned were approx 2010 14000M/14010M Air Kings and none of them showed any signs of corrosion. Really do not know for sure if they were 904 or not. I have seen a lot of corroded genuine 316 rolex cases though. A lot more than I would have expected to see when I was a budding rlx fanboy in the early 1970s. I thought they were bulletproof back than. I no longer believe that. Sorta off topic... Way back when gold was much more affordable, I gathered up quite a few 14k and 18k watches including a few rlx models. Not one of them had any corrosion at all other than collecting a mild blemish that sometimes appears when stored. What really surprised me was how good the overall case condition was on almost all of them. Some were 50+ years old when I got them and the dials, crowns etc showed it but the cases were mostly in good shape. I doubt many owners would abuse a gold watch but the condition still surprised me. It turned out (in my experience) that gold watches are quite a bit more rugged than I would have suspected when I started out. Gold watches are good for everyday wear as long as you remember what you have on your wrist. Otoh I have seen a large number of badly worn gold bracelets of all brands. Btw...in 2001 an 18k ST DJ case was a little over $800 and a submariner case was about $1200. I bought a DJ case for a 3035 but never got a submariner case. Now they are almost 4X that much. Gold is a fantastic material for watch cases and plat is even better lol I just cant get into wearing a gold watch I feel really odd lol If I could get a white gold watch case that isn't $35grand id be all over it as a daily watch :P 19 hours ago, Mike on a bike said: And the Seiko and Citizen specs: That's a pretty cool chart ! I love seeing things like this. works perfect as a quick reference for people trying to understand subjects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
508-Fanatic Posted September 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2018 Most A. Lange & Sonne watches give me 1200 vickers of hardness. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horologist Posted September 8, 2018 Report Share Posted September 8, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, altesporsche said: That's a lot of referencing and it may have took you a while to write and look that up You asked where I was getting my information from and as a former research assistant, information such as this is quite trivial for me to easily reference from my library and sources that it took nowhere near the amount of time to make a coffee.. I am taking more time in looking for that photograph of my 904lL pitted Datejust to post for others to see. When I was an undergraduate we had to reference all bibliography and any information that was not original research. In other words we had to state facts and not opinions. 6 hours ago, altesporsche said: I wasn't arguing with you.. just pointing some things out.. I have zero desire to have a pissing match with someone on a forum My opening comment was "I do not intend to create a debate here as I prefer to listen rather than talk! ". I.have been a member here for some 10 years and have posted less than 200 times and I would agree to "black being white " purely to avoid an argument. I value any input from all members of this forum as we all have something to offer in this esoteric forum and enjoyed your posts too 6 hours ago, altesporsche said: The concentrations of most chlorides, bromides etc.. you are so hell bent on being a threat are in concentration levels that would burn your skin long before attacking the stainless steel.. Yes true, but concentrations of ions can increase over time when the aqueous state dehydrates. If I am perspiring in a hot day, the concentration of salts in sweat will be higher upon dehydrating as mass per volume of fluid will be higher. This is high school physics!! Over the years you will have a build up of salts if you do not rinse the exposed item with clean water. Hope this makes sense as you hammer me for regurgitating and splitting hairs with facts dug up online and essentially not understanding what I am saying. 6 hours ago, automatico said: "For the same price of a 90It turned out (in my experience) that gold watches are quite a bit more rugged than I would have suspected when I started out. . Totally agree!, very true!!! i prefer white gold as I do not like the cosmetic side of yellow gold because it represents jewellery. Gold is as resistant to acids more than any steel. My understanding is that aqua regia attacks gold but that surely will attack us before it attacks gold . My ideal watch would be a submariner with a mid case in platinum ( for hardness) with a white gold back being softer to match the color and to protect it stripping the mid case in addition to protecting it from seizing. Above all it would be free from typical corrosion and would go up in value even just for scrap metal How rolex company treats us with spare parts, there is more chance of attending al live John Lennon concert Edited September 8, 2018 by horologist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horologist Posted September 9, 2018 Report Share Posted September 9, 2018 Lastly, as I said I hate debating and wished I had this picture a lot earlier to spare all the subsequent words. A picture tells 1000 words or perhaps even more!!!! This is a 904L stainless steel case with a 3135 movement Upon removing the case back seal, it is evident that these holes were not made by termites, but surely is a form of corrosion. I will let the viewers decide as to what it is, but I guarantee that it is not fly Sh*t either!!!!! It may not have been caused by H2SO4 nor HCL or even S2O3(2−) but even less aggressive oxidants in the environment which prove that 904L is nothing special. I think most of us here expect it to be as inert and noble like Gold or Platinum. . If that were the case the metallurgist who designed it would be richer than Rockefeller. Rolex could have used a titanium case instead of this 904L gag 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eazye Posted September 9, 2018 Report Share Posted September 9, 2018 Rep and gen 904 are very white but rep has a brown hue ([censored] color) in certain lights gen is blue. Some may disagree but it’s easily seen when next to each other. Put two bands on top of each other under 5k lighting and look at the sides. You will see it quick. I’m sure it has to do with the purity and source of the materials. It’s been said before with people that deal regularly with metals. The stuff from China may be the same composition but it’s definitely not the same quality... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
int905 Posted September 9, 2018 Report Share Posted September 9, 2018 I have compared a $418 noob V8 sub with a $528 Noob v9 904L steel, and would personally go for the V9, simply because of the better engravings and the better datewheel, not because the steel is "better".I have found no difference in steel. The "story that 904 is much more shiny, brighter, etc" is bs (or marketing), as 316 steel can be finished much brighter than the 904 steel's noob/vrf/etc's factory finish somewhere in the swiss alps of Guangzhou, in the end of the day its about the final finish and what methods are used. (I am not going to get into the details of each particle, molecule, and reactions of these metals, as I am sure by the time its called for that, by then the movements will chew itself within time).However, when one places a v8 and v9 (904) next to each other regardless of the sun, neon, or any other lighting there is absolutely no difference and they both look the same.Second, they even said that the v9's bezel is constructed from a GEN sample that also is a hoax as there is no difference between the v8 and v9 bezel. It's the same bezel construction. Just difference in engraving (namely inner end links, and rehaute), and different datewheel. ( compared in August 2018 - every batch they change something slightly).Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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