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The cartel has increased its power, and prices


swdivad

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Imagine a world where the reps are all exactly the same price across all dealers... (do do do do, do do do do (twilight zone music))

 

Methinks there's a new cartel in town, and it ain't just a couple of trusted dealers anymore.

 

example:

https://www.intime03.co/rollie/5476-pre-order-daytona-116520-904l-ss-case-noob-1-1-best-edition-black-dial-on-904l-ss-bracelet-sa4130.html
https://puretime.io/daytona-116520-noob-1-1-best-edition-904l-ss-case-and-bracelet-black-dial-sa4130.html
http://www.trustytime.biz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=352&products_id=19155
https://www.ts-station.cn/goods.php?ProId=24763

... and the list goes on and on

 

And it's not just the pricing... Now we are forced to wait and wait while they stifle production, increase wait times, and increase prices due to rarity of the item... just like Rolex, Patek, and AP do.

 

$658 for a rep Daytona?! (ok, ok, it has a clone movement is a step up, but it's still a rep)

$488 for a rep AP chrono with faux chronos!?

$698 for a rep RM??!!

$478 for a ceramic bathyscaphe?!

... and the list goes on and on

 

We're in the middle of another price wave. Is it time to go back to buying gens, or have the chinese won against switzerland yet?

 

 

 

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Who would pay that kind of prices for reps? $658 is a laughable price for a Chinese knockoff. You can get a nice used vintage Omega for that kind of money.

 

Personally, I just stopped buying them. They are fun watches for $200 or $300 but that's where the limit is (for me). Reps are fun but they have no real value and even finding someone who services rep Rolexes can be tough.

 

And while some of the reps are very accurate they will never have the details of a gen. 

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I just spent $658 usd for a 904l 116520. 

As much as i believe that sanity should kick in at certain price points (especially for franken projects), i am willing to pay that much for the one-of-its-kind 4130 clone movement - it's a milestone and it's unique to everything that i have ever owned. Also, the feedback received from RWI's watchmakers is very positive so far, and not to mention, $658 is just a small percentage of the overly-hyped market price of the gen equivalent. 

People used to pay similar prices for WM9 and TC too

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Well, I did some stupid moves in this hobby like putting 2K of parts in a franken that doesn't even had that much gen parts.
Money wise, it's insanity and I would never do it again neither buy a rep over 200 if I had still some decent income.
But I had a great time here with some of you guys building these great watches.

I owned gen, for example 1680 or 16800 and had reps build of the exact same models: I would go for the reps I sold here rather than the gens at the prices they are now.
I paid my 1680 (White, full box, paper, service history...silver date wheel, 9315....) less that 4 k (€). They go for 10k to 15k now....ridiculous.
My rep 1680 which is the last one I sold costed me around 1,700 and in my humble opinion was as good/nice as my gen was.

Gen vintage is too high now anyway!
If I ever want and can afford a 1680, I would buy mine back (if the buyer would sell it of course) 😂

In the end I wonder why I went for gens, wasn't it to feel superior, better than, show off ?
For sure, what attracts me in a watch is the design, not the "in house movement" rather than a cheap Chinese one.

 

For the record, a friend of mine from RWG offered me what he calls a cheap Chinese Rolex recently. It's running within COSC standards and it has the design even with the various tells for your expert eyes!
And guess what: two persons came to me to tell me I had a great vintage Rolex (which never happened with my gens by the way).

One of them even told me "It's a 1978 one I think, you shouldn't have it polished" 
Go figure 🤣

 

Bottom line: out of the box rep, 2-300€ is fine, more is ridiculous.

 

Photos of My 1680 and 16800 and 16610 and so on

 

 

 

 

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I'm genuinely considering purchasing one of these SA4130 clones. I have always lusted after a Daytona but can't bring myself to plunk down the $10-12k for a nice one. My gen range is in the $3.5k to $5k range, that's where I live. That said, I'd be happy with this until someday in the future I can discreetly just "swap it out" for a gen... :) 

 

https://puretime.io/watch-brands/rolex/daytona/daytona-116520-noob-1-1-best-edition-904l-ss-case-and-bracelet-white-dial-sa4130.html#

 

 

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I say that whatever makes you happy and nobody is being hurt here including yourself - then go for it!  If I had to choose between starving my family and spending this kind of money on a rep or genuine or any other non priority, then we all know the answer to that one!

 

Lets face it, these ridiculous prices for genuine vintage timepieces as well, are very irrational when one reflects that all they are is a chunk of steel fabricated into a product no more than 100grams! As for ones made of precious metals, then the subject is slightly different!! BUT as with any item that commands a high premium, it is market driven by the same old law of demand and supply!  Period!!!!

 

Coming back to the discussion of a replica, it is basically the same thing minus the quality control factor, which for me a replica made of same material is no less than a sterile brand watch with an eta mechanism, which is fancied up with having some label on the dial!

 

A replica with a Swiss quality eta fitted with a sterile dial would be the equivalent to a low end Tissot!  I therefore would only pay as much for a replica as I would for a low end Tissot!  As for dressing it up by putting a dial from any other brand or trimming the case to imitate the genuine image would be additional features that should cost accordingly!  This would be my limit and would be far cheaper than a months supply of cigarettes!

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Guys as you know from my rare post of pics I buy mostly gens. I recently picked up a Ball for a wee bit more than a rep. Lord knows I still have plenty of reps but in truth my cheap quartz ones are just fine to play with (surely have high end ones also), now they may be obvious to our guys but out in the real world just fine. If your going to blow 2-3 grand on a vintage that cost 60 to 100 k well that makes sense to me ( been there done that many times) blowing 4-7 hundred on a V whatever not so much. If  I felt I really had to have a gen Rolex or whatever I could sell off a good chunk and get it, WTF is the fun in that I am a WIS I like to have many & my interest changes like the wind it's like trading baseball cards.

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17 hours ago, indywatchguy said:

Yeah the prices have gotten ridiculous! I would say the value is in owning for your pleasure and when you’re bored flip it. So @By-Tor are you officially out of the rep game?

 

 

 

 

Not really. I have many nice gens of all models that I ever wanted (and more). But if I see a reasonably priced good, used rep, I might go for it. :)

 

Only those WM9/TC Subs might be worth a bit more than standard reps but a rep Daytona for $658? That's just absurd.

 

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5 hours ago, 508-Fanatic said:

I'm genuinely considering purchasing one of these SA4130 clones. I have always lusted after a Daytona but can't bring myself to plunk down the $10-12k for a nice one. My gen range is in the $3.5k to $5k range, that's where I live. That said, I'd be happy with this until someday in the future I can discreetly just "swap it out" for a gen... :) 

 

https://puretime.io/watch-brands/rolex/daytona/daytona-116520-noob-1-1-best-edition-904l-ss-case-and-bracelet-white-dial-sa4130.html#

 

 

I'm with ya man... over 5k is out of bounds for me these days, building a house and saving for retirement

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We used to have an "unwritten rule" that you always have to sell the rep cheaper than you invested. Or maximum get your own money back. 

 

In the old days I bought this franken-Explorer for 350 Euros from a fellow member. This had a GEN DIAL, correct hand stack and brilliant Noob case. He just wanted to sell it to me because I probably helped him in some other issue. Can't remember. But it was all about friendships and moving cheap knockoffs for cheap prices... and HAVING FUN.

 

Otgfs4V.jpg

 

At some point it changed and standard out of the box reps didn't get much attention anymore. It had to be "perfect" franken and a lots of money invested. And the dealers increased their prices significantly. That's when I started to lose interest. Why buy a $1K franken when you can buy very nice gens for $2K? I bought my gen Bond Seamaster for 1000 Euros. People invest more money on franken-build vintage Rolexes that still don't fool the experts. What's the point?

 

 

Trusty Time is asking $368 plus shipping for THIS. I mean really, I can understand paying that much money for a WM9 but this is a JOKE. And very bad one at that.

I wouldn't pay $5 for this piece of shit. 

 

Let me see... they have installed spiky Submariner crown guards to a GMT and thick GMT-like crown guards on a Sub. That's just pure genius. 

 

Blind people could tell this is a fake... from another planet. This is just laughable.

 

And $386 plus shipping. You gotta be kidding me! :D
 

veBwOWZ.jpg

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Many who joined this hobby years ago knew that the quality of what was being offered was worth $100-300 max. The joy was connecting to other members and modding the watches to our tastes and in regards to the gen article.

 

Remember the old Pams? Having to buy separated crowns, crownguards, dials etc etc. It was joy in itself and within decent price ranges.

 

Then came the change in the pricing strategy in the gen world. After 2010, demand for luxury watches went through the roof, and so did the pricing in both the modern watch and vintage watch world.

 

This spilled over to the rep game. But this increase can also be partially put down to the fact that rep factories have improved tremendously to give us watches that are near perfect out of the box. So much so, that i would never buy the gen article of certain reps. I,e. many Pams, some IWCs and Blancpains etc etc. 

 

I stick to reps that are reasonably priced, well made and out of people's eyes.

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I dumped a ton of cash into a ‘66 Gilt PCG 5513 build and then traded it for a basically gen 16610 super Franken because it wasn’t perfect and it annoyed me. Then I lost money on that too. Live and learn. No more high-end franken’s for me. Just picked up Lawton’s Pam029 with ETA (same movement that was in gen, albeit tweaked a bit in gen) and a gen strap. That’s about what I’m good for these days. 

9 hours ago, By-Tor said:

We used to have an "unwritten rule" that you always have to sell the rep cheaper than you invested. Or maximum get your own money back. 

 

In the old days I bought this franken-Explorer for 350 Euros from a fellow member. This had a GEN DIAL, correct hand stack and brilliant Noob case. He just wanted to sell it to me because I probably helped him in some other issue. Can't remember. But it was all about friendships and moving cheap knockoffs for cheap prices... and HAVING FUN.

 

Otgfs4V.jpg

 

At some point it changed and standard out of the box reps didn't get much attention anymore. It had to be "perfect" franken and a lots of money invested. And the dealers increased their prices significantly. That's when I started to lose interest. Why buy a $1K franken when you can buy very nice gens for $2K? I bought my gen Bond Seamaster for 1000 Euros. People invest more money on franken-build vintage Rolexes that still don't fool the experts. What's the point?

 

 

Trusty Time is asking $368 plus shipping for THIS. I mean really, I can understand paying that much money for a WM9 but this is a JOKE. And very bad one at that.

I wouldn't pay $5 for this piece of [censored]. 

 

Let me see... they have installed spiky Submariner crown guards to a GMT and thick GMT-like crown guards on a Sub. That's just pure genius. 

 

Blind people could tell this is a fake... from another planet. This is just laughable.

 

And $386 plus shipping. You gotta be kidding me! :D
 

veBwOWZ.jpg

The OOB vintage reps are horrible and I have seen some people trying to part with high end franken’s on here lately with no success. I feel like with the addition of mid-level boutique brand gen pieces it gutted the upper level franken market, am I wrong? 

 

The new manufacture movement tudors are only like $3-$4k but I suppose everyone has their own financial lane. 

 

Would you rather wear a genuine $4k watch or a $4k franken of a $60k watch... that is a big discernment point for today’s community imho

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"The OOB vintage reps are horrible..."

 

Agree.  Wearing one now, cartel '5513' with a Seagull ST16.  Put a Clark crystal and DW bez kit on it and drilled the lugs.  It looks a little better.  Not much. 

It might fool a kid who had never seen one. 

Got tired of it running down overnight so I removed the winding rotor/plate, 'pullybone' etc and hand wind it.  Now I wonder what will wear out first...winding guts or crown/tube?

 

 

"...and I have seen some people trying to part with high end franken’s on here lately with no success."

 

I have noticed they are not selling in a hurry and it does worry me a little because I have a few.  May have to part them out later on.

Otoh a guy looking at an average (or below average) 5512 for $12k might pay $2500 for one in an MBK case with 1570 etc and wear it for years with little ri$k.

Look who's talking...I'm wearing the cartel '5513' to keep from banging up the '5512' Franko...

Insanity.   :crazy:

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What is with the factories that they can't make a proper vintage Rolex / Tudor? Very simple watches.

 

How can they put Submariner crown guards to a GMT and have balls to ask $400 for that piece of dog turd? :D

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Who remembers Paul's "CARZY SALE" (sic)? They were all $100. :D

 

Then there was Kingwatch, Eddie Lee and River (who got the "better" TW stuff).  And of course Neil (RIP). 

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"Who remembers Paul's "CARZY SALE" (sic)? They were all $100.  Then there was Kingwatch, Eddie Lee and River (who got the "better" TW stuff)."

 

I still have some watches from Watchlover David, Paul, and River.

WLD...sapphire no date sub (swisseta)

Paul...vintage sub, sapphire exp I, sapphire GMT, 36mm 'too big' sapphire AK, 1655  (all swisseta)  slightly oversize manual wind Daytona  (ST19)

River...sapphire exp II, 16600 SD  (both swisseta)

 

 

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CrazySaleMan (is he Paul??) does pop in from time to time. I remember a few years ago I forgot my watch at home and in my moment of panic he showed up and offered to save the day with his New Wrist Wrap Watches. default_thumbsup.gif

 

https://rwg.cc/topic/57992-crisis-panic-emergency/

 

 

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12 hours ago, Lobster said:

Many who joined this hobby years ago knew that the quality of what was being offered was worth $100-300 max. The joy was connecting to other members and modding the watches to our tastes and in regards to the gen article.

 

Remember the old Pams? Having to buy separated crowns, crownguards, dials etc etc. 

Ditto, and especially because the genuine were way out of reach for most of us (and pretty unknown) and lots of good knowledge raised from the collective effort on building and modding; from the early steps of producing cases from scratch (or from base material provided by Eddie, River and David) to a rhodium disk detail. :)

2 hours ago, By-Tor said:

 And of course Neil (RIP). 

?!? 

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On 10/22/2018 at 7:25 PM, swdivad said:

Methinks there's a new cartel in town, and it ain't just a couple of trusted dealers anymore.

What we know is what we see :)

our trusted dealers were the first wave of online sellers but the demand increased, production reacted and most of all, China’s industry had started the QC cycle - within the next 10 years they will bury the old paradigm.

As for the rep prices I guess they react to the market targets and, again, they are based on demand and on online sales.

 

Last year in Kuala Lumpur I was taken into an apartment that acted as a “swiss” showroom. They even dad two in-house watchsmits.

Base prices were high but after some good discussion lowered a bit, even so lower than the prices we are used to.

there are some places in Saigon (street stalls) where one can find very decent frankens for 2** bucks or source the so called vietnamese dials for 4*bucks.

sometimes watches have the same origin of the ones offered by online platforms, other times one gets surprised with an oddball. 

In the end we are still talking about reps...

and cheap or expensive a rep will still be a rep. 

But it is still a watch anyway :)

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