Timelord Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 Greetings,, just had an issue with a 2801 manual movement after reassembly from cleaning. Got to oil it and upon running, it stops almost immediately. The only issue I noticed is that the escape wheel just rocks backwards and forwards without moving in it's circular orbit to make the seconds wheel turn. I believe the roller jewel is in the pallet fork but this seems strange. Has anyone ever had this issue as it is the first for me after having cleaned and oiled over 20 similar movements? Seems rather odd to me unless there is something that I do not know. Thanks for any input, or suggestions!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted February 5, 2021 Report Share Posted February 5, 2021 "the escape wheel just rocks backwards and forwards without moving in it's circular orbit..." Sounds like power is lost between the MS barrel and escape wheel somewhere. With no power on the escape wheel the pallet fork will not 'kick'. See if it has any kick at all when moved with a toothpick etc. A quickie power check is to release all the main spring power, remove the balance complete and pallet fork, then just barely wind the movement a quarter turn of the crown turn or so and see if the escape wheel spins. Do not allow it to spin very fast. If it does not spin...check to see if there is any power on the escape wheel, if it has power on it there should be no rocking back and forth and it should be trying to turn. Look for a speck stuck in the train wheel teeth and make sure there are no train wheel pivots out of their jewels or with a broken tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timelord Posted February 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 On 2/6/2021 at 4:41 AM, automatico said: "the escape wheel just rocks backwards and forwards without moving in it's circular orbit..." Sounds like power is lost between the MS barrel and escape wheel somewhere. With no power on the escape wheel the pallet fork will not 'kick'. See if it has any kick at all when moved with a toothpick etc. A quickie power check is to release all the main spring power, remove the balance complete and pallet fork, then just barely wind the movement a quarter turn of the crown turn or so and see if the escape wheel spins. Do not allow it to spin very fast. If it does not spin...check to see if there is any power on the escape wheel, if it has power on it there should be no rocking back and forth and it should be trying to turn. Look for a speck stuck in the train wheel teeth and make sure there are no train wheel pivots out of their jewels or with a broken tip. thank you for your input! Before responding to your reply, I wanted to leave no stone unturned in taking my time to inspect every single wheel and pivot being free from any debris or lint, making sure nothing is causing any obstructions! I reassembled it again and the pallet fork did kick upon testing it so I placed the balance assembly! It ran for a little while and was optimistic that I had resolved the problem until the same thing happened before I first posted my enquiry! I am not so sure what is happening as it might be something to do with the keyless works as they seem worn, because they keep falling out of position almost every time I try to set the time or even wind it! I have to always disassemble them to reposition the operations! The problem could even be there! anyway thanks for that as it was worth a try! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymanmatt Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Escape wheel must be steady. As you know, it spins quite freely with the pallet fork removed. The only time I’ve see an escape rock is because one of the staffs is broken, usually the one in the base plate, or I have changed the second or third wheel, and their the wrong one. Either could be to tall and not letting the train bridge seat properly. Then the escape wheel will wobble because it’s not fully in the jewel in the train bridge. Good luck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timelord Posted February 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 On 2/11/2021 at 12:12 AM, mymanmatt said: Escape wheel must be steady. As you know, it spins quite freely with the pallet fork removed. The only time I’ve see an escape rock is because one of the staffs is broken, usually the one in the base plate, or I have changed the second or third wheel, and their the wrong one. Either could be to tall and not letting the train bridge seat properly. Then the escape wheel will wobble because it’s not fully in the jewel in the train bridge. Good luck. thank you for the information! Very valid points indeed! I checked the train wheel works without the pallet and it spins freely without any issues I can immediately see when trying to wind the mainspring! However I am inclined to go along with your suggestion of the seconds wheel being the issue as I needed to replace it some months ago and could only get a clone generic. So as you say it may well be a tad too tall as it was labeled for eta 2801,2836-2 2824-2 and as I found out with an eta 2836-2 that the seconds wheel was in my case too short in not allowing the second had to be attached even though labeled as 2836-2 on packet! Probably the reason why most clone mats are a dud! The other issue was the mainspring barrel feeing a bit rough upon winding! Not sure if it is the keyless works as they seem rough and uncooperative at times, If parts are needed then these movements become scrap for parts as spares are now near impossible to get or impossible to justify for the price tag! At least I now know where the problem is and not necessarily just my skills!😁 many thanks again!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted February 13, 2021 Report Share Posted February 13, 2021 "... the seconds wheel being the issue as I needed to replace it some months ago and could only get a clone generic." "Probably the reason why most clone mvts are a dud!" In my humble opinion (and experience) Asian etaclones are junk. The only Asian etaclone parts I have successfully used is a couple complete 28xx autowind assemblies and the IHS non adjustable 24 hour GMT mod for ETA 2836. Mixing internal A-clone movement parts with OEM often results in more problems because a lot of the A-clone parts are made to a low standard. Mini rant... Otoh, I am not a fan of the current swatch, rlx, omega (swiss in general) 'No Parts For You' policy but their movements are much better than any A-clones I have owned. Most of the swiss watch companies used to be more or less 'friendly' but now it seems they have declared war on their customers and parts supply houses. Imho they hate our guts but they love our $$. That's really Ok with me because they are rapidly becoming Dinosaurs again and this time nostalgia will not bring them back from the abyss like it did with the 'quartz crisis'. With the current generation opting for electronic time keepers over mechanical gadgets, I believe the swiss watch industry is on the way OUT for good. Apple type watches are out selling most of the swiss brands and that has to make them worry. I say AMF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horologist Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 10 hours ago, automatico said: "... the seconds wheel being the issue as I needed to replace it some months ago and could only get a clone generic." "Probably the reason why most clone mvts are a dud!" In my humble opinion (and experience) Asian etaclones are junk. Mixing internal A-clone movement parts with OEM often results in more problems because a lot of the A-clone parts are made to a low standard. Ditto!! Also parts do not mesh either as they are not really in line with the genuine! I have had this problem with the seconds wheel, they Keyless works and the winding stems! On one of my clones, the train wheel bridge was not level in comparison to one from the genuine! There seemed to be side shake where the seconds was loose and all along I thought it was something that I had done wrong upon mounting it! It almost destroyed any watchmaking skills that I had gained! Very dangerous for learning experiences as well as being duds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timelord Posted March 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 Gentlemen I would firstly like to express again my thanks for your input towards my problem !!! I spent the last 2 weeks pulling the whole thing apart and re serviced the mechanism myself, after inspecting every single part . it turns out that the 3rd wheel pivot was worn and was causing side shake. It had enough power to get the pallet moving but then recoiled upon losing energy. At first I thought it was the mainspring that was broken or perhaps even the reverser wheels not transmitting energy to the mainspring, hence not forwarding enough power to the motion works. Out of curiosity I tried a generic third wheel and it works great!!!! Maybe I was lucky with a generic part for a change.. Time will tell,!!!! excuse the pun!! It is now ticking well. In all my years of tinkering, I have never had this issue. This is what makes this hobby an art, a science and a journey of passion, which is truly rewarding beyond any other!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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