TeeJay Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 I managed to identify which piece I needed to turn to regulate the time, and moved the 'screw' forward about a millimeter. When I put the back on, I realised that the hands had stopped. Removing the back, I saw the rotating wheel had stopped. A light tap on the edge with a jeweller's screwdriver, and it started rotating again. Tried to put the back on, same result. Again, a tiny tap on the edge of the wheel, and it starts ticking away. Something I have observed, is all the time the watch is face down, the wheel rotates. Once it goes vertical or upside down, it stops. Any suggestions on what I might have done or what I need to do? The way the wheel starts rotating again when it's given a tap and face down suggests I haven't totally killed it, but I'm certainly in need of professional advice. Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 If all you touched was the fine regulator screw, that should have no effect on the problem you describe. Something else must have happended while you had the case opened, if the watch was running fine, and after adjustment is not working, there is something wrong somewhere. What it may be, I could not tell... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted April 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 If all you touched was the fine regulator screw, that should have no effect on the problem you describe. Something else must have happended while you had the case opened, if the watch was running fine, and after adjustment is not working, there is something wrong somewhere. What it may be, I could not tell... RG That was indeed all I touched. There was a small jewell in a holder inside that screw, and I wondered if I might've put too much downward pressure against that, although I tried to ensure that the only pressure was sideways torque, not downward pressure... I've left the watch face down since first posting, and it's still ticking merrily away, but I know if I tip it right way up, it'll stop again... Is there any kind of balancing mechanism involved that could have been compromised? The watchsmith who'd previously repaired my Submariner said he wouldn't work on the project watch as there would be no guarantee of the various parts working together, and he didn't want to charge for doing the work (which he'd obviously have to do) if it might not work, so I think I'm going to have to take a crash course in watch building. I've always been good at model building, my dad used to be an engineer for an F1 manufacturer, so I'm very used to the nature of precision work, I just don't really know where to start... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 TJ -- Did you remove the movement from the case at any point? If so, remove the movement again and see if it runs ok out of the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 I managed to identify which piece I needed to turn to regulate the time, and moved the 'screw' forward about a millimeter. When I put the back on, I realised that the hands had stopped. Removing the back, I saw the rotating wheel had stopped. A light tap on the edge with a jeweller's screwdriver, and it started rotating again. Tried to put the back on, same result. Again, a tiny tap on the edge of the wheel, and it starts ticking away. Something I have observed, is all the time the watch is face down, the wheel rotates. Once it goes vertical or upside down, it stops. Any suggestions on what I might have done or what I need to do? The way the wheel starts rotating again when it's given a tap and face down suggests I haven't totally killed it, but I'm certainly in need of professional advice. Thanks in advance What kind of movement??? Moved the screw forward a millimeter???? Doesn't sound like an ETA regulator adjustment. Not to put you down, but what sounds like a bit of watch movement nomenclature naievite (that "rotating wheel" is the oscillating balance wheel) makes me a little concerned about exactly what screw you did adjust or what you might have accidently done once you opened the back. Some pics might be helpful and certainly a movement caliber would let us know what you are dealing with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 That was indeed all I touched. There was a small jewell in a holder inside that screw, and I wondered if I might've put too much downward pressure against that I really don't understand what you are describing. If you messed with the cap jewels on the balance staff, you might have damaged them and that might account for the wheel not oscillating properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted April 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 TJ -- Did you remove the movement from the case at any point? If so, remove the movement again and see if it runs ok out of the case. I only removed the case back. I wasn't sure which 'hole' was the crown stem release, so left that well alone... The movement stayed in the case the entire time. What kind of movement??? I have absolutley no idea. My guess would be a $2 Chinese POS. (Keeps great time and sweeps as smooth as a cold beer, which is why I kept it as a project, despite the watches external flaws) Moved the screw forward a millimeter???? The watch was running at about -2/3 seconds a day. I rotated the screw clockwise probably less than a mm. Literally just enough for my eye to see the line had moved, so probably a hair's breadth rather an a mm. Not to put you down, but what sounds like a bit of watch movement nomenclature naievite (that "rotating wheel" is the oscillating balance wheel) makes me a little concerned about exactly what screw you did adjust or what you might have accidently done once you opened the back. Some pics might be helpful and certainly a movement caliber would let us know what you are dealing with. No condescention taken at all, the only reason I adjusted that specific screw, was that in the movement for my PO, the same screw section is marked with the - + markings for time regulation... Here's the best picture I could get. The green ring surrounds what I suspect to be the crown stem release, a yay or nay would be appreciated on that... The red rings surround the screw that I rotated clockwise by about a hair's breadth... Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 I only removed the case back. I wasn't sure which 'hole' was the crown stem release, so left that well alone... The movement stayed in the case the entire time. I have absolutley no idea. My guess would be a $2 Chinese POS. (Keeps great time and sweeps as smooth as a cold beer, which is why I kept it as a project, despite the watches external flaws) The watch was running at about -2/3 seconds a day. I rotated the screw clockwise probably less than a mm. Literally just enough for my eye to see the line had moved, so probably a hair's breadth rather an a mm. No condescention taken at all, the only reason I adjusted that specific screw, was that in the movement for my PO, the same screw section is marked with the - + markings for time regulation... Here's the best picture I could get. The green ring surrounds what I suspect to be the crown stem release, a yay or nay would be appreciated on that... The red rings surround the screw that I rotated clockwise by about a hair's breadth... Thanks in advance Bad news...you probably broke the watch. First of all, shame on you for messing with a Chinese POS movement that was running 2-3 sec/day off in the hopes of getting it to run better. I wouldn't mess with my Genuine Omega if it was running this well. Second, adjustments for this movement are done by moving the lever with two dots attached to the balance wheel assembly. Sorry. I dont know what that screw movement did. Adjustments to oscillations are done by micro adjustments to the balance spring on the balance wheel. That screw is half way accross the movement from the adjuster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted April 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Bad news...you probably broke the watch. First of all, shame on you for messing with a Chinese POS movement that was running 2-3 sec/day off in the hopes of getting it to run better. I wouldn't mess with my Genuine Omega if it was running this well. Second, adjustments for this movement are done by moving the lever with two dots attached to the balance wheel assembly. Sorry. I dont know what that screw movement did. Adjustments to oscillations are done by micro adjustments to the balance spring on the balance wheel. That screw is half way accross the movement from the adjuster. I thought that was likely the case... Would it likely be repairable though? Would it be as easy to swap out the movement? If it had been running +2/3 a day, I wouldn't've touched it, but as it was a constant -, I thought it wouldn't be a problem to adjust... My bad there... With the adjustments, could you highlight on that picture which lever you mean? If the movement's totally junked, I might as well scrap the watch, as there would be no point in swapping all the other parts from a donor watch, when all I would actually be using, of the original, would be the case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 I thought that was likely the case... Would it likely be repairable though? Would it be as easy to swap out the movement? If it had been running +2/3 a day, I wouldn't've touched it, but as it was a constant -, I thought it wouldn't be a problem to adjust... My bad there... With the adjustments, could you highlight on that picture which lever you mean? If the movement's totally junked, I might as well scrap the watch, as there would be no point in swapping all the other parts from a donor watch, when all I would actually be using, of the original, would be the case... I would keep the movement to play with, perhaps learn a thing or two if you are interested in movements, but even movement swapping involves a considerable skill set, pulling and re-attaching hands, dial mounting etc... Some of these actions require special tools. The movement looks like one of the Chinese DG movements you can get on Cousins or Ofrei's websites for around $7-$10 but I'm not sure exactly which one it is specifically. Most of these will accomidate dial mounting feet in ETA configuration. You will not be able to mount these hands on any other movement without considerable effort and modification. There are some great articles over on TZ about the basics of mechanical watch movements and what affects timing and regulation. They are well worth a read before you go messing with a new movement. Don't have the computer skill set to edit your pic but look at the balance wheel assembly. There are two levers attached to it. One of them has two small dots on it. That's your adjuster. Which way to move it.....that varies from movement to movement. The other affects beat rate. Don't touch that one without a Vibrograph handy to reset it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 As much as I love to encourage people to DIY - I feel that more often than not, people get a little too adventurous... good luck with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted April 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 I would keep the movement to play with, perhaps learn a thing or two if you are interested in movements, but even movement swapping involves a considerable skill set, pulling and re-attaching hands, dial mounting etc... Some of these actions require special tools. The movement looks like one of the Chinese DG movements you can get on Cousins or Ofrei's websites for around $7-$10 but I'm not sure exactly which one it is specifically. Most of these will accomidate dial mounting feet in ETA configuration. You will not be able to mount these hands on any other movement without considerable effort and modification. There are some great articles over on TZ about the basics of mechanical watch movements and what affects timing and regulation. They are well worth a read before you go messing with a new movement. Don't have the computer skill set to edit your pic but look at the balance wheel assembly. There are two levers attached to it. One of them has two small dots on it. That's your adjuster. Which way to move it.....that varies from movement to movement. The other affects beat rate. Don't touch that one without a Vibrograph handy to reset it. Thanks for the assistance I think I've found the lever which is the adjuster, from your first reply and made a minor tweak,but, before I read this second post, I moved the other lever marginally, realized it was the wrong one, and moved it back to precicely where it was. If this is the one that affects beat rate, would putting it back in exactly the same position as it was originally in mean the beat rate was the same as it had originally been? I think I will indeed keep the watch as a working/learning tool, although I think it's use as a 'project watch' has now passed... Oh well, such is life... Thanks for the advice, folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14060 or 16610? Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 That wouldn't have been a PO lite, would it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Thanks for the assistance I think I've found the lever which is the adjuster, from your first reply and made a minor tweak,but, before I read this second post, I moved the other lever marginally, realized it was the wrong one, and moved it back to precicely where it was. If this is the one that affects beat rate, would putting it back in exactly the same position as it was originally in mean the beat rate was the same as it had originally been? I think I will indeed keep the watch as a working/learning tool, although I think it's use as a 'project watch' has now passed... Oh well, such is life... Thanks for the advice, folks The only way to accurately adjust beat rate is with an analyzer. If this is a 21,000bph movement, you can see how far off even a minor tweaking of the lever would make the rate from ideal. Yes, adjusting this will cause your watch to run faster or slower, but it is doing so by changing the mechanical relationships within the watch. It can cause all kinds of problems like changing how and at what angles the palet stones interact with the escapement etc.... BTW, made all the same mistakes on the learning curve!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted April 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 That wouldn't have been a PO lite, would it? No, a very cheap 2531.80 The only way to accurately adjust beat rate is with an analyzer. If this is a 21,000bph movement, you can see how far off even a minor tweaking of the lever would make the rate from ideal. Yes, adjusting this will cause your watch to run faster or slower, but it is doing so by changing the mechanical relationships within the watch. It can cause all kinds of problems like changing how and at what angles the palet stones interact with the escapement etc.... BTW, made all the same mistakes on the learning curve!!! Although using an analyzer is the only way to accurately adjust beat rate, if the lever was moved from Position A to position B and then back to Position A, would the timing rate return to how it was when it was first at Position A? The only way we learn is by mistakes, the key thing is to learn from them and not repeat them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Although using an analyzer is the only way to accurately adjust beat rate, if the lever was moved from Position A to position B and then back to Position A, would the timing rate return to how it was when it was first at Position A? First few points on your learning curve, this is a 10X loupe world. It didn't take much of a turn of the wrong screw to inactivate your watch. You might think the lever is back in the same position, but your beat rate might be off significantly. I have several Seiko automatics where the fine adjustments in the adjustment lever can only be done under high magnification sometimes only with light taps of the arm to nudge it into position. Tenths of a millimeter movements are standard for fine adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted April 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 First few points on your learning curve, this is a 10X loupe world. It didn't take much of a turn of the wrong screw to inactivate your watch. You might think the lever is back in the same position, but your beat rate might be off significantly. I have several Seiko automatics where the fine adjustments in the adjustment lever can only be done under high magnification sometimes only with light taps of the arm to nudge it into position. Tenths of a millimeter movements are standard for fine adjustment. That's not a problem. As I said, my dad used to work for an F1 company, and although I didn't follow him into engineering, the projects we've done together have given me a very accurate eye for detail (ie lining up the edge of a lever with the edge or curve or something of another part of the case) A loupe will indeed be an aquisition, but for now, I'm having to work by eye, so I'm being extremely carefull with what I'm doing, and only moving things a hair's breadth at a time... With regards to the Position A to Position B and back to Position A again scenario, would such a location and re-location of a lever revert the rate to as it was (or as close as possible without an analyzer) before the lever was moved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 As much as I love to encourage people to DIY - I feel that more often than not, people get a little too adventurous... good luck with it. TeeJay: I'm reading your threads with a lot of pleasure. But this one is quite surprising. Why dont you post questions and pics before you start to regulate ? Good luck and enjoy though. Cheers Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted April 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 TeeJay: I'm reading your threads with a lot of pleasure. But this one is quite surprising. Why dont you post questions and pics before you start to regulate ? Good luck and enjoy though. Cheers Stephane I thought (key word being thought) I rememered which piece I needed to move to regulate the movement. It was the - + signs and the scale by the 'large screw' that made me think that that was the piece I needed to adjust. I should've checked what I was doing, and it was a stupid mistake to make, but, it's one I can learn from. I've been trying to regulate my Planet Oceans by adjusting the correct lever with some mixed results, but I think I've got them just right. If the worst comes to the worst, I'll just have to take them into a jewellers to be regulated professionally, and let the expense be another reminder to properly research what I'm doing, and not just rush in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega1 Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 TeeJay, Please refer to my markings on your picture: Green = slots Blue = regulator arm (used for adjusting rate) Yellow = spring stud arm (used for adjusting beat) This is what I am guessing you did. You inserted the end of a slotted screw driver into the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted April 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 TeeJay, Please refer to my markings on your picture: Green = slots Blue = regulator arm (used for adjusting rate) Yellow = spring stud arm (used for adjusting beat) This is what I am guessing you did. You inserted the end of a slotted screw driver into the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted April 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 I can't explain how or why, but I just looked at my project watch, and it has decided to start working again Up, down, left right, it's still working regardless of the position I shall keep a very close eye on it to see how it maintains time and function, but even if it decides to stop again, this is certainly a strange occurence... Glad I didn't throw it in the bin this morning afterall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltatahoe Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 wow. that's some unexpected good news. post some more pictures of your project watch as it comes along.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanf Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 TeeJay-- see? I told you sacrificing a chicken would work! And to think you didn't believe me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted April 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 wow. that's some unexpected good news. post some more pictures of your project watch as it comes along.... Unexpected is an understatement. Although it worked yesterday while face down, any other position, and it would just stop, which was why I suspected some kind of balance mechanism out of whack. Had it on since my post, and that has involved about an hour's brisk walking, as well as sitting quietly watching TV. It appears to be keeping perfect time... Looks like the project has resurrected itself, so indeed, more pictures of the project will be shown as the project progresses TeeJay-- see? I told you sacrificing a chicken would work! And to think you didn't believe me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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