Does a rep lead you to purchase gen?

[Golfman]

"Does a rep lead you to purchase gen?"

I must say that i am on the way ...

Not to buy a lot gen , and not to stop rep for gen, but at least, among my 7 rep, my Pam 005 still remains my prefered.

Then i think that in the next year i should by one, 005 or 111, not completly sure of the model, but a PAM definitely.

And always the pleasure to have other watch via rep world.

[baltic]

Yes, my first and favourite rep was a Speedy Pro from EL. I loved the history of the watch - Moon landings NASA tests etc. and gradualy came to accept that although the rep was a great watch in itself, I wanted the gen. I reduced my collection at the same time - quality not quantity and I wanted the reps to have the same mvmt as the gen, hence my most recent purchase a 7753 PAM 196.

[FxrAndy]

There is no way i could affored to have the gens i like and even they are cheep gens but now with the super reps i have some great time peices that are worth what we pay for them, Like TJ said it is the inflated prices of gens that puts him off, well me too, Reps all the way even if i could afford all the gens i could want i would not buy them.

[millemiglia]

I agree with By-Tor, most of the time Reps are "almost" as good as the gens (at least those that get replicated)some out of the box (like the correct hand stack Explorer 2, the SFSO and all those fantastic Tags) some needs small mods, but still INCREDIBLE value for the money...

P.S.

And let me join FxrAndy and TJ too: gens price ARE inflated...

Edited September 29, 2007 by millemiglia

[halley]

Yes, I came to the rep world because I couldn't afford at the time a Monaco, I bought the rep from TTK and maybe a year after I bought the gen monaco.

I perhpaps bought 3-5 reps since last year and selling them one after one during that time and reduced my rep collection to 4 watches...that I will now probably keep

I now think more and more moving to genuines again or custom made watches if possible. I stated to my GF that I was done with the replica now but a few are still appealing to me that I'd like to get before retiring.

[anton]

"Inflated prices for gens"...

I don't think a company would survive if we paid the prices we wanted to pay for their watch. Essentially we are paying for their future.

[Star69]

gen - reps - gen -reps - and so on ....

at the moment only reps - my last gen was a Panerai Zero and ... a huge

disappointment - i think a davidsan pam is better quality than the gen pam i had -

but that's an other story

the only gen that i would bye again are Rolex - but only for the very nice movement.

Frank

[sssurfer]

"Inflated prices for gens"...

I don't think a company would survive if we paid the prices we wanted to pay for their watch. Essentially we are paying for their future.

Personally, I am only paying for the future of rep makers and sellers.

[JoJo35]

for me yes, reps unleashed the monster

the rep world opened my eyes to watches and fueled an interest way above what i could ever have imagined. i went from having not even worn a watch for atleast 10 years to having a parts box littered with bits and pieces as i picked up reps, learned a whole load i didnt even think anyone thought about prior, i learned how to take apart and rebuild watches, learned about miniscule details and tells and feverishly tried to get them as accurate as possible.

i found myself drawn into vintage watches rather than moderns after the first few but no matter how much i worked on them, how good they got for me they just couldnt scratch my itch. id got to the stage where i was discarding almost the entire rep, replacing with gen parts and sinking alot of $ into a watch that would never be more than a wannabe. perhaps its my personality but rather than pride im my work i just found myself noticing all the little things everytime i wore each. i finally just bought the bullet and picked up a couple of gens instead since the price was accesible at the time.

i havent given up on reps altogether though, the price of entry for models im interested in is now often prohibitive sadly and so reps allow me to expand my hobby when this is the case, such as with my 6152 project.

beyond that i find a genuine enthusiasm and depth of knowledge amongst many on the rep boards that sadly lacking from the gen world, now filled with many treating them like stocks

In this I agree. Modding to the hilt still only results in a fake (but a very nice one I might add, more like a piece of artwork, still to be very much appreciated)

Now I'm in search of a gen 16660, or perhaps a red letter if I can find one that won't break the bank!

[Victoria]

My point on pricing, is that if a company can outsource their product enough to bring their production costs down, why not adjust the retail cost accordingly?

Because business is about making money. And IMO there is nothing wrong with making MORE money, having reduced your costs.

This is a fundamental difference in how many people think. To me, business is not about ethics or morality regarding profit.

If you had argued that Rolex outsourced much of their partmaking to Chinese factories, and THEN started reneging on their previous excellent customer service record, I might perk up and agree. In fact, I'm sure I would.

But if you tell me that since now Rolex are saving loads of money by getting cheaper parts made in China, and are not passing on the savings to its future customers, that simply leaves me shrugging.

That's the whole point of business, of Capitalism, of turning a profit.

I know they charge what they charge because there will always be someone prepared to pay the price tag, and in marketing and retail, I know that's the overall 'point', but ethically and morally speaking, why charge more for a product than it genuinely costs to produce... (I know, R&D costs as well, but I think it's safe to say Rolex recouped those losses a long time ago ) I guess at the end of the day, I just object to consumerism and corporate greed setting prices for products.

Right, it needn't be, but it CAN be a moral dilemma.

Does one give money to counterfeiters who are illegally ripping off legitimate companies of their intellectual property rights, on their customer service record, and fine name, to get ultimately comparatively shoddy goods, for a fraction of the price?

Or do you bite the bullet, and make the rich richer, because you feel it's not fair to rip anyone off, such as contributing to the stealing of ideas, no matter the justification?

I once asked this on RWI: Say one of us started ripping off designs from strapmakers Savage and Tootall, who in the meantime had become very wealthy making straps (let's pretend for a moment). We took away from their creativity, by simply appending their names to our designs. Would this be fair? No. If they decided to charge 2x, 3x...10x as much than when they first started out, simply because in the meantime they had gained experience and renown, thus making their straps more covettable. Is that fair? Yes.

It's up to each person how they make sense of these things in their own mind.

I've made peace with mine a long time ago. If I had the money, I would buy gens 90% of the time.

[2sweetau]

never

[lazarini]

Hi all.

i have to say that im playing with that idea ... but the thought of loosing the ability to mix it up a bit holds me back ... my favorite watch is submariner and i bet there is manny out there that feel the same ... maybe some day ill sell out and go gen. but for now im not at that point yet .

regards laz

[TeeJay]

"Inflated prices for gens"...

I don't think a company would survive if we paid the prices we wanted to pay for their watch. Essentially we are paying for their future.

Rep dealers/manufacturers seem to be surviving on selling near replicas at reasonable prices...

[TeeJay]

Because business is about making money. And IMO there is nothing wrong with making MORE money, having reduced your costs.

This is a fundamental difference in how many people think. To me, business is not about ethics or morality regarding profit.

If you had argued that Rolex outsourced much of their partmaking to Chinese factories, and THEN started reneging on their previous excellent customer service record, I might perk up and agree. In fact, I'm sure I would.

But if you tell me that since now Rolex are saving loads of money by getting cheaper parts made in China, and are not passing on the savings to its future customers, that simply leaves me shrugging.

That's the whole point of business, of Capitalism, of turning a profit.

I absolutely agree, making a profit is the purpose of business. There are, however, companies which survive by selling a reasonable product at a reasonable price. That is also business. Personally, I do not think 'prestige' (which ultimately comes down to 'brand worship') warrants artificially inflated prices.

Right, it needn't be, but it CAN be a moral dilemma.

Does one give money to counterfeiters who are illegally ripping off legitimate companies of their intellectual property rights, on their customer service record, and fine name, to get ultimately comparatively shoddy goods, for a fraction of the price?

Or do you bite the bullet, and make the rich richer, because you feel it's not fair to rip anyone off, such as contributing to the stealing of ideas, no matter the justification?

At the end of the day, that is the decision the consumer has to make.

I once asked this on RWI: Say one of us started ripping off designs from strapmakers Savage and Tootall, who in the meantime had become very wealthy making straps (let's pretend for a moment). We took away from their creativity, by simply appending their names to our designs. Would this be fair? No. If they decided to charge 2x, 3x...10x as much than when they first started out, simply because in the meantime they had gained experience and renown, thus making their straps more covettable. Is that fair? Yes.

It's up to each person how they make sense of these things in their own mind.

Now, while I agree with your first part, no, it wouldn't be fair, but then again, the world rarely is. As for the second point, I would disagree. Just because they had gained experience and renown, if the quality of their product remained the same as before (barring reasonable refinements in the creative process compared to the very first strap they ever made) then there is still no justification in an increase in price as the product remains the same. As I said above, personally, I do not think that personally applicable opinions on a product (ie 'popularity'/'covetability') should have any reflection on the item's price. If something is actually worth a high price, then fair play, but just because a lot of people like it, so the maker decides to up the price? Sorry, I don't agree with that, because as you sayu, it's up to each person to draw their own conclusions.

I've made peace with mine a long time ago. If I had the money, I would buy gens 90% of the time.

I think that that, at the core, is where our opinions are so different on this subject. Even if I had the money, I still wouldn't buy gens (unless I felt they were reasonably priced) Say I won a quadruple rollover lottery, I certainly wouldn't rush out and replace my collection of reps with the genuine versions, as then, those would just be 'watches in a box', rather than having the sentimental value which my current collection has (other than my Daytona and 111h, which were simply 'purchasses' rather than sentimental ones) That said, I'd apply that philosophy across the board, as I do now, in that I'd buy generic, replica, or more likely, hand-made clothes rather than High Street prices on designer labels. Hand-made clothes might not have a swanky label, but you sure can't beat the feeling of knowing that a garment, not only fits you perfectly, but was made just for you. I'd even go so far as to say I'd go that way with vehicles too, and buy 'kit cars', or custom built rather than buying a prestigious marque (I'm not much of a gear hear, but I'd still love to build my own kit car oneday so I could at least say "I built that...") I probably should've put this final point at the beginning as it probably makes my other comments make more sense

[Viennawatch]

I started out having absolutely no interest in watches whatsoever; in fact I hated wearing anything around my wrists, it annoyed me that much. When I was 17, I was gifted a Swatch Irony Chronos from my uncle, which I wore 3 or 4 times I think, after which it was lying in a box for about 4 years.

Four years after having received the Swatch, the interest for watches arrived at my doorstep with a big bang. I remember, ever since my rich bastard friend got a used Rolex Daytona from his dad for his graduation, i fell in love with that watch. Ever since I've been buying watch magazines, been an RWG member of the old and the new, have bought 3 reps, two of which I find perfect enough for the time-being.

In the mean time, I've lost interest in the Daytona, but my interest for gens still lingers and when I can afford to buy a gen, I will. Like a few of you have already said, a gen will always be a gen.

And I am avidly waiting to afford the Tag Heuer Monaco Chrono... :wub:

However I do agree with most, when you say that you would not necessarily buy a gen that can easily by replicated.

After all, a Rolex will always be an imitation of itself.

Regards,

Viennawatch

Edited September 30, 2007 by Viennawatch

[anton]

Thanks again all for your replies! Many of you that replied to my thread answered the question with a great deal of rationalization; others solely based on aesthetics.

I've noticed that the hobbyists are rep purists, as they're the "core" of the game; it's them that caused the reps to come this far in terms of accuracy and newer innovations in terms of the movement or construction.

Some have said that the gens' cost will never be justified and that they are grossly overpriced; though I would like to say otherwise for some of the marques. Sure, one can purchase (example) a Chrono Avenger rep for $250, but the gen costs $3,000. But what do you get for $3,000? Peace of mind. Reliability. Superb construction, QC, and (possibly) better materials.

The reason I say this was that a friend of mine had taken it apart to replace the dial (from blue to white). I looked at the case and just the construction of the pushers itself shows that the quality is evident on the gens.

Then again, there are also those other manufacurers who think they can charge $5K+ Just because they think they could. Ever heard of Bertolucci?

[TeeJay]

Thanks again all for your replies! Many of you that replied to my thread answered the question with a great deal of rationalization; others solely based on aesthetics.

I've noticed that the hobbyists are rep purists, as they're the "core" of the game; it's them that caused the reps to come this far in terms of accuracy and newer innovations in terms of the movement or construction.

Some have said that the gens' cost will never be justified and that they are grossly overpriced; though I would like to say otherwise for some of the marques. Sure, one can purchase (example) a Chrono Avenger rep for $250, but the gen costs $3,000. But what do you get for $3,000? Peace of mind. Reliability. Superb construction, QC, and (possibly) better materials.

The reason I say this was that a friend of mine had taken it apart to replace the dial (from blue to white). I looked at the case and just the construction of the pushers itself shows that the quality is evident on the gens.

Then again, there are also those other manufacurers who think they can charge $5K+ Just because they think they could. Ever heard of Bertolucci?

While I'd admit that gens have a generally higher level of QC, and in some cases, better contruction, I'd point out that I have peace of mind in my reps as I know the dealer stands by them. Their reliability has never been a problem, and in that regard, they are no better or worse than the reliability of a genuine watch (let's not forget the photo of a Seiko which had condensation under the crystal) In all honesty, do we really need product guarantees at these prices? The fact that ADs offer them goes to show that even gens are capable of breakdown, and sure, while getting a DOA watch is an unnacceptable standard from a dealer, if a rep floods or something goes wrong, it's a lot easier and cheaper to repair (or just completely replace) than the gen version...

[Viennawatch]

@Teejay

Its not about the product guarantee. Its about that 'Ahhhhhhh' feeling you get when sporting a gen, which you probably get as well when wearing a good rep. However the question is, how big is the 'Ahhhhhh' compared to that of a gen's? If you get what I am saying sir. haha :Jumpy:

[TeeJay]

@Teejay

Its not about the product guarantee. Its about that 'Ahhhhhhh' feeling you get when sporting a gen, which you probably get as well when wearing a good rep. However the question is, how big is the 'Ahhhhhh' compared to that of a gen's? If you get what I am saying sir. haha :Jumpy:

I see what you mean, that indefineable satisfaction from something (Indeed, I do get that when wearing a nice rep ) If anything, when I try on reps in ADs, the feeling I get is 'Meh...' rather than 'Ahhhh'

[lemonvr6]

Yes. I bought a rep for the exact purpose of seeing if I would want to keep the gen.

This

Led to this

And this

And finally this

[Seabadger]

A bit of both. I've bought gens and reps, but not of the same model. The last rep I've bought (a very good black / silver Carrera from Josh which keeps excellent time) was bought with the intention of seeing whether it would be too big for me to wear day to day - a 5 minute try-on in a dealer isn't really enough time to decide. The rep isn't, and it also keeps excellent time, so I'll probably hand on to it until it breaks, and then get a gen.

I've also bought a Sub rep, again just to see if I think it suits me - and I've decided it doesn't, so that's that. I still wear the rep from time to time if I think I may end up doing something that would damage a "proper" watch as it too keeps good time.

Just for the record, the gens are:

Heuer Carrera 2 register manual wind (60s)

Heuer Carrera 2 register automatic with date (70s)

Heuer Autavia 2 register automatic with date (80s)

For some reason I really like the pre-TAG Heuers, although other than the Carrera tachy chrono, nothing in the current line-up appeals to me at all - not even the re-editions due to the TAG element on the logo.

[phaedo]

I was always looking at gens, but eventually came here and have got reps since - but at some stage it will lead to getting gens - I have started taking some watches for granted, so am glad not to get those ones as a gen. But it does narrow down the field to what I do want to get as a gen. Right now, I am thinking of a Zenith as the gen I end up getting, am fascinated with the speed they run at, plus some of them look pretty good too. Another point about them, too, is that the movement won't be repped any time soon.

[anton]

The difficulty in replicating a movement as always been the dealbreaker for me to purchase a gen over rep, but what drives me even further is the timeless and/or classic and/or unique designs that cause me to buy the gen. As much as we don't talk about used market value on vintages, one can't help that when you purchase a gen piece, there's a small part in your head that is always thinking, "how much can I get for it if I sold it?"

[Seabadger]

In some ways though, the possibility of selling them is a reassurance - I'd never sell any of my Heuers unless I absolutely had to, but I've bought well - buying only when I've seen a good watch for a good price, and I could probably get

[freddy333]

I tend to side with those who rely on reps as evaluation tools to judge their satisfaction & long-term enjoyment of a particular gen model before laying down the serious scratch required. I am not aware of any gen sellers who will allow you to test-drive a Lange 1 for a few months to see if you like it enough (and it fits within your lifestyle) to keep it. And because most people can better afford to make a few $200 mistakes than to take the hit from a few $25,000 mistakes, reps make alot of sense.

As an interesting aside, TZ is frequently filled with rants suggesting that anyone buying a rep is a fool with his money because of the presumed lack of accuracy & poor overall quality of rep watches. While that may have been true years ago when the best reps were Canal Street junk, I think just the opposite is now true. I believe the true fools are those holier-than-thou blabbermouths, who literally wait for years & end up spending thousands of dollars over list (which is out-pacing even the price of gas) to purchase a stainless Rolex Daytona when you can have essentially the same thing for a mere few hundred. And even if you factor in a few mods to tidy things up a bit more, your total investment is still a relative pittance

And even if the movement does die a premature death, you can buy a gaggle more & still end up way ahead, financially.

But, even if none of that were true, the bottom line is this -- He (or she), who ends up with the most toys, wins.