A better RG HBB is coming

[Pix]

Hi Folks,

let me first confirm that I have made up my mind several times before posting, as I don't like to bear the image of a shill for anyone : I know that when members are too close to a dealer, they become suspect... That's the way it is, but I however decided to post this, as I feel it's really worth and in the HBB fans interest. Mods, if you feel I crossed the yellow line, let me know and move the thread where it deserves.

I have been asked for some advices by Watchmark, my usual and favorite dealer, how he could improve his V2 HBB. Indeed, as you know, dealers can make special orders if they reach a minimum of order. That's what he intends to do.

I gave my personal opinion, based on what I've seen from V1 and V2, as well as from the various discussions that already took place here. I don't know all, but hope I have aquired a bit of knowledge on this particular model. So we exchanged by mail about what is possible to do to create an ultimate HBB for a price that would stay reasonnable.

Actually the HBB prices are quite sick, especially the 1000 USD version.

To make it short, it takes the best of the V1 and the V2. Important, it has no screw-down crown, which we all know to be wrong.

Here's a prototype he showed some hours ago and allowed me to share here, as I suddendly realized that he would have a lot of watches manufactured, based on the flaws I could spot alone. And that's why it surely makes sense to share this here, to make things turn better.

Of course this step from Watchmark is to tease us all (I write US on purpose, as I don't have any financial implication in this, as you can imagine, therefore I see me as part of the potential buyers, not as a sales representative).

For costs reasons, some choices have been made like the cheaper version of the dial. I personally feel it's a point that should be improved, but finally you see these details only when you have both versions side by side.

The low beat 7750 has been chosen as it looks more gen than the high beat that has no regulator. Also it has a thicker datefont. The rehault has been corrected to the correct colour.

I find this one close to perfect (we all know there's no perfection), as the movement and rotor look have been drastically improved. Also the clasp colour and the engravings on the caseback look correct, although not as good as the gen. The strap is the high quality one.

I'm not used to to do this, and don't misunderstand me : I'm posting this to share what I find to be a fair step (creating an HBB with existing parts) and get it hopefully at a more reasonable price than the 1000 USD we see from most boards dealers who carry the old (but still best to date) HBB. If I'm lucky enough to get a special price on this one (I already own one HBB which I feel to be enough) I will of course review it, against the V1 and V2. As you can only say how good a rep is when you have it your hands. I find this activity safer for my mind than discussing about life

Here are the pictures. Your comments are welcome, I feel we are on a good way to the ultimate Big Bang.

More pictures, if necessary, tomorrow.

Hope that post will be useful.

[Edit] Ideally to be improved, according to member's comments :

- use the high beat movement even if less accurate visually (Corgi & Kruzer)

- use the true carbon fiber dial (Pix & Taka)

- better caseback engraving (looks too raw) (Taka)

- thicker crystal (Taka)

- smaller font for the rotor engraving : too squeezed on the rep (Taka)

- thinner H engraving on the movement (Taka)

- Sapphire crystal on the display caseback (Taka)

- subdial at 3 o'clock, the 10 and 20 don't line up (Taka)

- more red looking gold (geo1nah2a)

- for better looking only : black DW and white font

Alternative version :

- use the Tuiga closed caseback to avoid any movement issue. Then you can use the high beat movement too. But dial and side flag has to be changed to the Tuiga version.

Actually these points would make it perfect, but will probably not be manageable for a "cheap" version, as it means new parts creation

[Corgi]

The low beat 7750 has been chosen as it looks more gen than the high beat that has no regulator.

The movement is what makes the watch tell time. Why on Earth you would keep the old, notoriously unreliable version instead of upgrading to the very robust 28,800? I know that accuracy in appearance is one thing, but I think many people are willing to sacrifice a slight and eventually inevitable visual inconsistency for improving the longevity of their very expensive watch! I don't want to sound like I'm crapping on your idea but this is the ONLY reason I didn't get the current-generation $400 watchmark HBB and at least I have you to thank for making up my mind on the second generation HBB!

[Watchmeister]

No worries on shilling. In truth you are doing folks a service as it may cause a member or two to delay his one and only HBB for the better version. Thanks for the pics. Hopefully some of the experts will weigh in and it can be made even better. And yes, using the old school low beat 7750 movement if it has not been improved will defeat the whole purpose of doing a new watch. It isn't much good if it isn't working and even in the best of circumstances infuriating looking at all the subdial hands not reset to zero.

[Pix]

Regarding this low beat : here's the link to The Zigmeister's opinion on it.

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...mp;#entry433343

Since I read that, I changed my mind a lot about the "old" thing. I own 3 out of 6 7750 and can't complain (yet ?)

I understood both have their + and -

+ being that the old one is a straight change to a genuine 7750.

The "MYTH" or Misconception that a Asian 7750 21.6K slow beat model is "crappy" is just that - a misconception and incorrect. I say this from hands on experience with the actual movements.

Both the 21.6k and 28.8k Asian 7750's have problems and issues as delivered. What was a weak point on the 21.6k model has been corrected on the 28.8k movement, but what was a strong point on the 21.6k model - has become a weak one on the 28.8k model. So they both have flaws, but one is considered "good" and the other "crap"??

The older 21.6k Asian 7750 got a bad rap and continues to have this bad rap, quite undeservingly I think.

I have a 3 year old 188, it has a 21.6k A7750 in it, it's been worn often and stored on a winder when not in use. It has continued to work perfect for the past 3 years, keeps as good timing as my ETA or Tudor 7750's when on the winder.

The Asian 7750 that is shown in the high end model with the engravings for $1000, is nothing new or special. I have seen these for a number of months now, and they, like all Asian 7750's have problems. The fancy engraving doesn't fix the design flaws and weak points. Not one A7750 I have taken apart was serviced correctly or didn't have something I had to fix or repair to ensure long term reliability for the customer.

That doesnt' mean that I dont' get the odd A7750 sent back to me for warranty, all the servicing in the world is not going to fix design or parts quality issues.

RG

Old A7750 21.6k weak points:

Dirty

Needs servicing

Fine regulator doesn't work

Cannon pin gear loose not enough friction

Hairsprings can be out of round and not concentric (even spacing between all the coils)

Finish of the movement poor, it doesn't look nice

New A7750 28.8k weak points:

Mainspring and barrel and winding gear soaked in silicone type of oil/grease

Pallet stones loose

Pallet stones not positioned correctly, not enough engagement into the escape wheel causing running problems

Cannon pin gear loose and not enough friction

The old 7750 has the same subdial and chrono hand sizes (the hour and minute hands are the same size on all models). So if you want to install a ETA, having the older 21.6k model is straight forward.

The new 7750 has different hand sizes than the ETA, the subdial and choro ones are all 0.20mm, so you need to make the subdial ones fit the ETA (0.17mm on the ETA) and you need to make the center seconds fit as well (0.25mm on the ETA).

BUT, I have been seeing many new A7750's that have old and new part on them...so it's anybody's guess what you will get. I have seen at least 5 or more different versions of the new 7750 alone...they are all different...

It is a mix of new and old parts, some of the new ones have 0.17mm subdial sizes, and 0.20 seconds hand size, others are all 0.20mm size, some have old bridges with the crappy finish, others have the new ones, some have no fine regulator on the balance, some have a fine regulator, etc...it's all over the place. But the problems are the same on all models...

RG

And here are the key improvements on that project :

- engraved rotor

- dummy (yes it seems it does not work) regulator

- thin shape of the rotor

- smooth axis of the rotor

- correct screw colours on the movement

- correct colour of the clasp pushers

- correct rehault colour against the V2 version (manufacturer 2)

- correct caseback engravings against the V2

[takashi]

Well... For sure if you are looking for a better one, dial needs to be changed.

On the movement side, I would suggest doing a Tuiga version with closed caseback, that will reduce the number of flaws. The area around the screw on the rotor is still wrong. On the gen 7750 it should look like this:

I notice this very clearly when holding the gen HBB: rep crystals are too thin. It should slightly be thicker to match the gen.

The strap of the first generation is very good, very close to the gen too.

The engraving on the rotor is not 100% correct too (the font is too thin/squeezed on the rep).

Most importantly is the gold weight can't lie.

The engraving on the caseback needs to be improved... It just seems like "unfinished" job with rough parts.

Should check the caseback crystal too... It should have sapphire crystal.

[Pix]

I fully agree for the Tuiga or Monaco Yacht Club version !

Also we should keep in mind that this is not really a new watch, it is made with existing parts, therefore I'm not sure if a new crystal is possible or not.

Also the final price is surely an issue.

BTW, it seems that full ceramic HBBs are about to be released. At insane prices

[takashi]

I would say that it's possible to have it "cheaper". Like V1 lite + aftermarket AR coating. That will make really good price (under 400 usd) or... V1 lite + AR + gen ceramic bezel... This is still about 500 USD.

It also seems from the picture that the subdial at 3 o'clock, the 10 and 20 don't line up like first batch HBB. It has been fixed both on my RG version, Tuiga RG and Tuiga SS.

[Pix]

I would say that it's possible to have it "cheaper". Like V1 lite + aftermarket AR coating. That will make really good price (under 400 usd) or... V1 lite + AR + gen ceramic bezel... This is still about 500 USD.

That's the way I chose

[takashi]

From what I understand, Watchmark also has this "ultimate" version in 700ish range with ceramic bezel and etc (i.e.: V1).

[Pix]

I think this version should disappear : it's his "better" version, but actually has a screw down crown (I heard this privately from a member).

So not the same as the V1 as we recognize it : an other manufacturer for sure, as it has also thin shaped and engraved rotor.

[takashi]

Ah I see! Thanks for clarifying Pix.

So this RG watch was V1 without screw down crown and stickers on rotor. But screws are also black on the movement:

This is the 10 and 20 that I was talking about, actually it was fixed on v1.

[Pix]

Black screws are correct, as far as I could see on the 360

[takashi]

You are certainly right but as I posted before... even with the non saw tooth, it is still wrong. The gen has the shape just looks like gen ETA7750's rotor.

[Pix]

Sure... We'll probably never have a perfect rep of the 7750. However, we're going into really expert details IMO, as the 2 tells for non initiated watch lovers are the regulator and this axis.

The challenge of this new version is to be closer to the gen than the others for an (hopefully) affordable price. When I first saw this prototype,I thought "we have it" ! But as for all ultimate versions, it still needs improvements.

The question is : is it better than the V1 and V2 or not ? I think yes, but there are surely different minds amongst members, starting with the choice of the movement.

HEY, THAT WAS MY 2000th post

[takashi]

Congrats on your 2000th post. I agree on the movement to be a low beat to keep the cost low but how much different it is if it's gonna be upgraded to hi beat asian 7750. It's not really a straight swap to ETA7750 frankly on both cases. Even ETA7753 would be wrong for this model too. So you need a modified 7750 just like what The Zigmeister and other members have done.

Even a hi beat movement, when chrono is running, minute counter will advance at 57/58th second, again this is a dead giveaway for ALL Asian 7750 hi beat (but not the low beat).

Totally agree with you that it's definitely a few step closer to get a more "closer to gen" HBB rep but still lots of room for improvement IMHO.

[Pix]

Taka,

here's the old "official" comparison from Hublot.

I think indeed this version is in any case a step forward.

I'm just a bit worrying about your comments on the too thin font on the rep. I find it very thin on the gen. Am I correct ?

[takashi]

Sorry for being not very clear. I was referring not to the boldness but to the font shape. It looks "thinner" on this engraved improved v2 version.

EDIT: Please refer to the "H" on gen too

Edited May 25, 2008 by takashi

[Pix]

Got it !

I'm afraid all these improvements can't happen with today's means.

But let's stay positive : better and cheaper than the V1 ?

[takashi]

Hehe... so I think... and I think again... Tuiga is still way to go For me personally, on a closed caseback watch, I don't care about movement/rotor shape.

[Pix]

For the reference, this is the Tuiga Monaco (we're talking about a RG HBB version)

Closed caseback, different dial and flag on the side.

Make it for less than 600, could be the ultimate HBB ?

We're however far from the original idea.

[takashi]

well the ultimate one should be SS based I think. Tuiga SS, take care of weight problem, personally I like the RG one more.

[zenpang]

i'd go for the rose gold tuiga at some point if it was made

[watchmark]

Hehe... so I think... and I think again... Tuiga is still way to go For me personally, on a closed caseback watch, I don't care about movement/rotor shape.

dear friend

i also have Big Bang Tuiga Monaco 18K RG Ceramic version watch with 28.8K movement with very good price. do you want it? PM me. thanks

[Pix]

IMO, even the Tuiga should have these new improvements on the movement/rotor : it surely does not cost more and in any case make it look more genuine.

So, ideally, all what we discussed, with Tuiga dial, side and closed caseback.

I think that the thick crystal Taka suggested is something that only a gen owner will notice, and even, I'm not sure about that. That's IMO not the first tell.

Dial is very important indeed.

[Chronus]

I'd go for a great SS Tuiga version with the best ceramic bezel.

is it supposed to have the flags on the side of the case (other side of crown side) ? I'm not sure i see these on the most expensive versions.