TeeJay Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Lying to people that are idiots and asking stupid questions of strangers however...is FAIR GAME in my books. Or, as it was put in an episode of Highlander, "It's not about if you give your word, but who you give it too..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Or, as it was put in an episode of Highlander, "It's not about if you give your word, but who you give it too..." Ka-ching!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Ka-ching!!! There can be only one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxus Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 So in theory it's ok to lie to a self absorbed ignorant person since they wouldn't know or care if you were telling the truth or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 So in theory it's ok to lie to a self absorbed ignorant person since they wouldn't know or care if you were telling the truth or not? If someone tries calling someone out in a public gathering, with the sole intention of making that person look bad, do they really deserve the courtesy of the truth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Yeah I think that is a fair statement. Hypocrites abound on both sides of the issue. You have gen owners who buy them as status symbols but you also have rep owners who buy reps so others will notice that they are wearing status symbols. Most of them in fact. Look, the whole industry rep and gen is populated by some very vain people. I'm not, and my interest is purely in perfected horology, but we can't just will away the truth of what makes the luxury world tick. Reps are really just an extention of that for people who want to look rich but aren't. Before anyone freaks out, I'm well aware that there are exceptions and most of those are here on RWG and the other rep forums. But make no mistake, most rep owners are not watch lovers or passionate people at all, they are trying to fool someone - mostly themselves. They are the exactly the people that ad was written for. It wasn't written for us watch lovers. It was written to tell people that if you want a status symbol buy a genuine one. Nothing personal - they don't even know or care about our little subset. In fact Bytor is right - most serious collectors here own both reps and gens. And I have to disagree with the statement earlier about gen forums. I have to say that you will find even more true watch lovers there by the numbers than here. Sorry but it is true. Most people who populate watch forums are enthusiasts and they are generally not interested in showing off. And TZ for one has been around a long time and just by the sheer numbers alone I have no doubt that there are more hardcore, true watch loving, non status symbol caring types there than here. Just a numbers game really. People like us and them just love watches. Look at me. I hang out on a rep forum and don't even own one. My collection is all gens. The lines are blurred... Is it true that lots of gen sales are to people who buy them as status symbols - yes. But they aren't usually on watch forums afterwards. They don't even know there is a forum. They are either golfing or counting stacks of hundreds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Yeah I think that is a fair statement. Hypocrites abound on both sides of the issue. You have gen owners who buy them as status symbols but you also have rep owners who buy reps so others will notice that they are wearing status symbols. Most of them in fact. Look, the whole industry rep and gen is populated by some very vain people. I'm not, and my interest is purely in perfected horology, but we can't just will away the truth of what makes the luxury world tick. Reps are really just an extention of that for people who want to look rich but aren't. Before anyone freaks out, I'm well aware that there are exceptions and most of those are here on RWG and the other rep forums. But make no mistake, most rep owners are not watch lovers or passionate people at all, they are trying to fool someone - mostly themselves. They are the exactly the people that ad was written for. It wasn't written for us watch lovers. It was written to tell people that if you want a status symbol buy a genuine one. Nothing personal - they don't even know or care about our little subset. In fact Bytor is right - most serious collectors here own both reps and gens. And I have to disagree with the statement earlier about gen forums. I have to say that you will find even more true watch lovers there by the numbers than here. Sorry but it is true. Most people who populate watch forums are enthusiasts and they are generally not interested in showing off. And TZ for one has been around a long time and just by the sheer numbers alone I have no doubt that there are more hardcore, true watch loving, non status symbol caring types there than here. Just a numbers game really. People like us and them just love watches. Look at me. I hang out on a rep forum and don't even own one. My collection is all gens. The lines are blurred... Is it true that lots of gen sales are to people who buy them as status symbols - yes. But they aren't usually on watch forums afterwards. They don't even know there is a forum. They are either golfing or counting stacks of hundreds... I think you're absolutely right there, bro. I think the reason why rep owners get on the defensive, is because the overwhelming opinion of the uninformed masses, is that as soon as a watch is discovered to be a rep, the immediate assumption is that they've bought the rep to fool everyone into thinking it's a gen, as if no other possible reason for having a rep could exist, and it's then very hard to try and convince someone that a watch has not been purchased to try and pass it off as gen, especially when the some wag from the peanut gallery can always be guaranteed to chime in "Me thinks he doth protesteth too much..." Fuck that. I buy reps because I'm too tight-fisted to buy the gens. Even if I could afford them, I wouldn't buy them. I don't think they're worth the money, but that's just my personal opinion. I'm quite happy to tell anyone who is genuinely interested in my watch that it's a rep, but if someone is simply displaying their lack of class, or trying to 'score points' (which to be honest, no one ever has) I don't see why I should dignify their comments with a serious response. Sure, they're right, it is a rep, but it's not a rep purchased for the reasons they want to imply, so from that point of view, I'd be quite happy to just brush them off with a snarky comment, but I still wouldn't actually lie about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 So in theory it's ok to lie to a self absorbed ignorant person since they wouldn't know or care if you were telling the truth or not? More of an issue of if you cross the line of tact, class, decorum and grace...don't expect to be treated with that which a civil person should expect. If somebody out of the blue appears to be generally interested in watches and wants more details...I will be honest...but be an idiot about it...I'll be an idiot back...get what you project...that's what I'm saying. And I have to disagree with the statement earlier about gen forums. I have to say that you will find even more true watch lovers there by the numbers than here. Sorry but it is true. I agree fully here. I may have referenced RWG and the rep forums as a point to focus on fakes being the topic of discussion, but I would say there are a lot of people on rep forums who are also TZ and gen forum regulars. Watch forums in general, are populated by a mix of passers-through (looking for that one watch...gen or rep), and the regular contributors who are watch-hores...and not reflective of the general populace of watch buyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 More of an issue of if you cross the line of tact, class, decorum and grace...don't expect to be treated with that which a civil person should expect. If somebody out of the blue appears to be generally interested in watches and wants more details...I will be honest...but be an idiot about it...I'll be an idiot back...get what you project...that's what I'm saying. Precisely, it's about mutual respect from both parties, not just some jackass asking a question, and demanding an answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Exactly. And this whole discussion even is what sets us apart from the pack - and why I hang out here instead of TZ (well I do post there a bit...). There is just a higher level of conciousness about it all here. As you know, I'm exactly the opposite of you and I usually think it is the reps which are not worth the money and wish they solved the little detail issues and were a grand instead of three hundred, but had dirt free crystals and movements. LOL. And I as you know do think the gens I buy were worth every penny mostly because they make me happy. I repeat all this really just to reiterate that we are both the exception to the rule in that we have trancended what was supposed to be a simple luxury item and choice based on status to most into something that is pure truth and feeling. And that is something 99% of anyone who buys a luxury watch - rep of gen never even considers. We discuss, purchase, enjoy what moves us - NOT what moves others which as you point out is assumed to be the motivation of EVERY rep buyer and of course it isn't so. But I say let them obsess on it and be tortured by it. Meanwhile we will all sit back and enjoy our watches rep and gen! I think you're absolutely right there, bro. I think the reason why rep owners get on the defensive, is because the overwhelming opinion of the uninformed masses, is that as soon as a watch is discovered to be a rep, the immediate assumption is that they've bought the rep to fool everyone into thinking it's a gen. It's very hard to try and convince someone that a watch has not been purchased to try and pass it off as gen, especially when the some wag from the peanut gallery can always be guaranteed to chime in "Me thinks he doth protesteth too much..." [censored] that. I buy reps because I'm too tight-fisted to buy the gens. Even if I could afford them, I wouldn't buy them. I don't think they're worth the money, but that's just my personal opinion. I'm quite happy to tell anyone who is genuinely interested in my watch that it's a rep, but if someone is simply displaying their lack of class, or trying to 'score points' (which to be honest, no one ever has) I don't see why I should dignify their comments with a serious response. Sure, they're right, it is a rep, but it's not a rep purchased for the reasons they want to imply, so from that point of view, I'd be quite happy to just brush them off with a snarky comment, but I still wouldn't actually lie about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitersoze Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 is it just me, or is that not a really bad rep of a gen hand? sheeeeet, i could spot that from across the room, even if it were wearing a really large gen watch. ...though i still would have enough tact and courtesy not to call her out on it! What if you have both fakes and "reals"? Does that make you schizophrenic ? nah, that just makes you REAL fake. or perhaps a FAKE real person... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 ...I usually think it is the reps which are not worth the money and wish they solved the little detail issues and were a grand instead of three hundred, but had dirt free crystals and movements. LOL. It's funny...because it's all grades of poo-pooing those that are a notch or 2 "below" what you're used to. In the general populace, anybody spending $200 on a watch is generally considered one who buys a nice watch as most people wear a $25 plastic digital...or a $100 x-brand metal quartz thing. $300 on a rep is in my books...not an inexpensive watch. It's certainly not an expensive watch...but really, in the LARGER scheme of things (not the top-5%-of the economic population scheme of things)...reps are somewhat expensive. Add in gen parts...servicing...mods, and it's certainly not inconceivable that a high end, well maintained rep be closer to $600 of an investment...add in the fact that most rep enthusiasts have at least 5 watches...you're still talking an investment probably in the >$1,000 range which is still a substantial investment in a luxury item for most folks. Now...to someone buying a gen Omega or Tag or something...they would think $600 is lower end...not cheap...as their's are probably in the $1500 - $4000 range. Then...to someone buying Rollies, UN's, IWCs, etc...they would think Tags and Omegas are cheap wannabe watches as their's are closer to the $7000-$12,000...then to someone buying Dewitt, VC, Patek...they would think those are cheap, etc, etc...it's kind of like looking down on people who buy Porsche Boxsters or BMW 3 series cars...they do so because they want to enter "the club" and can't afford the real GT or M-series...either way, an investment in any new car is a substantial investment to the general populace...regardless of brand. It's all kind of funny. Personally...I look down on everyone equally...if not for their choice in watches (gen/fake)...their bad hygiene, over-weightness, lack of hair, bad teeth, ugly friends, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 You got that right Toad. You and I are a lot alike. At the end of the day I think most people take themselves WAY too seriously and I do the same thing as you and laugh at them all. I once had a girl tell me I should be drinking Coca Cola because it was going to rot my stomach while she was freebaseing on front of me and saying it between hits... For me, I know my behavior is insane and I don't care - that is the difference. To me that there are people on gen forums that have a Lange and actually look down on Omegas. That is as funny as people on here owning reps of luxury items and then putting down people who buy luxury items that aren't reps, because after all, it is their superior intellect that has allowed them to leave the suckers in the dust by secretly purchasing a $300 rep that spits in the eye of those greedy Swiss who have created this broad conspiracy to overcharge the world? I wonder if those people are addicts or something because they seem to think everything is about them... BTW, I've studied some watch company financials and ironically they can't be overcharging. Their margins aren't all that great. Sure, they are doing 200M in revenue, but it is expensive to be in the luxury biz. The ad budgets are huge as are the R&D costs. Anyone who knows anything about anything knows that the true irony of any business industry with competitors is that the market is always right. Luxury watches cost EXACTLY what they are supposed to given the factors involved. If they were overpriced, the market would price it in immediately by way of competition lowering prices to increase demand. It happens all the time actually and notice that the prices only go so low. There is no conspiracy there. Standard sh*t. Don't get me started on efficient market theory. Everything costs what it is worth. Value is determined by the actions of market participants and is also limited by the hard costs of producing and marketing a product. Anyone who thinks a watch is overpriced might do better to blame display rates at Robb Report rather than those "Greedy Swiss". Greed's got nothing to do with it. Gens, reps, and toilet paper all cost (sell for) exactly what they are worth. An individuals perception of worth has no bearing on it other than he can choose not to participate. Anything else can explain why thousands of traders lose money everyday chasing bad positions. I see it happen all the time. "No wait - how can it be at 850. I KNOW the support level is 875. This is going to turn around any minute. I KNOW it..." Price is value. Volume precedes price. If people buy the price goes up. If people don't the price goes down. But then with tangible goods there is always a low value that cannot be exceeded or the goods will cease to be made so it isn't that simple. Remember, the margins are not that big. I hear that all the time. People say its not at manufactory it is at retail. Well top line retail is 50% and most aren't getting that with most brands and even if they did - what rock does one live under to think 50% is a great retail margin? It doesn't get good until it crosses a hundred or two guys. Rep margins exceed gen margins at retail - and besides, like gens they are worth exactly what they are priced at. The market says so... So in this slowdown you will see that play out in Switzerland. My sources say they are already doing it. They are tightening supply. They have to. They can't lower prices with reduced sales as the numbers no longer work. It is a machine with many parts so to speak. Ironically, they have to stop selling instead of lowering prices and ride it out. That is what they are doing. And the decreased supply is effecting demand. There is just not a ton of new watches in the pipeline right now because they are trying to find the sweet spot for demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 You got that right Toad. You and I are a lot alike. At the end of the day I think most people take themselves WAY too seriously and I do the same thing as you and laugh at them all.. There is just not a ton of new watches in the pipeline right now because they are trying to find the sweet spot for demand. I condesnsed your post to a "short story" from an "Epic Novel" Robbie..... Man you guy's must type at light speed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Thanks brah - you know I do it all jus for you! I condesnsed your post to a "short story" from an "Epic Novel" Robbie..... Man you guy's must type at light speed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I condesnsed your post to a "short story" from an "Epic Novel" Robbie..... Man you guy's must type at light speed... Heh heh...verbal diarrhea they say...but I mean that in the best way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 BTW, I've studied some watch company financials and ironically they can't be overcharging. Their margins aren't all that great. Sure, they are doing 200M in revenue, but it is expensive to be in the luxury biz... This is a major problem for the luxury business (watches, clothes etc etc) I think, they might not have big margins on their sales because they do so much more than just the product itself, they have to keep the status of the brand name up, advertising etc etc. This is a problem since the complexity, production cost etc of the actual product itself does not match the very high price of it. Just the fact that their products CAN be made for 1/200th the price and look the same, feel the same and even have the same properties and materials (well, not completely true always obviously, but often very close to it) would seem ridiculous in any other market. I mean, you don't find a replicated 200 grand car (any brand) for 1 grand or even anywhere close, simply because no one can do it, the materials, parts, technology etc used is complicated and costs a lot of money. I'm not saying their products are not complex, but hey, maybe they've chosen the wrong type of product for their market then, the majority of their customers are probably not interested at all about exactly whats inside the watch, what they can't see. They want the looks and the correct behaviour of the watch. But besides the product itself, what you get when you buy luxury is a piece of the status they have worked so hard for. Sadly for them, this status is too easy to steal and use in arbitrary products. Their price might not a problem, status is not intended for everyone, just a few, people with money are willing to pay the price. But their status goes away when prices goes down and their brand gets to common, and no one wants to buy their stuff anymore simply because then it is just expensive, nothing more. Well, I'm not native english speaking, but you catch my drift. Anyway, personally I don't care about status, and I agree with most of you guys here on the forum, love this place! I'm simply crazy about watches .. lets just hope the luxury brands have good enough margins to survive the rep industry and continue to produce more of these lovely things Take care all! Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Meanwhile we will all sit back and enjoy our watches rep and gen! That sounds like a plan to me, bro Double Ten boys rollin' through Exactly. And this whole discussion even is what sets us apart from the pack - and why I hang out here instead of TZ (well I do post there a bit...). There is just a higher level of conciousness about it all here. You're right there, that's what makes this such an awesome community People're here because they love watches, regardless of what kind they are As you know, I'm exactly the opposite of you and I usually think it is the reps which are not worth the money and wish they solved the little detail issues and were a grand instead of three hundred, but had dirt free crystals and movements. LOL. The thing is though, if they were that bit more expensive, then they'd be nearing gen prices (with watches like Omega and Rolex) and I think that might be prohibitive to people who buy reps because they can't afford the gens. I think it would put me off, as again, I would think that a high price, but also, it would be prohibitive to having a collection of several nice reps. While the gen world could survive on those prices, I'm not so sure the rep world could... I mean, sure, someone could save up and then buy the expensive rep, but, by the time they've save that much, they'd probably just be prepared to buy the gen and be done with it... I repeat all this really just to reiterate that we are both the exception to the rule in that we have trancended what was supposed to be a simple luxury item and choice based on status to most into something that is pure truth and feeling. And that is something 99% of anyone who buys a luxury watch - rep of gen never even considers. We discuss, purchase, enjoy what moves us - NOT what moves others which as you point out is assumed to be the motivation of EVERY rep buyer and of course it isn't so. But I say let them obsess on it and be tortured by it. I think you're spot on there, bro. I think once people start buying watches to please themselves, rather than to please others, that's when they'll start being happier with their purchases Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAHLER Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 :thumbsupsmileyanim: :thumbsupsmileyanim: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siger125 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I think, they might not have big margins on their sales because they do so much more than just the product itself, they have to keep the status of the brand name up, advertising etc Your kidding about luxury brand not having big margins right?. As far as rep a car...well...sorry but you can buy yourself a nice rep Ferrari. same deal as for watches....same exterior but the engine might not be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
801run Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Your kidding about luxury brand not having big margins right?. As far as rep a car...well...sorry but you can buy yourself a nice rep Ferrari. same deal as for watches....same exterior but the engine might not be the same. Yes, margin wasn't the right word there of course, I'm sure the margin is huge. What I meant is that it prolly have to be huge to get a decent ROI, taking in mind RnD, advertising and all that. Ok well, there might be rep cars .. but I doubt that Ferrari has anyway near the same problem with rep cars as e.g. Breitling have with rep watches .. what I'm trying to say I guess is that I can really understand that this whole rep scene is a huge problem for the luxury brands, and it's probably not getting easier for them either, with better and better reps and the scene growing larger and larger. Which I think is good of course =) just hope they survive, but they will .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Schezar Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I wonder how many people who buy 'real' watches have fake breasts, capped teeth and hair plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBond Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 When people bought Gen and Rep what kind of person are they? Hybrid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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