kanerich

I live in Japan. Short of being a drag-queen pretty much everything passes as heterosexual male fashion here (including Panerais, which are highly esteemed), so this discussion would be incomprehensible here. And vice versa.

Someone was right saying that poeple if they are still people willing to pay su much money for a rep. They still continue to use this kind of method.

But it is also right to say that the it normally cost 13000 $ for a HBB Black Magic. Ceramic cost a lot of money and especially the work that has been done on it, such polishing,....

However it is really sad to see such poor movement part used...but this is chinese standart they don't ask for 100% quality (this is not the same way to see quality in China as we do in developped country such as America or European Union,... that's why they hire a lot of european in the big standart industy) we need to a 100% free of bug but it is not a standart industry and they won't change anything for us...

But, yes, one day, perhaps we will have a version 2 with more enhancements but I'm really not sure about it...

A watch with broken hands for which you can't source parts is worthless. It doesn't really matter if the original costs $13,000 . . . if you get something worthless for $600 all you did was waste $600, you did not "save" $12,400. You may as well argue that any time I'm in the mood to buy something that costs $50 I should flush $10 down the toilet instead and save myself $40. It simply is neither here nor there.

Is this a replica forum......?

Yes, but it's a 1:1 PERFECT ULTIMATE sapphire glass superb lumed Asian Swiss Valjoux 7750 clone copy homage replica of a gen forum. Confuses some people.

Hot dang. I don't know if it's exactly my cup of (green) tea but it's mighty impressive regardless.

There's nothing wrong with Shabber's point . . . I agree with him completely, although mostly because I don't feel that strongly about it. But I will probably still buy five reps instead of one gen as long as there are reps I want. The gens will be waiting for me whenever I want them, I know that for sure. Great reps, on the other hand . . . who knows what things will be like in 5 or 10 years. I make no excuses about how much practical sense it makes, but I like having a bunch of reps. Same reason why I spend time on this board . . . I could be doing lots of more productive things, but I don't. Oh well.

Frankly, I'm too old and too often wrong and nevertheless pretty happy with my life to give a crap about justifying everything I do all the time. So you want to say I should be buying reps, I will agree with you. You say I should be buying gens, I will agree with you. You think I should only buy gens over $3000 and reps under $200 or only reps with simple movements and only vintage gens or only reps of Pams and gens of Sinns and Eternas or whatever else the various people on this board seem to feel, that's all fine with me. And if you pay for what I buy, I am more than happy to let you make me practice what you preach. Otherwise, I'm probably still buying reps. That tendency is probably why I browse TZ and post here, after all.

Also, I would note lots of members including myself own both kinds, so the gen vs. rep debate exists only in relative terms to us anyway . . .

Agree. I too think: stupid/pusher/criminal/politician = gen. Smart guy = fake.

That's so darn true and non-judgmental (which I thought was what Maxse was annoyed about in the first place, or maybe only when it's not hypocritical) I'm surprised it's not the eleventh commandment or something. Between this and big gay confused can't spell Stephanie desperate Trevor (not that there's anything wrong with one of those things) I have certainly never been prouder of being a member of this board.

So yea. I went to this party today for a barbecue wearing my Bentley GT.

It was in a backyard... About half-way into the party my friend comes up to me and tells me that my watch is fake! So I give him a puzzled look and say what are you talking about? He says that some young guy at this party is a jeweler/watch dealer and he told him and a bunch of people that my watch is fake!

So I come up to this guy and pull him to the side and ask him why he thinks that my watch is fake. He asks to to take it off and I do.

So now I'm like damn he's gonna call me out on the font. But no, he pushes the button for the chronometer; it works. He still maintains that he has experience selling watches for 7 years and he is sure it is a fake. I press on for him to tell me why. He turns the watch over so I think he's gonna say something about the 't' not being crossed. Nope all is good here. He finally rotates the bezel and says that it should not rotate freely like this on the gen, and when he tried to set the time he said that the hour markers should rotate clockwise when adjusting the time, not counter-clockwise.

He also tried to open the caseback at which point I was like uhm.. what are you doing? So he handed it back to me and I said I would take it up with the person I bought it from...

This defininetly was not a pleasant expericen and I think this guy is an a**hole no? I mean he went around telling everyone he could find that my watch was a fake! I mean why would he do that.

And what has me even MORE curious is the fact the he knew it was a fake by looking at it from my wrist, yet all the way he explained that it was fake were by touching it and moving the handles and bezel. He also said the bracelet didnt look right when he was holding it... But how was he able to deterine this by looking at it while it was on my wrist! Thoughts/Comments? What should I have said?

The guy was being an a-hole, but he was right, your watch was fake . . . so you're kind of stuck.

Yes, he probably eyeballed you and whatever combination of age and other impressions he took into account, decided that your watch could not be real. It happens . . . if I'm at Vegas and an 18-year old is wearing a PM Daytona and buying in at a 10-dollar table I'm going to assume the watch is fake. Now I wouldn't make an issue of it, but it's just common sense.

To me, this is the inherent problem of wearing Bentley or Ferrari watches . . . if you don't have the car, just the watch you're going to get crap from somebody sooner or later. Next time go with the SuperOcean, you'll get less grief.

Also, once you engaged him and demanded that he show you why the watch was fake . . . you lost. Look, guys who wear $5,000 watches laugh off that kind of [censored], they say "hey don't hate the player, hate the game" and go do something more useful with their time. Nobody with a gen asks people "how can you tell it's fake," they pat the playa-hata on the head and enjoy life.

Do they believe you?

Awesome

Yeah, I tell my co-workers everything about myself even if they don't ask, people love that.

SHHHHHH!!!!!! We don't need to announce to the WWWeb how clever (exactly how clever) the shipping of contraband has become!

I remember one time I got a watch from abay in 2004, the customs form said "toy wristwatch." Man, he wasn't even trying back then.

I know you don't like us giving away "inside" tips to our enemies, but I couldn't resist.

I agree that the outcry over prices seems a bit strident . . . we were paying $350 for Pam Luminor Marina reps two years ago that weren't particularly accurate compared to what we're getting now. I paid around $350 for the Asian Pam 187 when it came out last summer . . . this IWC is a better rep.

Yeah, $400+ is steep for a rep but you can vote with your wallet, and I'm sure we should all be pleased to have as many options as possible. I'm not interested in the Big Bang but I'm glad rep makers are putting out creative quality reps either way. Yeah so everything is not quite as cheap as we'd like. But that's true in all facets of life, why should reps be different?

Can't we all just get along?

The guy asked a question about MBW Royal Oaks. what they were and more importantly where to find them. He received a varied range of responses.. Some politely hinted he should search more througly, others less politely castigated him. I think by the time he got to By-Tor's reply (which may have been a little stining) he was a bit defensive and thus over-reacted .. if you want to know why, go back and re-read some of the replies that preceeded that. They were unnecessarily sarcastic.

Again, remember this guy sees a new site with comments and access to all this good stuff, but the MBW's are cloaked in this double secret mystery cape.. and most of what IS posted relates to rollies... he is looking for a Royal Oak... natural reaction is to ask what gives. SLAM!!!

Sure, given recent events we need to be carefull, but he doesn't know that. So he gets defensive and reacts to some of the earlier sarcastic posts inappropriately.. .and it all goes down hill from there. Guys, this really is a very intimidating place for new comers. I know many of you who are truly expert in the trade get a lot of PM's from noobs... it must be a pain... but it is also a compliment. But in all honestly the PM issue really isn't germane.. he did not PM, he posted a new thread.

Well said, I'm totally with you on this one.

I would also note that it is possible to just IGNORE people instead of making a big old hullabaloo about things.

Well my watch arrived today in a tin can Disney alarm clock, guess I was lucky. Well my next watch will definitely be from one of the above dealers. Anyways thanks for the advice guys!

Glad to hear it worked out! Sounds like Honpo has got its game on . . . but I still prefer to deal with dealers shipping from Taiwan.

I'm just curious, where are you Japan-based members at? I'm in Kyoto. Representin' the 075 babee! No reps here but the chicks are classy and the city's nice -- not too frenetic, not too boony. Osaka's more fun but Kyoto is a lot less grungy . . . and when you're happily married (i.e. wife watches you like a hawk) probably not so much fun Japanese style is a good thing . . .

Non-cartel dealers were regularly selling the UPO for $179-189, so I don't see why $200 for a Casino Royale PO would be some kind of outrageous bargain.

Recently, I moved to Japan, and ever since, I have no idea where the good reps are. Is purchasing reps online still a good idea from Japan?

When I lived in the US, this was not a problem, and have been buyng reps for a while, but I've been told it's too strict here in Japan.

If you want to buy reps in Japan, try to find dealers in the EU or Taiwan. In my experience (and other Japanese rep fans) customs is tighter concerning packages from mainland China. My wife's cousin works for Japan post and he tells me it is a policy they have in place. As a foreigner you can just deny any knowledge of any shipment if you get caught, but if it happens several times eventually immigration will get on you. Basically, my advice is that if you want reps, go ahead and order them but if you get caught once, give it up. It's not worth it. And your chances of getting caught will be less if you find a dealer who doesn't ship from mainland China.

I've bought a bunch of watches from EL and River (who both ship from Taiwan) w/o problems.

Because I've got a bunch of them and I bought them to wear them, not to gather dust. I often switch watches several times a day -- if I'm home puttering around i might wear half a dozen over the course of a given day. Hey why not.

I generally don't worry much about what I wear when and where, except when I think for some reason I can't even risk the 0.001% of getting caught when I can't afford it (important client meeting, etc) then I wear the gen Exp II. When I'm doing pro bono or something I go with the Seiko Monster, doesn't go with a suit but that doesn't bother those types. I never wear my TT datejust (heirloom from my dad) for any reason -- maybe when I make partner. Otherwise it's all reps all the time, and I tend to fall in and out of love with the ones I have. Right now, I mostly rotate the Ultimate PO, Pam 212 on custom Aaron Tan lizard strap and the IWC Inge chrono as they seem to cover most needs.

I'd love to buy such Daytona just for kicks... if the visuals only were as good as on the seconds at '6 7750-timebomb.

Here's pics -- looks pretty standard rep-quality to me. I agree with you, for $100, why the heck not?

Stay away from Ken. He has decided that it's worth it to start scamming senior members around here. What an idiot.

Anyhow, u have been forwarned.

He's still got a decent reputation here in Japan . . . pity he's decided that he doesn't have to be ethical as a general rule. In any case I'm not suggesting people buy from Ken, rather that this watch is likely to be offered by other dealers soon and probably is of interest to some members. I would personally choose it over the jury-rigged Asian 7750 -- it's just not worth it to spend $300 on a watch that is likely to become a paperweight in a few months.

I can't link or show pictures, but most of you know how to get to the watchhonpo site.

Ken's selling a new low-end Daytona for only 12000 yen (about $100) -- it is cosmetically the same as the modded Asian 7750 but uses some cheap Chinese movement where the nine and three o'clock subdials and the chronograph hand are all nonfunctional. The six o'clock second dial does sweep, however. Yeah, it's a bit dodgy but hey, it's $100 and I can see some people springing for it and I'm not at all convinced it's a worse way to go than the time-bomb modded Asian 7750 for a third of the price.

Hey, it's cool with me. By changing its watches every couple of years and introducing about 10,000 different models (but all of them limited editions!) Panerai makes it almost impossible for casual fans, let alone lay people, to detect what makes a Pam a Pam . . . and as a consequece makes our reps more authentic seeming and better value.

Just to be clear, I don't think this is about whether you should wear a rep into an AD, period. I don't think I or anyone else is categorically saying members should refrain from ducking into the local Tourneau or Ben Bridges to kill some time while the wife is buying shoes. But keep it half under a sleeve, smile and say "I'm just looking" instead of sticking your rep under the saleman's nose and saying "how you like this beyotch, BAM!!!, the Chinese are going to put you out of business with this [censored] hoo hoo!" Why is that hard?

Also, I hear this all the time, that it's OK to tweak AD salesmen because they're ignorant anyway. But then isn't it just pointless then? If people who work in AD's don't know much about the watches they sell and don't really care, then what is the point of messing with them, except to thrill over having successfully pretended to be several thousand dollars richer than you actually are (or more perversely since a lot of members of the board are quite successful), or having successfully pretended to be as capable of spending money as you actually are? Are people really that petty and insecure?

As far as I am familiar with the law on such things, and common sense in general, in the Western World (as well as most other countries), it's NOT AT ALL illegal to own any replica or fake item.

It is only illegal to produce or sell such items, because you are gaining profit by abusing a brand name (you don't own the brand, don't have rights to use it, you potentially take away their profits and so forth).

Imagine that owning a fake item would be illegal, girls wearing fake Louis Vuitton handbags and wallets would get arrested by the cops all the time

To be sure, in a country with a democratic system, it's not allowed for an Authentic Dealer to confiscate anything. You're not breaking the law, and if you were, he isn't a law enforcer, so the worst that can happen is getting insulted and thrown out

First of all, in some countries including Singapore and Italy (and I'm pretty sure also France, etc.) it IS illegal to merely own reps. This has been covered on this forum numerous times.

Secondly, fine, in your particular country it isn't illegal to own reps, just to traffic in them. But do you really want to get into an argument over it, get insulted, publicly humiliated and thrown out? Why is that your idea of a good time? Also, some dealers think they do have the right to confiscate reps because THEY'RE ignorant of the law. Others will try to bluff you because they know the public knowledge of the law is low. It's just not worth it.

It isn't illegal to run a website that that doesn't sell reps, just discuss them, and yet here we are, getting scrutinized with our trade and dealer sections shut down. And we've still got people arguing technicalities, and not even correctly.

It's a nice watch, but considering that it looks to have basically identical specs (2824 with date at 6, 200m water resistance) as the Oris TT1 that can be had for around $700, I'll be interested in seeing how it's priced. If it's fairly priced it might be worth it to plump for the gen.

Well, this sucks. Of course some of the dealers stopped posting regularly here months ago, so this is somewhat less devastating for them.

Etiquette be damned.

Formal rules of how to dress, and act, for that matter, are rules that are made to be broken.

Avant Garde should be viewed as more acceptable than rules against it.

Wearing a beautiful watch (which of course is in the eye of the beholder) should be a decision based soley on what is beautiful for you, not 'them'.

I own a Cartier Tank Francias, and I wear it with SS and or black alligator WHENEVER I feel like it. The ONLY reason not to wear a sport watch with a suit is because it doesn't fit under a long sleeve shirt...NOT because Joe Blow would think it unacceptable. Screw that guy.

The original poster didn't ask about what individual people feel comfortable about doing, he asked if people knew what established conventions were, which is a completely different question. Your response is like saying "f&ck the law, the man sucks, Nobody can tell me what to do!" in response to a question about customs regulations in X country. Okay you're cool, but what did that really have to do with the original question?

People think Picasso was a crazy avant-garde painter, but a lot of them don't know that he was classically trained, won the French grand prix and studied in Italy. It was after he mastered the fundamentals that he developed his own style. You don't have follow the rules, but you're always better off knowing what they are, and I appreciate this attempt to collect interesting information.

I basically agree. I honestly said my peace about wanting to have a cool watch from a cool company on my wrist. I only started getting "rational" when a few members decided to sniff haughtily at my question and start throwing around aesthetic reasoning, completely ignoring the totally shallow end of the pool we ALL inhabit by wearing high priced knockoffs. I can shovel the sh** like anybody here (except maybe TTK whose sarcasm and intellect are killers). But I want discourse which doesn't devolve into stuff like how Mondrian really had it going on with all those colored squares, or Picasso's Red Period is exquisite.

The reason for my delving into the subject of quartz's is due to 1. my lack of knowledge, 2.the insanity of looking for old threads similar to the one I started. I wanted opinions from a representative group of this massing of watch fanatics. The more responses I've read, the more I'm turned on by the auto watches. I can start to feel my fingers elongating...breathgrowingshort...teeth getting longer pain...have to pant ...need to howl. Basically, I'm screwed by the answers to my own question. Thanks to By-Tor, I have some confidence I won't need to crack open the case immediately and start screwing things up.

Anyway, thanks for the response. Well said.

It's funny, but I bought my wife a rep ladies datejust, she really liked the way it looked but she was annoyed by the fact that it would stop. I bought her a used Tag quartz for $150 at the local secondhand shop, which after a polishing, rebrushing and a new battery it was 98% good as new. She wears it as her daily beater and loves it. So I understand the phenomenon. I would also point out my experience is part of the problem -- there really are not that many high end quartz watches that you can't buy for a few hundred bucks used, especially if you're going to use it for a beater anyway and don't mind a couple of scuffs. So why get a rep?

As far as fighting with the "mechanical watches have soul" crowd . . . I know you know already, but it's a waste of time. It's an emotional visceral thing anyway, so once someone buys into it so you're not going to carry the day with argument no matter how good it is. It's like trying to talk a devout Christian into embracing atheism by explaining to him the logical flaws of his faith, or "proving" to a loving parent that his daughter is, empirically speaking, rather ugly. Ain't gonna happen.

Regarding the shallow pool we inhabit by wearing high-priced knockoffs . . . most of the old-time, regularly posting members own gens in addition to rep. It is because they love mechanical watches but can't buy 20 of them that they buy reps. A lot of us basically started off because we thought it would be a lark to check out what fakes are like compared to our gens, and got hooked when we saw how good they can be. So I'm not sure that's necessarily a fair characterization. The posers who just want fake bling to show off at clubs, etc. don't stick around long, they get their watch and leave.

I have to admit I am a little puzzled by your comment that rep makers put mechanical movements in reps of quartz gens. the reverse might be true, but that hardly ever happens. To be honest, there are very, very few quartz gens that people are really interested in -- maybe the quartz SMP, Breitling Colt, Sinn UX but the best known reps everybody wants are mechanical watches with no quartz variants -- Moon watch, Submariner, Navitimer, Luminor Marina. If you check out the "big-box" rep websites like Trusty's or Wo-Mart, they have quartz reps of common quartz gens, like Cartier Tanks, Omega Constellations and the like. There just aren't that many quartz gens to begin with.