kanerich

Cosmetically, it looks no more or less PERFECT than lots of Sub reps currently being sold. I won't go over the cheesiness of putting "PERFECT" in quotation marks as a marketing ploy. I question the value of the mods that make this rep more PERFECT than the rest as seems like 80% hype and 20% substance. 1) why would you need to tear down and rebuild a genuine brand-new Swiss ETA? The chances of one having problems out of the box are less than even a skilled watchsmith messing it up inadvertently -- either way, close to zero. So why do this, except to say you did it? 2) Swiss-imported lubricants? This may be true, but other than tossing around the word "Swiss" in there because we all love it so much we want to marry it, what's the actual value and advantage of using Swiss-imported lubricants? If there is none discernable what's the big deal? 3) Tuned to meet "COSC standards?" Any genuine ETA movement can be easily tuned by a half-competent watchsmith to be accurate within +/-5 sec assuming it doesn't meet this accuracy out of the box. However, that's not what the COSC standard is, it involves maintaining this accuracy under various conditions, which I doubt this watch is tested for. So to say the watch meets COSC standards (admittedly pretty near automatic these days anyway) because it runs +/-5 sec sitting flat on a watchsmith's workbench is a bit misleading as that's just one part of the test and frankly the easiest one to pass. 4) The waterproofing is another aspect that seems a bit odd. As most people know, the Sub rep is pretty much water resistant to a reasonable degree, it's mostly a matter of simply making sure that the factory properly lubed and/or sealed the crystal gasket, caseback and crown O-rings. However, this rep supposedly has "additional" seals and gaskets. Really, and where would one stuff these multitudinous extra seals and gaskets without modifying the case? Deep sea diver watches like the gen 187 have double O-rings sealing the caseback, but to just to achieve 50m water resistance? 5) Swiss trained technicians do all this work? Come on, you don't need Swiss training to tune a bone-stock ETA movement and check the o-rings on a Chinese sub. I bet a competent one in China will do the work involved here for $5 a watch, if that. Again, I'm not saying this is untrue, but I question the value or advantage of this claim beyond just getting the word "Swiss" in there again. Also, I have no idea what "swiss-trained" means -- the Chinese watch company Peace Mark runs several watchsmith schools in China that purportedly teach using Swiss movements and have a few ETA-certified instructors (five total with the company) on the training staff. Is that "Swiss-trained"? I don't know, but I wouldn' be surprised if some people claimed it was. 6) Finally, this rep supposedly has the PERFECT band. However, a rep band is not PERFECT unless it has three-piece cast SEL's like the genuine item, which is far more expensive to duplicate and easier to spot than hollow midlinks anyway. I have yet to see a rep Rolex with the correct three-piece SEL's. I know I will get [censored] about "come on, they're just reps" and "it's just marketing." Yeah, bring it on. If a dealer's going to throw PERFECT in there about 10 times and charge $250 extra for mods, I want some proof it's not marketing smoke but actually something of substance. Frankly if "perfect" is just a meanless marketing phrase, how far do we have to go before "swiss movement" and "identical to genuine (bezel, band, etc." are also just meaningless marketing phrases? Why would we, as mostly consumers, want the market to go there? I'm not seeing it.

That was the more expensive watchhonpo 187 rep from a few months back. The current 187 is glue only, as I've had the misfortune to discover.

You gotta be careful, you're absolutely right . . . this is why the "all reps are the same, I just sell for cheaper" claim (which Paul has made literally dozens of times) burns me. Yeah, all reps are the same, but not all dealers carry the same reps of the same models.

Josh and Andrew's website still offer the old-style CA's so if they're no longer in production at all, that seems strange. They've been making Seawolfs and CA's with this bezel pearl for 2 years plus, there's no reason to change it for the worse except for one reason -- cut costs. And that's why I say, "all reps are not all the same."

Yes, the 177H I got from River is the same way, the "A/R" coating doesn't jump out at you but it's definitely there. In any case I can live with the anti-reflective crystal, it's the anti-adhesive bezel markers that bother me a lot more.

You can't compare the daytona with other asian 7750's because of the heavy modifications. A regular asian 7750 can be unreliable but it can also be fine. I have several with no or slight problems. But The Zigmeister has said that the Daytona movement is basically designed to fail.

http://www.aspire-eshop.com/product_info.p...roducts_id=1200 I got all excited seeing $219 then I noticed that the bezel pearl is weird Why this subtle downgrade? It would seem that despite Paul's favorite saying, all replicas are not the same.

I'm curious myself. I'm starting to think that everyone who bought a 187 should get a bag of bezel markers with the watch . . . it's the only way to ensure wearability . . .

Rolexes don't get much comment, but IMO that's more because they're not terribly eye-catching or interesting, not because everybody thinks they're fake. That's just rep owner paranoia. I rotated two watches (gen Explorer II and Datejust) for several years before discovering this site, I never heard anything except compliments, although those were rare also. I didn't get any "are those fake" comments, but then Asian-American professionals in LA wearing a nice watches (and driving nice cars, naturally) are about as rare as Mexican restaurants. A person would get himself into a lot of unnecessary confrontation going around in LA accusing every one they meet of wearing fake watches. I have gravitated away from wearing or buying Rolex reps, simply because they're not very interesting once you get over the "hee hee, I bought a fake Rolex" juvenility, and I've realized that for me, there's not much point to them. Pams by far draw the most comments, overwhelmingly positive in my experience. Although people have no idea what they are, or that the gens are very expensive. They just find them interesting looking. The crowning achievement was when my buddy, who wears a gen Daytona and has hitherto been at best gently contemptuous of my rep habit, eyed my 212 all during lunch before finally declaring "damn, I don't care if it's fake, I gotta get me one of those!"

I said I didn't appreciate the overwrought "perfect" and "1:1" puffery, I didn't say there was anything unethical about it. Although I certainly appreciate the savvy veteran with eight posts telling me what's up, thank god you're around to show me the ropes. In any case, I respect dealers who are upfront about what they sell, and I would think many of those who buy a lot of watches feel the same way. We're not going to stop collecting because the reps are less than perfect, but having established imperfection as an entirely obvious truth it's still worth dealing with people who don't BS you too much about what you're getting. As far as the A/R goes, good luck. I think the 187 is too low-production a model to interest davidsen. I'd be interested in seeing how many owners of the current 187 actually would spring $150 plus (my guess on what it would cost) on a AR crystal . . . my guess is not that many, 10-15 people at most. Not something for "just salesmen" to get too excited about. I can live with it, it's not nearly a daily wearer anyway.

You know, people need to call the dealers on this board out on some of that crap. I've always been annoyed by the "synthetic sapphire" = mineral glass nonsense, and now the "light AR" = no AR. I am not thrilled by the "perfect" and "1:1" stuff either. That's not marketing spin as some people claim, it's just not true.

The 187's from Joshua and Andrew are supposed to have AR? Guess I should have waited . . .

Yeah, customs would never check a package from North Korea. But seriously, it won't get any easier, and most likely a lot tougher, to sneak in reps cross borders. I know some of the members on this board are pretty young and tend to only know the now. 30 years ago MOST non EU/US countries didn't even have IP laws, let alone regularly enforce them, and that 10 years ago we barely had an internet worth talking about. As another member pointed out, until 5 years ago you could upload and download damn near anything you wanted, things are under significantly tighter control now in most western countries and Japan. So you can't just assume that the status quo now will be maintained for many years ahead. Customs is far from an iron curtain but the "always fooled 'em, always will" attitude is based on a pretty short-term view of things. So get it while the goin's good!

Unbelievable how stupid some people are. Well, actually it's sadly too believable. But I agree with Ken, it almost sounds too dumb to not be some kind of setup. We've had posts before where people pooh-poohed the fact that customs can catch packages. This was an extreme case, but the fact is that they can and they will, and it will ruin your day when it happens. So you never want to get too careless . . . this is still illegal after all.

I want to get high-quality reps too, but IMO it takes the fun out of the hobby to be on some kind of quest for flawlessness. Pondering the ideal form of a rep like some counterfeit-watch-loving Plato is all well and good but it's a lot more fun to actually buy and fiddle with real ones, even if they're not perfect.

And here I thought this topic would be about Ron Jeremy and other pornographic avatars. I don't really understand the "I gotta always be looking at women" argument for having nekkid avatars/signatures etc. You know, I'd told that the modern computer can have more than one internet session going at one time. And I am also told that there are websites with more and better naked pictures of women than this one. Watch streaming hardcore porn while surfing this site, I don't give a crap. But some members' alleged 24/7 need to be looking at porn (hey, whatever floats your boat) still doesn't mean it has to be posted HERE. I like porn too, but I also like to have some control over when I'm looking at it -- i.e., NOT all of a sudden while I'm reading about fake Panerais, with my wife watching TV next to me on the couch. As far as the workplace aspect of it goes, it does make a difference. Most honest HR directors will tell you that almost every employee wastes hours every day doing personal stuff on the net, so the company is unlikely to make that an issue unless your job performance is actually hurting because of your web habits. On the other hand, at least in the US, porn in the workplace = immediate grounds for termination because it subjects the company to legal exposure. And the HR director WILL fire you because if the company is later sued and it's discovered that he/she overlooked your porn habit, he/she and you WILL be fired. So the "who cares, it's all prohibited anyway" argument is wrong. Wasting an hour a day on this site at work might cost you your bonus. Getting caught looking at naked pictures at work will cost you your job.

I don't have a choice but to pry off the bezel, since I have to replace the faulty one I got. I imagine over time I won't be the only one. And while a misaligned bezel is not a minor issue, a minor issue on a huge watch kinda becomes a medium sized issue.

I don't really know what the big deal about new is though. I got my Explorer II from a friend who likes to flip watches. Paid him $2200 cash for it, no boxes or papers but 98% condition, four years old when I bought it. And yes it's real wiseguys. With the favorable exchange rates and the plentiful supply here in Japan, you can get a very clean used SD or Sub with SEL's for well under $3000 with box and papers even from well-regarded dealers. That's certainly the way I'd go if I was in the market.

Yes, but they didn't spend the time and money to obtain a Rolex dealership to engage in charity. A fat margin is part of what they bargained for. If you find that offensive that's OK but it's not really a terrible thing they're doing.

Just ask a cop there. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/30/nopd.looting/index.html

Come on now, what do you expect they make on their watches? 10% margin plus free mugs? The average Rolex AD has to put up a ton of money to open or buy his store . . . he has to put up a lot of [censored] from Rolex, probably the most arrogant, pain in the ass company regarding the way it treats its own dealers . . . he has to pay the rent and the employees and security guards and insure several million dollars worth of easily stealable stuff . . . a lot of these guys don't sell 50 Rolexes a day either, it's not a 7-Eleven he's running. So his margin has to reflect the cash flow he needs to generate given the lack of sales volume and the high fixed costs. I'm not saying Rolexes are a great deal I don't think it's primarily because the dealers are greedy bastards who are ripping you off. You will be hard pressed to even find used, private-party subs for much less than $3000, nobody will sell you a genuine new one for that price unless he needs a kidney. If you want a new Sub badly but not enough to pay $4000+ (a natural response), 1) go rep; 2) buy a Planet Ocean which is more watch for less money anyway.

I just realized that the 187 in Eddie's photo also has the misaligned bezel . . . so I guess I only have myself to blame for getting so excited about this watch, I didn't study the photos as closely as I should have. But it's still a bit disappointing for an "ultimate" $400 (nondiscounted) rep.

The swiss movement 212 with the correct black subdial hands is the best. Most of the dealers have it now, it's just the matter of price.

Exactly my opinion.

Pugwash is absolutely right. Furthermore, unlike rep makers I'm sure that certain motorcycle company also doesn't solely employ people in China for $5 a day with no health benefits, no pension, no insurance, no sick leave, no vacation pay. For many companies that manufacture their own product, labor, insurance and marketing eat up most of the operating costs, not making the product. Why do you think GM is facing bankruptcy, because the Corvette actually costs $46,000 simply to make? Also, when you accuse that particular motorcycle company of selling motorcycles at 12 times the cost of manufacturing, how does that compare to the general industry practice? Without knowing that, how can you call a particular market player a scammer? The devil can quote scripture to his advantage, and anyone can cherry-pick facts to support their point. By the simplistic theory that the cost of raw materials entirely determines what is and is not a scam, iTunes is a complete scam since each song costs NOTHING to "make" and send to the buyer. This ignores what it costs to actually develop a business model, operate the business, negotiate and license the songs, market the product to successfully compete with dozens of competitors, etc. The first and last items are biggies for any business, especially an innovative one, which anyone who has actually tried to develop and run a successful one will understand. The genius of Starbucks is not in the quality of its coffee. It's in gambling that tens of millions of Americans will radically change their consumption habits if coffee drinking is presented as a lifestyle. It's easy for someone who doesn't know jack [censored] about business to sit back and complain about how the coffee itself costs 10 cents a cup. The SCAM I'm talking about (and I think many others are also) is where the LIES of the seller X HIDES that the price offered by seller X is well in excess of its MARKET value, not some hypothetical "TRUE" value (which some people seem to be stuck on). That's why a $900 faulex is a scam, because the IDENTICAL item is available elsewhere on the open market for $50 and the dealer is DECEIVING you that it is some special rep worth $900. The $12,000 motorcycle or $3 coffee is not this type of scam because that price is, whether you personally think people are stupid to pay it or not, the FAIR MARKET PRICE as understood by the pool of informed buyers of that SPECIFIC product based on CORRECT information. If the seller doesn't have to LIE to his buyers about the fact HE is personally massively overcharging THEM, it's not this type of scam. People say that there is no market price for illegal items. That's [censored]. "Market" doesn't mean legal, it just means there's a pool of buyers. There's a market price for anything for which there is a significant market, legal or illegal. You may not have recourse if you get scammed buying an illegal good but that doesn't mean that there isn't a generally acceptable price for it. So yes, there are "honest" and "dishonest" sellers of even illegal goods. The illegality of the good and the ethicality of the business practices of the seller are not the same thing. One may reflect on the other, but they are not identical concepts.