kanerich

Generally I agree with you By-Tor, but I've got to go the other way on this one. Stuff like subdial spacing is a personal preference and if you can live with it that's fine (I have the Venus movement moonwatch for example, and I like it), but that doesn't mean people who don't find such discrepancies acceptable are being unreasonable -- with so many accurate chronos they don't have to settle for such things if they don't want to. And it's their money. Remember, the only rules in rep collecting are 1) buy what you like; 2) don't pay more than you should. Beyond that I think we should respect each other's preferences without being condescending or judgmental. Besides, IMO criticizing and demanding better, as long as you put your money where your mouth is as the members of this board are wont to do, helps move the ball. So I thank the freespending obsessive nitpickers, they are responsible for the current golden age of reps.

As long as we're dealing with fresh new topics, who has the best Sub? I mean really the best one.

Definitely a raging bargain and a great rep. I showed it to a friend last night and he could not believe that any watch of this quality could be had in hand for under $200!

There's the information I was looking for -- thanks very much! The rep bezel is not bad at all, but the outline of lower part of the little triangle around the pearl (black bezel version like mine) is very faint compared to the gen, and I can foresee the lines completely wearing off a lot sooner rather than later. I suppose I could just touch it up, but I thought it couldn't hurt to consider the various options. It has nothing to do with being happy with reps, but being commonsensical about the fact that rep pieces sometimes fall off or wear out, and the more sources for parts ID'd, the better.

I will say that it is interesting that smaller-volume dealers on this board regularly undercut the big-volume dealers in prices, offer free shipping and take care of the same after-purchase issues. I guess one does have to ask, shouldn't significantly larger volume of sales = decreased costs of scale = lower prices all around? And yet it's the big dealers who are raising prices and claiming poverty margins and falling dollar problems. Seems all a bit counterintuitive. Which is why I buy my watches from EL and River anyway.

Thanks for your advice. I own around twenty reps and have given away many more, and several gens as well. Both reps and gens make me happy. I have some reps modded by The Zigmeister and DaytonaT, most are dead stock, I like them all. If I can spend a few bucks and make a good rep better, I will certainly at least think about it. I'm not wealthy, but I'm not collecting cans to buy my reps either and a couple of hundred dollars isn't going to make any difference anyway. Look, I'm not asking for value judgments on what is the right amount to spend or whether it is objectively worth it to mod a rep. We've gone down that particular road on this board multiple times and all it leads to are pompous asses making "because I say so" statements. Many members own a half dozen Subs (or more) or a half dozen PO's, or some other multiple of the same or nearly identical watch. Some people spend almost as much money getting their MBW or Pannie "right" as the cost of a used gen. Some people own literally several hundred reps. I personally wouldn't do that but you know what? It doesn't mean squat what I would do in order for other people to enjoy their hobby, people should buy and do what THEY like. That's what a hobby is, it's for your enjoyment . . . there are hundreds of active members on this board, and other than the fact they like reps they have vastly different approaches to the hobby, financial resources, etc. So one size doesn't fit all. Pugwash and I think Ubiquitous have modded reps (GST Chrono, Seawolf) with gen dials. Weren't those already excellent reps by any standard? Why don't you shoot those members some PM's and lecture them about how they should quit this hobby and just go buy gens if little issues bother them? Since you obviously could educate Pugwash and Ubi. According to you people like Finepics and Palp are obviously just wasting everyone's time by making trivial things like date cyclopes, datewheels, A/Ring crystals and improving crowns so why don't you tell them to bugger off? Why don't you go tell Trusty and Josh they should stop improving rep quality since anyone who is not happy with the existing reps are clueless and shouldn't buy reps anyway? Somehow, I seriously doubt you are going to do any of these things. And there's a simple reason for that -- you don't have a leg to stand on. In any case if you read my initial post I say that buying the OEM is NOT something I'm particularly inclined to do -- all I'm asking is "I remember cwai saying something about oem bezels possibly fitting the rep, was there any followup on that." Why wouldn't people want to know, one way or another, considering what a popular rep this is?

Ofrei has both 42mm and 45mm, so size is not the problem. Either way if you read through cwai's original post, he doesn't actually say that it is possible to install the oem bezel on the 42mm model, he just says Ofrei sells it. I doubt that the oem is a bolt in, seeing as how you'd have to install the entire bezel (not just insert as with Rolex reps) and it seems highly doubtful to me that any mass-produced rep is that carefully copied. Sure would be nice though, as the bezel (although really good) is still probably a bit of a weak link, especially the pearl and the triangular part around it.

Thanks to the great write-up by By-tor (or Buy-More as he really should be called) I finally pulled the trigger on a PO after smugly sitting on the sidelines while generation after generation of new and improved versions came out. Well, I've got the Ultimate 45.5 mm PO from EL and I have to say, it is indeed a beauty. How much do I like it? Well I got it and the IWC Inge Chrono at the same time a couple of days ago. The Inge chrono is the watch I really wanted, I only got the PO as a kind of "eh, let's get that too" kind of deal. Well, sorry IWG fans but I prefer the PO, a couple of niggling details (the logo is a hair crooked, the diver extension a bit floppy) aside, it's a great watch. The IWC is great too and actually better put together than the PO, but somehow I just like the latter more. I was a little worried about the 45.5mm size but wears smaller than it is. Besides, considering I've got the 187 pulling off the PO is probably not my biggest problem. But all that's peripheral to my question. A few months back cwai pointed out that you can buy genuine PO bezels on ofrei. This is true enough but can you actually install them on reps? One member said he was doing it but then he never reposted so my guess is he didn't follow through. Does anybody know if it's possible to replace the bezel or bezel insert on a PO with a gen from ofrei? Not that I'm all that inclined to do it but it sure would be nice if I could!

I completely agree. The problem with illegal businesses is that you need a lot of capital, you can be shut down at any time, go to jail, face lawsuits . . . and most likely you're not to looking at a very lengthy career. It's not "easy" money. Go read Freakanomics sometime . . . the odds of making money, let alone getting rich, as a drug dealer is much lower than it is to go to school, study and get a decent job. There's a reason why most people who don't have to, don't get into non-white collar crime. People listen to too much gangsta rap these days. My friend decided to get into the bookie business -- after a couple of years he quit. He said the toughest thing is that he'd have times when he'd have to pay out $15,000 at once after getting killed in the Super Bowl or World Series and then he'd not be able to sleep at night, knowing a couple of more big losses like that and he'd be ruined. He made a nice little profit all in all but not really that much return consider he had to have tens of thousands in cash tied up. and said that it was just too stressful for him . . . he had to deal with about 100 emails and calls a day, people trying to weasel out of paying on losses, people threatening to call the police if he didn't pay them the same day (often the same people, not surprisingly -- clients are hypocrites like that, I'm sure watch sellers know what that's like). And he couldn't get [censored] because he needed their business, and it was illegal anyways. He had to carry a lot of cash and rub a lot of elbows. He thought it would be cool and make him a player, and it did, sort of. But it was a ton of work, more than he wanted to put in. It's a lot easier to be a consumer than it is to be a provider, someone bitching about what dealers make and acts like they are running some kind of sweet scam don't know the work it takes to run any successful operation. If Trusty and Andrew are making skilled businessmen money, that's because they ARE skilled businessmen. If they weren't in the rep biz they'd be successful doing something else. Just because they're nice guys don't forget to give them credit. Any idiot can't do what they do, only idiots think they can.

I don't mind . . . it's actually fairly depressing to wear a fake (modern I should stress) Rolex, it doesn't say anything flattering about the wearer to do so. I'm not sure better quality really changes anything. I own 4 rep Rolexes (YM, Sub, DJ, Exp I) as well as two gen Rolexes (DJ, Exp II) so I'm not knocking fake or gen Rolexes, I just feel like you when you wear a gen, you feel slightly like a poser who bought the most obvious watch, and if you wear a fake you feel strongly like a poser who bought the most obvious fake watch. A watch-loving man can live a long and happy life without having anything to do with either of them. When it comes to reps the IWC's, Pams and Breitlings, etc. are where it's at, and I can't say I mind at all. Those are much more interesting anyway.

The first real apartment I got, almost all the furnishings were from IKEA -- bed, tables, shelves, desk, chairs etc. It wasn't that hard, just terribly repetitive (I had blisters on my fingers so big I looked like I was wearing mittens) but in the time it took me to put all that crap together -- literally every weekend for about a month -- I could have spent doing manual labor for other people, and bought myself better furniture. Never again.

Actually, I'm not sure it matters who you buy it from since the jury-rigged movement will surely fail, and no dealer is going to replace a Daytona a couple of months down the road. However, in general you get what you pay for, sometimes less. I didn't realize Wo-mart had become a good bet again, with it being hit and miss I've just crossed it off the list entirely a while back.

I would recommend something tough, cheap and useful, like this watch which I use for hiking, camping and rafting. Obviously Casio, Citizen, Seiko etc. make lots of watches like this also, but I happen to own this one so I can recommend it. http://www.jomashop.com/nike-wa0018-001.html Take a rep along as well if that's something you want to do, but a trusty multifunction digital watch with times zones, thermometer, altimeter, barometer, alarms etc. is well worth having on one's person.

You don't understand the legal ramifications at all. That's just a fact and you know it to be true, so don't take it personally. Do both of you a favor and don't make uneducated guesses about someone else's important decisions.

Bad idea. Even if low risk, potential cost(high)/benefit(trivial) makes it a stupid risk. Very unfair to wife. Don't do it.

The reps that have pleasantly surprised me are probably the SS datejust which is extremely accurate compared to my TT gen (if you just want the most accurate Rolex rep and not a Sub or Daytona, the oyster case reps are always the way to go IMO), and the moonwatch. Yeah, the subdials are off but it's really nice quality. I also think that the Asian movement Pam 177 is a terrific watch for the price -- for $150 or less you get a rugged, water-resistant (or easy to make so) titanium watch. Hey, what more can you ask for?

I have to go with the Cartier Santos 100 TT . . . it looked awesome in pics and even though I'm not a TT guy or a dress watch guy, I just loved the look (DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!). I got it, hated the cheap strap and convinced myself that's why I didn't wear the watch. So I had Aaron Tan build me a nice gator strap for $200 - and now having put $500 into the watch I realized nope, it wasn't the strap. I always feel like I'm wearing a gold hubcap on my wrist, it's not that comfortable, and the dial isn't spot on either, although it's pretty good. But when the dial is so simple and the size of a dinner plate the fact that's not spot on seems more glaring. I really, really wish I hadn't sold my Double Eagle rep to get this . . . that was a MUCH better TT dress watch. Second would have to be the YM -- it's actually a more accurate rep than most Subs out of the box and there aren't nearly so many self-appointed "experts" trying to pick it apart, but I don't know, the "too frou-frou to be a sport watch but too plug-ugly to be a dress watch, and hard to read" thing has me scratching my head in terms of why anybody would want this watch over others, rep or gen . . .

Yeah, I think the standard under the DMCA and other related IP laws in the US is that the middleman website traffics substantially in non-infringing transactions and is diligent to remove any potentially infringing materials, not that fake stuff is available at all. Under that fairly loose standard, prosecuting ebay is tough unless it blows off requests to remove auctions blatantly of counterfeit goods.

What I find curious are people who make statements that are inapropos of anything that has been said . . . I did not see a single post here that suggested that collecting reps was not fun or rewarding, or that reps weren't cool to own. At the most "extreme" it was suggested that reps are probably going to have more problems than gens, and that the enjoyment one can expect from rep collecting depends on one's expectations. Wow, what a rep hater. What a crazy, destructive attitude. Get these fire-breathing rep liberals off my board, Rush! It's my way or the highway. Love it or leave it baby! U-S-A! R-E-P! A variety of opinions about rep collecting and its merits doesn't detract from this board. People whose idea of discourse is "I don't like what you have to say, so you should shut up or leave this board" do. You want to talk about unconstructive, THAT's unconstructive.

Seems like I am always the guy supporting tvt on the fake watch boards. He is right. Reps are fun and neat for a variety of reasons, but gen expectations of QC or reliability are probably not among them. Reps are like kit cars -- they're a lot of fun and provide a lot of bang for the buck if that's the sort of thing you're into, but anyone who demands the reliability of a Honda or Toyota absolutely shouldn't bother, and anyone who expects the same will be at least slightly disappointed. I am always amused by the "yeah well even Rolexes and Mercedes break down so it's all the same" anecdotal assertions. Would anybody bet $10,000 that given any random sampling of out-of-the-box 100 Rolexes and 100 "ETA" Rolex reps that the gens will have more cosmetic issues or be less reliable? Not even the dealers on this board would take that bet. On the other hand I'm not a wealthy man but I would take the opposite bet in a heartbeat. Also, here's the thing about the "genuine" ETA movements in reps -- it's not always clear what you're getting. It has been documented that dealers sometimes inaccurately claim Chinese ETA copies as "ETA." A reputable dealer on this board recently offered "ETA Valjoux 7750" reps with 17 jewel movements, which have not been manufactured by ETA proper since the 1980's, so even if they are genuine, who knows where they came from! I also (as usual) agree with bytor. The additional issue with reps is not that the movements are unreliable, it's the cosmetic bits that can have problems and are not easily replaceable. I've said this about a hundred times, but the "ETA = no problems" crowd always blow off a salient point. You don't wear a movement, you wear a watch, and a watch with a stripped crown that won't screw down, broken crystal or missing helium valve isn't much good no matter how soundly the movement runs. I'm not saying this sort of problem occurs anywhere near often, but it occurs enough that people should be honest about it. This is a rep enthusiasts' website, not a blind rep shiller's website. Or so I would hope. But I'm not helping mrnixon at all. I own about 20 reps including 6 PAM's, which I've bought over the past three years. I've had 2 movement problems (Asian 7750, Asian Venus), 5 cosmetic problems (Sub rep had misaligned hand that scored the dial, "9" fell off Explorer I rep, crowns on YM and 183 stripped and wouldn't screw down, paint peeled off inner bezel of Navitimer rep). All were fixable with varying degrees of irritation and cost, except the Navi. The crown stripping problem with 183's seem endemic to that model so I would warn you on that, but otherwise the PAMs I've bought (005, 187, 118, 177, 196, 183) have been solid.

Big watches are just a fad? Damn, FORGET IT THEN!! There is no way in HELL I'm paying $228 for anything that I won't own and use for my entire lifetime!

Yes, this is why the "daily beater" concept is so profitable for watch companies. So many wannabe James Bonds and Indiana Joneses in the world.

The concept of the moderately priced (between rep and higher end gen) do-it-all tool watch that one wears most of the time is an attractive one. Unfortunately I would guess that many of us are just too far down the rep and gen road and already have too many watches crying out for wrist time to really be able to do justice to the concept. In any case IMO there is no right price for daily beaters because the "daily beater" itself, once you get past a few bucks for a Casio, is just another lifestyle luxury item. For, most of us desk jockey types the specific need for a daily "beater" is highly overrated. What exactly is going to happen to me in the process of going to work, working, and coming home from work that I have to select a trusty, bulletproof companion watch as if I am James Bond or Indiana Jones?

How often do we need to go over this topic anyway? It's always "who has the best Sub" and "why isn't it guaranteed water-resistant." And the answer is always "Rolex" and "because dealers don't represent anything they don't have to." And who are these people who live in constant fear of suddenly going swimming, such that they can't possibly plan around it? "I'm worried that I will be wearing my rep and spontaneously a group swim will break out, and I'll have no recourse other than taking a chance on the watch or admitting the truth and I refuse to do either." Is this really such a likely or major concern? And maybe you should think about what it is you're trying to prove by wearing a rep ALL THE TIME? I realize that it would be nice if reps were water-resistant. Actually, many are. But I don't understand this silly rationale "I might be forced to swim with people at any time" for why they should be so. Besides, gen owners don't wear their gens to swim, climb rocks, whatever -- regardless of water-resistance, for most people it makes only good sense not to use $4,000 watches as daily beaters. So why couldn't you explain you don't want to swim wearing it? It's actually a dead giveaway your watch is fake when you don't use common sense; last summer I was in Guam with my wife when I spotted some Japanese kid (couldn't have been more than 20) on the beach wearing a "Paul Newman Daytona." Yeah, young kid vacationing at the entirely mediocre Guam Marriott wearing a PN Daytona while snorkling . . . that's not completely ludicrous or anything.

1) gens are better made and more reliable on the average than reps, anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. 2) reps are reliable enough on the average to be satisfactory, anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. This is how I feel, unless you actually feel that 1 or 2 have no truth or veracity to them at all I am not inclined to argue the points all that passionately. However, I do feel that the "reps just as good as gen" proponents usually fall back to the "I am confident I am right IF you have the watch immediately serviced and IF you buy a certain movement and IF it is a watch with a ready supply of spare parts and IF you know a thing or two about watch maintenance and repair, otherwise all bets are off and you shouldn't be buying reps in the first place" which to me doesn't support the general proposition at all. It's like drafting a contract with so many escape clauses and conditions that at the end of the day you haven't agreed to anything.