crystalcranium

Rob, The watch and movement that seems to confuse the most is the Franck Mueller with the advertised "same spec as genuine" 2892 movement. There is a photo of a movement in this watch on a dealer website that is clearly hallmarked with the ETA stamp. Now, that's only one photo of the movement in one watch, but wouldn't that be the gold standatd by which genuine movements are judged. Or are the cloners cloning hallmarks too?

A 2892-A2 movement alone will cost you around $250 USD retail. A 2892 or 2895 (Sec at 6) watch from Hamilton or Raymond Weil will go for $500-$1000. As Pugwash said, it's hard to know. Some will argue the point is moot. The copies of this movement are very good and you will get an excellent and servicable movement if you purchase the Seagull clone. But it would be nice to know what you are getting.

eddhead, just noticed your avitar caption. Love the Honeymooners too. I think the reply is "...and I'm calling Bellevue 'cause you're nuts!!!"

And I agree wholeheartedly with your premise here. What are we to do? Exactly this. If we don't talk about this and self police as best we can the small community of dealers and buyers who come here for information and guidance, then there is no limit to the potential for rip off. I think it's entirely valid to nip these trends in the bud and say "Whoa!! This steps over the line" Kudos for having the guts to ruffle some feathers here and say that a few things stink in this.

I admit to not reading every post in this thread so forgive me if my thoughts are just a re-hashing of some expressed views. I whole heartedly agree that the marketing of something built to look and perform like an ETA by Seagull is not an ETA. The "lemania' issue has always bothered me. But what are we to do? This is an illegal trade. Most of the dealers who have recieved our blessing here are light years more honest and trustworthy than bestswissreplicas.com or goreplicas.com who gleefully take $900 for a stainless ETA submariner. I agree, these "lies" are false representations, not creative advertising, but among us theives, counterfeiters, buyers et al, they are pretty small. A newbie who gets "ripped off" because he thinks he has a genuine ETA 2892-A2 for $275 has in fact been sold a false bill of goods but he's in far better shape than the guy who paid $900 for an ETA 2836 sub. There's no Better Business Bureau to go to here. This kind of Q and A will help to self regulate the trade. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the more seasoned sellers here clean up their act at least in the short run, in resopnse to this discussion. And about the "Lemania" movements, a question for our dealers here. What's so wrong with calling this movement what it is? The Venus 175 is as iconic as any classic movement. The casual collector isn't going to know a Lemania, from a Venus from a whatever. Why not impress the knowlegeable with the fact that this is a fine copy of a very desired movement with a long history????

Randy Jackson wears a Tiret. He has been soptted by the paparazzi sporting 2-3 different styles of this brand and they have been plastered all over the pages of IW magazine. Here's a link to a pdf doc of the page showing the watch http://www.watchagora.com/auction/media/IW...June%202006.pdf

The VAST majority of counterfeit watches produced in china are cheap replicas of Rolex watches. The fact that Rolex doesn't give a damn about the production of these watches is evidenced by the street vendors around the corner from Rolex USA's corporate headquarters in New York selling fakes out in the open. These watches are produced in the hundred of thousands...if not millions, and are percieved as a flattering annoyance by the big R. I don think other companies like PP and AP and GP give a damn about the medocre quality replicas produced in small numbers either. The watches we talk about here are pretty rarified air. None of these watches are going to be mistaken for a forgery...any jewelry store that gets taken because they don't open the case and see the very obvious differences is run by fools, but they are, some of them, very good...and very small in number. No one is going to start pounding the drum loudly to shut down the counterfeit business and trade because 10,000 Tag link Chronos have shown up in the world and they are very, very good fakes. The watch world will not be the cause of the big changes in IP violation policy in the coming years...but they will probably be swept up in it. The olympics, China's ever increasing desire to be a legitimate world economic superpower, cheaper and better scanning technologies..etc all will contribute to the eventual difficulties we'll see in obtaining fake watches...but don't fool yourself that your "Perfectmariner" is the catylist. A thread like this shows up once every 3 months here. I think the genesis is that we can't believe some of the things we get away with. Enjoy and relax

I think the MBW epitomizes the exact opposite of this ideal. Out of the box, it is a very medeocre replica. It probably does win the award for most modifiable but it is WAY down on the list of "perfects" out of the box.

It's just the inevitable warm up to when there will be NO ETA versions available. This is going to be part of the growing process. We are going to see more and more ETAlike movements in the coming months and years.

I'm interested. What exactly do they mean by "all operations are performed by Swiss Trained Technicians"???? Does theat mean the technicians are made in China and trained in Switzerland or are they made and trained in China and just sent off to Switzerland for final polishing and packaging????? Or are these Chinese born technicians just very good copies of Swiss technicians made by Seagull?

I got the same head's up from josh today. I'm not sure this is an ETA copy. It looks like an asian 21j bumped up to 28,800 bph.

Nav GMT World white dial Virtually a perfect rep as far as I can see with the only issue being a misalignment of the outer bezel slide rule tic marks. Other than that, this is spot on. The dial print and font are perfect. The movement and interior case are decorated. OR Nav TT black dial stick markers. The classic TT Nav in By-Tor's review There's about a $60 difference with the GMT priced at about $330.

Yeah, I think this one wants to be an Accutron Gemini 26C04 Only, it's not as nice.

Pics????? Lots of dealers selling Rolex Explorer 1s. It being a reped Rolex, they're are countless versions.

The movement is not the same as the original its the "same spec as genuine". It's not even an ETA. It's a Seagul copy of the ETA 2892-A2. There was a thread a while back about nomenclature in how dealers describe their replica movements and this particular movement and it's description is one of the biggest offenders.

I agree, most Ti reps look and feel grainy. I don't know what the big deal is about titanium watches anyway. The whole concept of weight saving in watches seems a bit silly. When I hand over my 220gm SMP Chrono to someone who wants to look at it closely, the usual reaction is a faux dropping of their hand to the floor with an exclaimation of "Wow, is this heavy enough for you? don't you get tired wearing this all day?" I usually say "Do you get tired of wearing those pound and a half shoes on each foot all day long?" I no more notice the weight of the watch I'm wearing as a burden than I do the 5 pounds of clothes I'm wearing. When I pick up a lightweight titanium watch, my reaction is almost invaribly, "This thing feels light and cheap". I like a heavy watch. It suggests ruggedness and quality.

Pug is correct. When I proposed this discussion thread, the original question was which replica available today was the most accurate in a side by side comparison with the genuine, not which is your favorite, or the most modifiable, or the best value, or the latest to come out that's very close....etc..but the best copy of a genuine on a point by point comparison. Dispite lots of enthusiasm and excitement about the latest "hors de jour" I agree with the general consensus that the best of the PO replicas, the Tag Heuer Link Chrono and the IWC's proposed come as close to the real deal as any reps out there. Lots of suggestions in this thread have come out of an emotional place as opposed to an objective point by point evaluation of the state of the rep art as it exists today.

How many of these ETA movement dependant small watch assembly companies, (who do frankly what I would love to do, produce watches with low frills and proven movements to bring good quality mechanicals to the masses.....oh yeah...Seiko already did that...) are going to be around once ETA movements are only going to go into Swatch company watches? I agree they are probably on a par with Tissot, Hamilton, Swiss Army, Oris, Accutron et al who can put an ETA mechanical out there for between $300-$1000. Better to stick with a proven name and warranty.

...and as we all know, once that flaw is identified, ....it's all we can see!!

Welcome back Neil. The infection clearing up has also seemed to have cleared up some of your legendary crankiness! Please see if you can get it back. I don't know if I can stomach a 'kinder and gentler version " of TTK BTW, the emails are amazing. I'm surprised thay didn't include instructions for how high you were to jump. $25-$30 for a WU transfer for me to China. Moneybookers continues to be a major pain, an attempt to upload funds actually freezing my ATM card and account access for a day. Would you take a personal check! (just kidding!!!)

No I thought even the latest editions had mimicked PVD. I can't see our rep manufacturers leading the way on this technology in the watch industry. Until Seiko, Citizen and Bulova start mass producing PVD Gold watches, we're not going to see it in replicas. It might just be a technology that doesn't make sense from an economic standpoint at a cheap price point. A gold plated Seiko at $225 that gives it's wearer wonderful performance but has built in obsolescence in a fading plating is probably going to get replaced after 5 years. I'm sure deep down in a cost/effectiveness study at Seiko et al is the fact that a gold plating that lasts long enough for the wearer to fall in love with the performance is ideal for resale. If it fades too soon, you don't get a devotee. if it never fades, you never sell the buyer a second watch. Unless that buyer is me. Then I buy up another, and another, and another..... I once had a commission for a landscaping company to build dovetailed redwood flowerboxes for a homeowner having a garden renovation done. I was determined to make bulletproof flowerboxes that would last forever. I drove stainless timber screws vertically through the intersecting corners and their interlocking joinery, used polyurethane glue, coated the inside and outside with 5 coats of marine spar varnish, made multiple sets of replaceable bottoms with drainage and even coated the inside of the mounting holes with varnish to prevent potential rot. The partner in the landscaping business couldn't have been more un-impressed. "Don't you want to get paid to replace these things in 3-4 years?. What kind of a business man are you?" Lousy I guess.

Well, maybe we can start a regular service along with Joe to move our plated reps into the next generation

Some borrowed shots As I stated, I can't see much difference between "golded" and the "real stuff" so I'd rather invest in something that's going to last.

I don't get why this hasn't created a bigger stir in the jewelry and watch world....and here for that matter. I love gold watches but have been hesitant to buy them because of the unreliability of gold plate which is notorious in reps but no guarantee in genuines either. I have a 15 year old Bulova that still looks like solid gold and several gold Seiko's that looked like tarnished brass after a couple of years. PVD golding has been used on indwelling medical prosthetic devices for its' wear characteristics for years and has been used in the plumbing industry to mimic gold on fixtures. It is not a particularily expensive technology. The Tissot I purchased lists for only $30-$50 more than the stainless version of the same watch. I have a long list of gold reps that I'd start buying immediately if they were PVD golded.

Although they were a bit evasive, the "gold" coating on my new genuine PRS 200 Diver Chrono is PVD TiNi which will keep its' gold color for the lifetime of the watch. It will exhibit 10 times the wear capicity of a comparably thick gold electroplating. The PVD coating is 10 microns of TiNi which would translate to 100 microns of gold plate in wear characteristics. I'm not sure why they were evasive about giving me an answer. Perhaps this is a process they are trying to keep quiet. Maybe they believe keeping the public thinking the watch contains actual gold in the plating has some sort of selling inertia. Whatever the thinking, I wish and hope the Chinese have a handle on this coating technology and start plating our gold reps in TiNi. As I've stated before, I'd rather have a 50 year plating that looks 95% like real gold than a 100% gold plating that wears off 50% in a year or two of use and looks 0% like a gold watch.