babola

As deniz said, no luck my friend. Hublot maker is also known as notoriously stubborn when it comes to sale of spares in particular...even if something's wrong with the watch they sold let alone spare parts.

I'd say so. Due to its slightly stubbier lugs it's a tad closer for pre-V build than the current 219 case from Hublot maker, for example. cheers, b

Hmm, if you're ready to go that distance why not just scrapping the lume from the existing disc and apply a thinner layer, I'd most likely do that if I were you. That would create the same or similar thickness of the lume used on the 111J disc. If the Noob factory used Superluminova, it would have been perfect, even if applied in a thin layer. If you're after a 111J rep get a new 111J, separate the dial discs, scrap the existing mediocre lume from the base disc, apply the Superluminova lume again, do the same on the hands - and that should do. I wouldn't touch the 177L dial though, even with thick lume layer, it's great as is Or simply send it to one of the modders/lumers. cheers, b

A little late now for that, sorry. I plan to do this for a friend of mine again in few weeks, will take the measurements then. cheers, b

Still no pin rubber sleeve? thanks, b

Looking good mate...the whole 'thing' feels and looks like a genuine at least from your photos

Well brother W...if you want to split hairs all the 44mm PR models also come with 2.5mm xtals ...

Dr...yup, the cutouts are somewhat larger on 111J and smaller on 177L, the gen is in-between the two. My photo of the 111J above exaggerates the cutout due to lighting, it's actually much more faint. Bezels on 111J and 177L are of the similar height, the 'ring' on the base of the 177L bezel is somewhat higher, though. cheers, b

Thanks guys...the whole thing took a little longer than anticipated as I was taking photos and writing at the same time while assembling "the b'stard" 111J. I manages to source these two while they were offered at $180 each from one of the non-cartel dealers, plus combined shipping it ended up being less than $400 total, so I'm not complaining. That plus the fact the Ti case is already part of another project and other parts re-sold, I'm fine. R mate, both xtals are the same or extremely similar dimensions, thickness and width as per gen specs. Both have single-side AR (on the inside). The 111J xtal comes with suboptimal A/R I must admit....standard Pam rep A/R, that's all really. The 177L A/R is colorless and almost perfect. cheers, b

“How to build a sandwich dial super-rep”...or why do I believe 111J is such a great 'modding base' and that 177L ain't all it's cracked up to be... If you happen to find the above statement hard to believe or even shocking, keep reading. There are many totally unexpected and interesting findings I came across while dissecting the two reps. My idea was to create something of a cheapest possible 111 super-rep while using only the best rep parts available and combined from the two watches 111J and 177L. Just as a preamble so I don't get misunderstood - I still agree with majority and stand behind my initial observations of these two great reps, 111J and 177L. For the money, you will hardly find better value on any decent mass produced 44mm sandwich dial rep these days, with 177L being one of those rare reps that doesn't require almost any modding for full enjoyment for the most. Just a note that the review contains raw, quick and un-modified photos, my aim wasn't to create a nice writeup with flash photos, but technical overview with the info that would preferably cover wide range of audience. Onto the review with photos now... Overall look and feel Here are the two watches side by side, 111J on the left, 177L on the right: Not much to see from this angle, except the mistiness of a 111J glass, as well as "thinner" appearance of a top sandwich layer on 177L. I must admit the 177L on the first glance has more gen-ish feel, mainly due to its super-clear sapphire and super-lumed dial and hands...that's if you don't start digging deeper and look for details Hublot rep factory is well known as a maker that produces a nice looking Pam reps but when it comes to 'correct' fit and dimensions, they're still behind Noob maker IMO. I will explain my reasoning behind this further down. Case sets and their parts Both 111 and 177 casesets are top notch, very gen-like. They both feature G-M series case shapes with slightly elongated and steeper flat-top lugs. Both of them come with gen-ish looking very faint cutout between the lugs (more of a curvature than cut-out). Bezels are spot-on on both IMO, as well as case edges which bevel steeper and more dramatic than any other aftermarket rep cases available these days. Needless to say, bot cases feature post-J series hex tube which only accepts new style crowns without the shoulder. Lugs on the 111 are just a hair thicker but hard to notice by the naked eye, for sure. This however makes it a good candidate for projects covering very wide range of models from pre-A to the very last M-series, with hex tube or the round one regardless. It should even fit the bill for a pre-V build with just a little mod at the very edges of the lugs. Love the case guys, I really do. Photo below shows 177 on top of the 111. Same lug-to-lug length, very similar almost identical lug shape. "Cutouts" between the lugs. Very minimal on the 177L, and slightly longer and rounder on 111J. Neither is the same as gen, as the area between the lugs on gen is somewhat in-between these two. I owned a gen 111H and that's how I remember it. CG/lever assembly on the 111J is pretty much spot on, rubber pin jacket, pin, CG shape and size etc: Side by side...111J then 177L: Even from the photos above you can see some minor differences issues with the 177 CG. The rectangular cavity for the crown is smaller, or shallower. IMO, this is the main reason why the crown on this rep is pushed closer to the case, than on 111J. The lever tip pin 177 CG is chunkier than it should be, and the lever doesn't come with the rubber shim/jacket. Lever on mine was floppy ;( and the lever area around the roller looks like it's been run over by a truck. Also, the pin seems to be a non-removable type...at least I was unable to push it out to install my custom made rubber shim...no luck, the standard method I'm using failed me on this CG so left it as is for now. The pin seems to be force pushed, and there aren't any visible serrations on the bottom (thin) side of the pin. The lever tip (the far end tip on which you use your fingernail) is slightly more 'correct' on the 111J, as well. This is what I meant by smaller cavity on 177. Outer edges on both CGs are lined up on these two photos, notice how much shorter the feet are on 177: Side-by-side - the CG cavity is just a tad larger on 111 CG, while on 177 is smaller when compared with the gen CG: The crowns...and now the first issue I came across. The crown on the 111J is spot on, correct in shape, fit and manufacture, hex spring part assembly. However the crown on 177 is all over the place. The shape of the neck and spring assembly isn't anything I've seen so far, either on gen or rep Panerai crown. You can see from the photo below how much it actually differs from the 111J crown on the left. Also the spring assembly isn't hex shaped but round, so be EXTRA careful when scr3wing the stem on it, otherwise you might end up with two pieces in your hand. But the biggest offender on 177 crown is that the body of the neck isn't straight but ends up with the conical outward bevel at the base, see my scribbling below in red. What this means is that the crown in this configuration will NEVER sit properly and tight against the crown tube, unless more o-rings are added inside the crown. The crown simply creating metal-to-metal friction against the mouth of the crown tube, this is why most of us 177L rep owners feel such a strong resistance when closing the CG lever. (Sorry, I forgot to remove the o-ring seal from the 177 crown to illustrate this better) Many have commented how the 177 crown is thicker than gen, well the 111J crown width measures 1.97mm, and the 177L crown measures 1.96mm...interesting isn't it? It's funny how the lack of correct teeth bevel on the 177 crown gives that false impression and optical illusion that's wider, instead it's the thinner one amongst the two. Casebacks... great on both, however slightly flatter on 177. The glass on 177 CB is definitely mineral, but I'm unsure about the 111J CB, both the basic fingernail knock test and water beading test are Sapphire positive, but I'm not 100% sure, especially as it wasn't specified in product description by the dealers and factories. The 111J CB also comes with deeper and wider engraving than 177 which is faint and shallow. Again 111J is closer to gen, in this respect. The infamous Swiss Made on 111J CB...Noob factory really got some fine detail right. The 177 CB from Hublot maker lacks this little detail...where's Eddie Lee when you need him ) LOL! Lug screws...no contest - 177 wins this one by a mile! The Ti lug screws on this rep are as gen as any lug screws will ever be IMO, great definition, perfect threading, flat tips on threaded part, polished top and bottom. 111J are just a garden variety cheap looking & too short lug screws, nothing to write home about. 177 screws on the left: 177 screws on the top: The crystal and dial lume...again 177 wins hands down. The xtal is super bright and clear, the clearest one I ever owned, including EL/Honpo old-school ones, except maybe for the BigC sapphire. The AR although very faint and invisible is very correct and on par with the AR on my PAM288 Rad rep. The lume is magnificent, Superluminova and the correct color mix...glows over night and almost into the morning...speechless! Th price of the 177 rep simply pays for the lume and xtal alone, all other bits are bonus On the other hand the 111J xtal is slightly mistier with strong purple/blue AR hue...standard Pam rep glass, nothing special. 177 on the left: No comment...really. The movement...well, are some going to be surprised by the findings I came across Not only the regulator is shaped as a needle, as everybody knows by now, but the movement that comes inside 177L isn't high-beat A6497-2 21.6Kbph, but the slower A6497-1 18kbph!!! So it appears the Hublot rep factory and the dealers have been distributing little white lies once again, nothing new but come on - it's not on! They simply went for the cheapest, nastiest and crudest A6497-1 this time. Noob maker stuck to their end of the deal and provided quite nice looking (and of very precise beat rate if I may add) high-beat manual movement, correct dagger shaped regulator, engraved OP text, very nice CDG finish etc. Neither mov't is by its appearance even close to gen, so best not to waste much time on this. 177L: 111J: So all in all both great reps, but lacking that higher-end finesse. Building a 111 super-rep; babola's 111J - 'The Bastard' So I've decided to combine the best available parts of both reps into a one very nice and gen looking 111 sandwich dial Pam rep. The Crystals...this is a no-brainer, it had to be the one from 177L. See them below side-to-side. 111J Sapphire on the left, notice the darker edge: Now xtals reversed - 177L on the left: Refractions and clarity...177L on the left: The Dials...Well this is an interesting one, as the 'best' dial is a combination of the parts from 111 and 177. The 111J dial comes with correct semi-matte texture, and spot-on dial text color, ivory/cream. The 177L on the other hand is slightly shinier in finish with dial text more of a beige-gray. The font is also thinner on 177L. We all know how good is the Superluminova lume on 177, so I won't go into much discussion here. It's simply perfect, both the glow and lume color. Here are the two dials side-by-side, 111J on the left. Notice how different the dial text is: 111J dial, perfect L-SM-L text, matte texture: 177L dial, also perfect L-SM-L, slightly shinier texture: Again, to see the diffs in dial texture...111J dial at the bottom: 177 dial at the top: Another interesting finding was that both dial come with IDENTICAL cutouts for markers and numerals...quite weird, but very true On the next photo I overlaid the 111J dial on top of the 177L dial. Can you see the bottom dial? This time angled: Now I swapped the dials, 177L on the top: And under angle...(sorry the bottom 111J dial slipped down my fingers a little this time) Little Hero....run for cover!!! While doing the dial swap, I've also debunked the myth behind the supposedly "thinner" top dial plate on the 177L. Well, while the top plate on 177 is thinner for a minuscule amount compared to the plate on 111J (0.02mm), the reason for the thin dial appearance is completely different. Here's the photo showing the profile of both top plates, side-by-side: The reason actually lies in super thick and raised application of lume on the 177L base plate. It is so thick that it raises inside the cutouts, making the marker and numeral cutouts looking 'flat'. Let's see this in more detail. 177L Dial Hang on what's this...a dial retaining screw on the side of the movement?!?! Hmm, I heard 2006 called and wants its rep mov't back! Remember the infamous Chiss or Swinesse A6497-1 mov't guys? Well, it's making a comeback... Over engineered polished base plate, nice touch for sure, but ...why? Check the lume application. Definitely non genuine-like, as gen base dials have impressed cavities where lume is applied almost flush with the plate surface. It doesn't come as a surprise, as I'm yet to see a rep 44mm sandwich Luminor dial with this done correctly. Also, the whole bottom plate area is adhesive. Check it out again: 111J Dial When it comes to lume on 111J it's all standard stuff, nothing special to write about. Black base plate, thin (very thin) lume application. So...I've decided to combine the top dial plate of the 111J with the bottom plate of the 117, for the reasons mentioned and well documented above. The dials separate well, and if you've done this before it's a doddle. Word of warning regarding the top dial plate of the 111J. It comes with 4 pins that insert inside the bottom lumed plate. These pins are incompatible with the 177 bottom plate, so need to be cut off for the correct fit. Use the high quality wire cutters for this job. It's important you cut the pins as close to the dial as possible: So all in all...here are the pros and cons of both 11J and 177L summarized: 177L Pros: - sapphire xtal with great A/R - bottom (base) plate and hands lumed in Superluminova with correct color - great case set - great lug bars Cons: - top dial plate slightly shinier in finish, dial text beige-gray color - the movement - the greatest flop on this watch - unfinished and incorrect crown neck - lack of correct crown teeth bevel - CG with floppy lever, lever pin non-removable, lever of slightly incorrect shape - slightly thinner case back, mineral glass CB insert, shallow and faint engraving...but only a tad 111J Pros: - top dial plate, great texture and correct dial text color - case set - crown and CG as per gen specs - correct case back thickness, good quality engraving around the CB rim - possible Sapphire xtal on the caseback - the movement Cons: - faint lume on the base plate - almost non-existent hands lume - stock standard sapphire xtal with blue/purplish hue The resulting build - 111J 'The Bastard': - case set from 111J - sapphire xtal from 177L - top dial plate from 111J - bottom dial plate from 177L - hands from 177L - mov't from 111J - CG pin flattened and polished - Cannon pin flattened and polished - gen strap Few quick photos: Very genuine looking, if I may say so That's all from me for now folks...hope some of you got at least something out of this extra-long post. I'm always open to questions, suggestions and criticism, so don't hesitate, please Time to hit the sack now...until next time - goodnight! babola

Unfortunately it's the other way around, the 162 is the worst replicated of all 6 Daylight models based on A7753. Go for 236/250 or 196 if you're after replication that's close to 1:1.

Blimey...and I only asked a single question Thanks mate. Mine is still 'arriving' but what many aspects of this rep you described above are something I noticed as well...but you know how it goes if you post about it many 'quick-shooters' here and elsewhere will call crap all over you, so I reserve those for my real-life reviews. Apart from Hublots and some APs, the Hublot factory never really created a very close watch case when it comes to other watch brands, indeed. Their Breitling SAs are also very close, but when you start comparing an Avenger Skylands, BCEs and many others they churned out including their ultimate PAM reps they just don't cut it in that respect, IMO. Many have sh@t on the Noob factory 111J S/S in general already, but IMO that watch even with all the modding required to get it there comes with a very good bones, and I'm pretty sure much closer case than the 177L. I'll be able to tell more and with more certainty once both of my 111 and 177 arrive for dissection. What 111J lacks is a decent quality xtal, the 177L comes by default with. Stay well mate and enjoy this festive season with your family and friends Merry Xmas! b

What's your verdict on the dial txt color accuracy, Pete? Too grayish-white for a sandwich dial Luminor do you think?

082/500. There will be duplicates, though. They way passed the 500 production mark by now.

If you're after an early 24 Sub model with polished bezel and no hash marks - not great. Also, cartel 24 in general comes with its own issues. The crown position is correct, though.

Panerai never used rigid, non-SL crowns. The're all spring loaded.

Unfortunately all of his 24/25 models have the same flaw with the crown position. Including misshapen lugs the low sitting crown has been one of my biggest pet peeves of his latest Subs, so gave them a pass. The movement and dial sit almost a full 1mm lower inside the case when compared to a gen 24/25. Not sure why exactly but my guess is his case maker had a bit of a challenge with the bezel construct. Remember both of his 24 and 25 models were delayed for few months because of incorrect teeth count as well as some case construction challenges. It is likely that his 24/25 xtals are also thicker than the gen ones (it's only 2.5mm thick on the gen, so thinner than xtal on historics/manuals)...who really knows the real reason...

It is 5218-207/A Slytech Daylight...even in gen form very fake-ish looking. Only a handful made, very collectible.

Someone suggested it shot up to $1300, actually. IMO the only bits worth salvaging from his watches would be the the mov't with slightly nicer and closer to gen finish, as well as the caseback and CG with non-roller lever. And that CG still requires modding and extra work to fit most of the cases. I see he dropped a price for his CG to $65 now, if what Supremej stated in his 112 post is anything to go by...only few weeks ago he was asking ~$220

Not by much but the gap was there, clearly visible from one of the photos. I'm sure that if you ask the OP nicely he should be able to send you a pic or two IMO that was an anomaly as 99% of the 177L QC photos I've seen so far have the crown pushed tight to the case.

I guess you can call me a clairvoyant as I could 'sense' that my mate Pete will come up with this kind of response. OP posted his QC photos for a short while before removing them ...

R mate, even with all the small issues you mentioned it's a sweet piece indeed. At least the crown on yours isn't squeezed to the side of the case like most of the other 117L reps I've seen I've seen photos of so far. Very nice...

Have you tried using the original gasket instead the one you got supplied with the new xtal? As others have said above, it's sitting a bit high indeed. cheers, b

I believe the CG is shorter in radius, but that's just me mate and you know how I get sometimes . The problem with shortening the lever is that the roller at the tip would present a little challenge to most. To make it thinner you'll have to remove it from the axle and mount it on some kind of rotary tool to shave some extra metal off and get the right evenness of finish. There are however some rollers that come on levers from Noob factory that are simply stuck, i.e. they don't revolve at all. Thinning this type of roller would be much easier, of course. I've also just seen the photos only so far, as everyone else at this stage. So these are just speculations and educated guesses that should be taken with a grain of salt. What we need is a proper review to be able to state this with greater certainty. So far the photos show thinner top plate but that coul dbe also due to thickness of the lumed numerals and indices on the bottom plate, especially if they're slightly raised in the middle like on the sausage lumed dials. Just in closing, even with all these potential flaws and inaccuracies these reps represent a great bang for buck, and I agree with most of the folk here on that. We only have to go back 3-4 years ago when 111H from Eddie Lee would have set you back $359, or slightly less if you were one of his returning customers. And this "the best 111H version, sunshine" (in EL's own words ) would come with incorrect dial cutouts and dial text, almost no lume at all, recessed cannon pin, dinky slim crown, incorrect CG, incorrect caseback with fixed H0035 serial, blue in your face A/R...the list goes on. The only saving grace was the ETA6497 mov't, but with very rough finish. Guys - Buy it, wear it, mod it and enjoy it...

Different makers, mate. I don't believe 111 is much better than 177 as you pointed out, as there are different flaws on each. 111 lacks good dial lume and better A/R, but comes with the CG of a slightly larger radius closer to gen, as a result the crown sits at the correct distance from the case. Some would argue that the mov't on the 111 is also slightly closer to the gen look and feel. On the other hand the 177 seem to lack the depth of the top 'sandwich' plate (in lieu of a proper review) but comes with gen-like lume and gen-like A/R. The CG could be better but than again, this is a ~$240 watch, just like the 111J. I don't think we should be this critical as these are by far the nicest and closest 111/177 sandwich dial Pam reps ever made in GZ. We just need to remember that 'Little Hero' was only recently asking $220 for his CG alone! And that CG needed some work on it to make it fit properly as well as no rubber lever pin insert. I'll most likely get both and combine/swap some pieces between them. The 111J dial is crying for a nice re-lume job though. cheers, b