tode1640

So what you are saying is that it is obvious that it is a rep just because the. seller is stupid - no feedback, description plagiarised from rep sites etc.? If he had used an account with feedback, put it in a box and wrote his own description - would it have been impossible to call? Sheesh, that is scary! This caught my eye because I have the noob version of this. A lovely watch, and it does look identical to these pictures. However, I had always assumed that someone who really knew their PAMs could tell it wasn't gen at a glance! All in all a good reason to never buy a watch from eBay! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not doubting you, but I'm intrigued to know why you guys are so sure this is a rep. Other than the lack of feedback, it looks pretty good to my uneducated eye! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have been told that in some countries(not necessarily the US), Rolex ADs provide a free "service" of routinely authenticating all watches they get their hands on. Then, if they think it is fake, they send it to Rolex to investigate. If you wanted it back then you would be dealing with Rolex. Good luck with that. You can avoid any risk, though, by not taking reps into an AD. If your watchmaker isn't an AD the worst that can happen is that he might refuse to work on the rep.

I think that this concept of a watch as an heirloom is great - with proper care, a good watch could easily last generations. However, I only hope that he appreciates it! In Britain, at least, the younger generation (i.e. teenagers and people in their twenties) rarely wear watches, and usually care far more about their smartphones. I am British, but I live in Asia - and the difference is fascinating. In Asia, the majority of young kids wear watches - and a large proportion of these are big name brands (teenagers tend to wear really cheap reps, affluent guys in their twenties wear good reps or gens and for older men watches are serious status symbols). In Britain, young people don't often wear watches - and the most comments that I have ever had about my watches have been from British youth (I work in a place that brings me into contact with a lot of young people), who think that I am eccentric to be wearing a watch when I have a mobile phone that can tell me the time. These young people don't know the difference between a Rolex and a Timex - they neither know nor care about reps, they just think that watches are eccentric. Living in Asia has been a real breath of fresh air in this respect - it is great that people of all ages really do know about and appreciate their watches.

As others have said, if it is like most A21Js then that is seriously overpriced. However, that is because A21J is usually put into a mediocre, or worse, watch. I have always thought that this is a pity - it is a very decent movement and there is no reason why it shouldn't be put into much better reps than it usually is. Were that to be the case, I would have no problem paying that sort of price.

The vast majority of reps have flaws in the details as a result of poor QC for all of the reasons mentioned here. If a factory does produce a near perfect rep (and I'm sure that they do from time to time) then what sense would it make to sell it to the TDs for a few hundred dollars? If it is that good, they could easily sell it as a grey-market gen for, say, 50% the price of the gen. I'm sure that this happens. In fact, you can see hints of it on this forum. Take the Yachtmaster that TC has been offering recently. I haven't seen one, but people rave about it and how close it is to a gen. Now TC gets them because he goes to China and knows the watchmakers personally. If you read his blog, it is fairly obvious that they are quite reluctant to sell them - even TC has to do a lot of wheeling and dealing. Why do you think this is? I am fairly sure that it is because these same factories are making fake grey-market gens. The watches that end up with the TDs are either going to be the ones that aren't good enough to cut it on the grey market, or else made at the lowest possible cost with cheap materials and non-existent QC.

I have had a couple of A21J movements serviced and regulated. One of them came back accurate to about 10s per day, the other is outstanding - accurate to about 5s per week. However, in both cases, though, the watchsmith (different ones) gave me a health warning that it was at my own risk if they couldn't get any improvement or even broke it. I think these movements are wildly variable in quality. The good ones can be great, but there are some poorer ones out there that might be difficult to regulate or might easily break when they are disassembled.

Hmm... that, to me, sounds like a dodgy dealer trying it on. In almost all countries there is consumer protection legislation that gives customers rights to a refund if goods aren't of merchantable quality. This is over and above any obligations of the warranty - it is a fundamental legal right.

A replica Rolex Submariner obtained from TC - an amateur/semi-pro watchsmith/importer and Rolex enthusiast. His subs are widely regarded as the best rep subs available out of the box today.

I said "closer to", not identical. The point that I was making was that small Homage companies, like Chinese rep factories, don't have the resources of a huge corporation like Rolex or even Seiko. I don't doubt that they are made by outstanding craftsman with excellent quality control - but the very best Chinese factories can be pretty good too (and I believe that TC personally inspects and tests every watch he ships out). Yes, of course, that is the key difference. The very best reps might come close to some of the great homage watches in terms of the actual physical item. I say might, I'm not saying that they do! However, they will never come close to the after sales support offered by even the tiniest legitimate company - simply because that company is legitimate. If you buy a rep from an illegal dealer, then you don't even have the most basic statutory rights.

It depends what you mean by "quality". If you simply mean build quality - the quality of materials used, the precision of the engineering, and consistency of the finished product - then it is conceivable that some super reps could be better than some homages. A TC sub will never be able to come close to the quality of a gen, simply neither the Chinese factories nor TC have the resources of Rolex. I also very much doubt that they could come close to the quality of a homage produced by a large corporation like Seiko. They may well cut corners on the precision and the materials to produce a low cost product, but they are a large enough organisation to have good QA and a very high standard of consistency. In the case of small homage companies such as MKII, then there is a better chance that a TC might equal or exceed them - their resources are going to be far closer to those of a Chinese rep factory. I fact, I believe that some small watch makers outsource their manufacture to China - so they might even be made in the same factories as reps! I have never handled a TC, but most people who have seem to love them, so I don't doubt that the build quality is superb. However, there are interesting stories about fitting gen inserts - sometimes they seem to fit flawlessly, but sometimes they need to be sanded. This speaks volumes about the consistency - there are obviously subtle differences between individual watches. This would never happen with a large homage manufacturer. However, if by "quality" you mean the overall quality of the experience of buying a watch then no rep can ever compete with a homage. The very fact that homage watches are made by completely legal and above board companies means that you have assurance of help if something goes wrong. You will have a legally enforceable warranty and, certainly in the case of big companies, very good after sales service. With reps, you can never even be sure exactly who made it. Because what they are doing is illegal, the factories don't publish their addresses and, in all probability, even the dealers don't know exactly who they are. If you buy a watch from TC, all that you will have is the assurance that he has the reputation of being a very decent guy and will probably help you out if things go wrong. That may count for a lot, but it is a long way short of the sort of after sales service that you will get from a company like Seiko. Ultimately, though, you pay your money and take your choice. Whatever gives you the most satisfaction.

Really, you can't generalise - it is whatever makes you happy. A TC is likely to look nicer than most homage watches (although many are very nice, they don't quite have the beauty of the Rolex design - it isn't all about the label). However, a TC will be less reliable than a homage watch from a respectable company that comes with after sales service and a warranty. But ultimately, they are both watches - so which do you prefer. It is like asking the question - should you buy one gen or twenty reps, there is no right answer - it is down to what will bring you the most pleasure.

I have wondered about those before, but I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that they are flawed gens that failed the QA (i.e. effectively factory seconds)? But you say they are not made with gen parts - therefore are they flawed reps? If that is the case, then why are they so expensive?

Is his 1:1 non-Chinese rep a genstein? I don't doubt that if money is no object then there are such things available. I also have no doubt that, barring the serial number, these could potentially fool an AD. After all, they are entirely gen parts just not assembled by the watch company. Since many watch manufacturers don't make a centralised database available to Ads, a really well assembled genstein could potentially be indistinguishable. I think that this sort of bet is pissing in the wind. This guy obviously knows he can win, so there is some trick going on - and my guess is that he knows of someone who is selling one or two gensteins.

I can't believe that anyone is stupid enough to do this. In most countries customs really don't care about a single watch in bubble wrap. It may be contraband - but frankly they have better things to do with their time. What they do care about is things like drugs and explosives. Toys that show up on X-Ray machines as having something hidden inside are always going to be examined very thoroughly, just in case they do contain drugs or explosives. Once the customs guys have gone to the trouble of opening your package and cutting open a toy, only to find a fake watch - they are bound to confiscate the watch, pretty much on general principle!