tode1640

Tritium is indeed a gas - it is, in fact, hydrogen. It is a radioactive isotope of hydrogen, but chemically it is identical to non-radioactive hydrogen. That means it can be incorporated into any compound that contains hydrogen. For example, water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen - so tritiated water is composed of tritium and oxygen. It is identical to ordinary water in every respect, other than the fact that it is radioactive (don't try drinking it!). The mixture that was used to paint watch dials consisted of Zinc Sulphide, a tritiated polymer and various dyes and binding agents. Zink Sulphide is luminous, but on its own it doesn't last long without being continually excited. Tritium would indeed continually excite it. However, when the tritium decays what you would be left with would be something that could indeed by charged by light - but would then only glow very briefly. We are certainly not talking superlume here. This is why 30 year old tritium watches tend to glow slightly at best. I have no idea what is in the mix that vintage relumers use. I suppose it would be possible to create a superlume that in daylight looked like aged tritium lume. Alternatively it would be possible, and probably more authentic, to create a non-glowing "lume" that looked like elderly trotted lume. If the person making the mix had access to tritiated compounds (which are used for various applications) it would even be possible to mix up a genuine tritium lume. However, tritiated material is not available to the general public - one would need contacts in specialist industries to get hold of it. Incidentally, I used to work in a lab where we routinely used tritiated amino acids for experiments. This stuff came as a liquid and the bottles were kept in locked cabinets along with a lot of legally required paperwork too keep track of every drop.

I live in Malaysia, and here many, possibly most, young people wear low quality reps. Watches are far more fashionable amongst the young here than they are in Europe or America, and most kids buy their watches on market stalls. Some of these stalls sell unbranded watches, but many sell cheap reps. These typically cost about $10-20 and bear only a passing resemblance to the gens, but they are extremely popular. It is possible to get good quality reps too, but they are far more unusual and you need to know where to go to get them. However, what this means is that if you get into pretty much *any* train or bus you will see at least half a dozen people wearing their ticking quartz rolies.

There is no need to "activate" tritium. The radioactive tritium in the paint causes the luminous dye to glow in the complete absence of light. You can leave the watch in a drawer for a year, and it will still be glowing when you take it out. The snag is that the half-life of tritium causes it to decay. After 12 years, there will only be half the radioactivity at the start - and that means the glow will be pretty faint. By 20+ years it is barely noticeable. That is why vintage tritium watches rarely glow. I presume that the tritium relume that some modders do replicates the appearance of an old tritium dial rather than a brand new tritium dial (i.e. it will have a yellowed aged look, and won't glow). Modern ones still do. They use beta lights, which contain tritium in completely sealed tubes. They will always glow without using any power, and so are useful safety devices. They do need to be replaced every few years, though, because they get fainter as the tritium decays. Ah, if you are going to do that, what you want is radium! That has a half-life of thousands of years, and was used in watches up until the 1930s. Sadly, the stuff is seriously dangerous to factory workers (many of them died a horrible death, in the days when it was being used). However, the decay is so slow that effectively the watch will permanently glow in the complete absence of light. I have seen a vintage 1920s watch with a radium dial - still glowing as brightly as the day it was made.

If the condition is perfect, why do these guys get them replaced? If it isn't perfect, then that wasn't what we were talking about. The discussion was about NEW inserts.

I fail to see why people bother about this. Plenty of people buy reproduction furniture or artwork to adorn their homes, and there is never any stigma in that. It is possible to buy an extremely good copy of a Van Gogh painting for a few hundred dollars. People own these because they like being surrounded by things of great beauty. Does anyone worry that they couldn't afford the $16 million to buy the original?! I have worn reps for years because they too are things of beauty. Only once has anyone ever talked to me about a watch I am wearing, and that was someone else who wears reps. I don't care how much the gen costs, all I want is a nice watch. Virtually no one I know cares what watch I wear. If anyone does, then I really don't care what other people thin. That said, I could in theory afford most of my watches as gens. I don't buy gens costing thousands of dollars, because although I like watches, I don't like them that much! However, the price of the gen has nothing to do with my decision to buy a rep - I just choose watches that I like, and I guess that I have cheap(ish) tastes (I certainly loathe bling with a passion). Mind you, although I mostly have cheap tastes, I do get an occasional yearning for a Patek Philippe grand complication! If I ever see a really nice rep of one of those I will probably succumb.

But not, I think, new. What triggered some skepticism was the statement: There are lots of gen inserts for this sort of price on Ebay - but they tend to be quite faded and scratched. That is fine if you are going for the vintage look, but if you want new shininess then the price is more likely to be of the $250-300 order.

There is a long list of things that I would worry about before I worried about radioactive watches - including lightning strikes and being hit by meteorites. It is true that radioactive contaminents have been detected in steel, but only in very tiny amounts. Even if there was a problem, I would worry about being exposed to tons of steel - not the few grams in your watch. There is a lot more steel in your car than in your watch, and a lit more in steel buildings than that. You are constantly bombarded with natural "background" radiation. The rocks beneath your feet generate it. This is likely to be a far higher exposure than you will get from even large quan[censored]ies of slightly contaminated steel.

Thanks a lot for this. One quick question, though. Do the gen SMPs all have the He symbol on the helium valve? The ones that I have seen have, but there are so many variants. Most reps, even otherwise quite decent ones, seem to have the Omega symbol on the helium valve, exactly the same as on the crown. I do wonder if some gens do in fact have that - anyone know?

The guy in my local rep shop (I'm lucky enough to live in Asia, where there are such things), always makes a point of warning people not to wear his watches for sports. He says that the build quality isn't good enough to survive that sort of stress. I guess that some of the really high end modern reps with gen construction and swiss movements would probably be OK - but do you want to risk a $600 watch? You are probably best off with a cheap quartz rep - that is probably more likely to survive than an automatic, and if it doesn't then at least it wouldn't cost you too much. You could possibly go for one of the models where the gen is quartz - an Omega Seamaster springs to mind as a sports watch in which the gen is available as either an automatic or a quartz model.

Yes, I wasn't planning to buy it - whatever the movement is, it does have the horrible off-centre date pusher and that is the thing that I would most like to get fixed. I was initially just intrigued, but now I am getting cross! Watch Eden is a TD, and if they are selling an A21J masquerading as a 7750 then that is bad. I know that they have a reputation of being cheap and cheerful - but by their standards, this is pretty expensive. They actually list 13 different watches in their PAM Power Reserve/GMT section, that are claimed to have Valjoux 7750 movements. These are much more expensive than their A21Js, ($228-$408, whereas many of their A21Js are $128), but most of them have closed case backs so you can't see the movement and on a couple you can clearly see the button pusher. If they are charging a premium price for the 7750, but you are actually get an A21J then that is a scam. I thought the whole point of the TD system was that the TDs have been shown to be essentially honest and not perpetrate this sort of scam.

OK - what does anyone think of this? Panerai Luminor PAM 090 Power Reserve Asia Valjoux 7750 from Watcheden.net. I am intrigued! It claims to have an Asian Valjoux 7750 movement, and yet also has a functional PR - which I thought was impossible for 7750s. It does, though, have the horrible off centre date button. Is this an A21J masquerading as a 7750, or has a 7750 been modified to take a PR mechanism? If the latter is the case, why is there still a date setting button?

Accurate, but ugly! I really don't like "ticking" second hands - be the gens or reps.

Are you planning to do these mods yourself? If this is a project watch, then great - go for it. However, if you are intending to pay someone else to do this for you, then you could be looking at spending a fair chunk of change here. Is it really worth spending a lot on a $79 watch? The amount that you would spend could go a long way towards buying you a much more "gen like" sub. Something like a TC, even without mods, is as close as you can currently get to a gen without buying a gen. Your modded $79 watch is unlikely to ever get anywhere near that close.

Probably quite well. Whether or not the "diamonds" stay in their settings, is down to the build quality of the rep. I would expect your average $20 Canal Street fake to start shedding stones pretty quickly, but a good quality rep should be OK. As for the "diamonds" themselves, in a decent rep they will be cubic zirconium. This is very hard - so should wear well. It isn't quite as hard as diamond, but it will scratch glass and there isn't a lot that will damage it. It doesn't sparkle quite as brightly as real diamonds, and the quality of reflected light is different - but unless you have something to compare it with, most people would be hard put to tell the difference. Depends if it is the ladies version or not ;-) IMO (and you asked!) diamonds look absolutely fine on the wrist of the sort of woman who wears a lot of jewellery. As a dress watch it can go very nicely as a part of an overall ensemble. For mens watches, though, rep or gen - diamonds look too jeezzzy for words! They always make me think of a stereotypical pimp - they would go nicely with your broad-rimmed felt hat, fur coat and gold-tipped cane. I loathe bling with a passion. However, to each their own - if you like it then good luck to you!

I have yet to see a quartz rep with a second hand that sweeps smoothly - they mostly "tick" in one second increments. It is possible to build quartz movements that sweep, and there are some very nice quartz gens that do. However, the cheap quartz movements that are used in reps almost always tick (if anyone knows of exceptions, then please post them here). I really hate ticking second hands on reps. Not only is it an instant tell that is obvious from across the room, but worse, it seems just plain ugly to me.

I once had a screw on a PAM that absolutely wouldn't budge - I tried heating it, soaking it in WD40 and putting in a lot of elbow grease. In the end I took it to a jeweller who did it for me for free, while he was doing some other work. I think it helps to have *exactly* the right screwdriver, and possibly to know how to use it!

Correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure that no AD will just sell parts. I don't doubt that they will replace the insert in your gen for this sort of price, but that won't help much if you are fitting out a TC sub.

Where do you get a new gen insert from for $95? I have only seen scratched and faded used inserts for that sort of price, and I have seen new ones sell for a lot more. If you know of a reliable source for under $200, then please post it.

That's why I asked my original question - are there any good functional PR reps that aren't hideously expensive? The short answer is, sadly, no. I might well get a PAM 104 one day - that is almost the same watch but without the PR, and reps are available with a better movement. I would, no doubt, hanker for that PR, though.

OK - possibly fun was not the best choice of words! Fascination with the device would be a better way of phrasing it. After all, why else wear watches - than to appreciate the beauty of the mechanical device? Most phones are actually better than telling the time than even the most expensive watch, so they are hardly very functional.

It isn't a question of being obsessed with the movement, it is just that I don't see the point in having a PR model if the PR doesn't work. I don't have any problem with non-PR Panerais - something like a PAM 104 is very similar, except it doesn't have the PR indicator. That is a nice watch, but I fail to see what cluttering up the dial of a 104 with an extra subdial that doesn't do anything does to improve its looks - and that is effectively what the faux reps do. I like my 090, because it is fun watching the PR go up and down. Why don't I buy a gen? Well, I like my PAM 090 - but I like at least five other watches as much. Although I like watches, I don't like them enough to want to tie $40-50K up in them! That is why I'm going to stick with my A21J unless I come across an affordable 2892-2.

This goes to the heart of why I wear watches. It isn't that anyone is going to notice - I don't care if people notice, if anyone mentions my watch I will tell them it is a rep. I wear watches because they are fascinating working mechanical devices. The key word, there, is working. If there is a feature on the watch that doesn't work then, for me, that defeats the point of having the watch in the first place. I don't actually care that much about it being a "perfect" rep. The reason that I hate the button pusher on the A21Js is that it is ugly rather than that it is inaccurate. But a dial that does nothing - no, for me that is a deal breaker. I don't doubt that the H-Factory A7750 is a very good watch - and it will be fine for people who care about the appearance rather than the mechanics. But for me a faux dial is completely unacceptable. That is why I will stick with my A21J with the button pusher. That button is ugly, but it is a lesser evil - at least the functionality is all there.

In my post above. He doesn't run an e-commerce site (as he explains in his blog, he isn't a dealer). If you want to buy something from him then drop him an e-mail.

It depends what you mean by confidence! The trusted dealers listed on this site are trusted in the sense that they are known to forum members, and generally have a reputation of being reliable with fair prices. That isn't to say that there aren't other perfectly good web sites out there, but there are also a lot of scam sites purporting to sell reps - and it can be hard to tell the difference. So you are probably best advised to stick to the TDs. However, do be aware of what you are getting into. You can't use the phrase "buy from with confidence" in the way that you could were you to order a gen Seiko from Amazon. The rep business is illegal - at least for the dealers. This means that you are taking a risk when you order a rep. Dealers could, and sometimes do, suddenly disappear for all sorts of reasons - possibly taking customers money with them. Watches can be seized by customs and never heard of again. You won't have a warranty - if something goes wrong, the TDs will usually try to help you, but they are under no obligation to do so and you have no legal recourse if they don't. I'm not trying to put you off ordering your rep - most people who do so through a TD have a very good experience, but do be aware that "confidence" is a relative term. Personally, I prefer to buy watches in person, but I'm lucky and I live in Asia where there are backstreet shops, if you know where to go, where you can get reasonable reps. That way you can see what you are getting before you part with any money. Assuming that you want to or have to order over the Internet, then TDs are the lowest risk way to go. BTW, you might like to have a look at this PO from Trusty - it looks as though it fits your requirements nicely.

I'm not particularly hung up on accuracy - I am just after a nice watch. I don't wear reps to pass them off as gens, I wear them because they are design icons and objects of beauty. My problem with the date button isn't that it is a tell that is obvious from yards away, it is the fact that it is ugly and it really spoils the elegant lines of the case. I wouldn't mind so much if it was positioned a bit lower - but mine, at least, is very high - and to me that makes the whole watch look lopsided. Pity. I wonder where the DSN watches are made - they do look nice. Trusty Time lists an 028 for $578 - which is the cheapest I have seen, and I really object to spending that much on a rep. I live in Asia and have a few backstreet contacts - I will ask around, but I doubt that they will be much cheaper (even if they can get them). I agree, the do look pretty good, but the faux power reserve is a deal breaker for me. This goes to the heart of the reason that I wear watches. In this day and age no one needs to wear a watch to tell the time. Every phone can tell the time more accurately than most watches, and if you really want a utilitarian watch then a $20 Casio will do the job better than a ten Rolex. The reason that I wear watches is that they are at one and the same time beautiful jewellery, and working machines. I find this an endlessly fascinating combination, but the key aspect of the working machines bit is that they work. I have never been able to abide any non-functioning dial, and a faux power reserve would bug me far, far more than that ugly button. I guess that for the time being, I will stick to my A21J. It is a pity because I would quite like a better movement, and I would love to get rid of that button - but such is life.