RWG Technical

Very nice. I on the other hand, came home to find flyers on my door step...

I have had poor results with the 2892 clone's, they all had defects. I finally had to replace them with ETA 2892's, the clone's are very poor quality, surprised you got yours working with the ETA parts.

For a number of reasons: - simplified compared to the others I have seen - consists of only 1 adjustment gear replacing the original Day change gear on the 2836-2, a quickdate set modified drive gear, and the GMT gear that sits on top of the existing movement hour wheel cover assembly and is held in place by the dial and a dial washer, simple, and in line with other GMT ETA movemnets in it's design - no crappy cover assembly made with a bunch of bent junk all bent and twisted and secured with partial screws attempting to hold the GMT gear in place and jamming up against it etc, this time they got it right, simple and effective, minimal parts to do the job - simply drive gear from the autodate intermediate gear, same design as ETA uses, nothing to go wrong - gears all appear well made and should not pose any problems if lubricated and cared for during normal servicing The GMT gear with the adjustable detent mechanism is well made, seems to work well, and once lubricated shows no problems. It is quite rugged and I don't see any reasons not to use and adjust it. It's somewhat overbuild, but if compared to the 2893-2 GMT gear, is no worse in design. As long as it's lubricated, I would use it without any concerns.

Thanks for the feedback. 24 hours after the transplant, all is well, the watch is running perfectly and keeping excellent time.

Yes, it's the jumping hand model gear. Adjustment is opposite the quickset date in the crown mid position. HP-1300 used, or D5 whichever you have on hand. For the slipping one, probably not enough tension on the detent spring? Overall...A2892's seem to be poor, not had a lot of good luck with them, and I haven't seen any with a GMT modification so no feedback on that model...

The latest version of the long running GMT movement is quite well made...finally...after all these years. At least the GMT parts seem to be well made, unfortunately this particular A2836-2 has been ruined by unskilled hands. The watch was sent in for servicing, the initial teardown showed that despite being wound, the movement was not running, first sign of a problem. During the teardown, a few clues were noted, all the screws were damaged, as you can see here, the last person to work on this one wasn't even capable of selecting the correct sized screwdriver...no wonder there is so much damage... Once the movement was fully torn down, a quick overall inspection revealed a show stopper, check out the damage where the pivot hole is located in the mainplate for the calendar autochange gear. I have never seen this type of damage. As you can see in this picture, the hole is somewhat larger than the pivot, it's no wonder the movement would not run, the gear would move sideways and jam up the works. I am baffled as to how this could happen, it looks as if someone beat it with a punch and hammer, why they did this is beyond me. Here is an overall view of the movement, note in this view the "FAKE" bottom balance c0ck side piece is removed, it's completely disfunctional and serves no purpose. Here is the movement with the GMT parts removed. That damage to the mainplate renders it scrap, you need a complete new mainplate, and since this movement is an Asian Clone, it's beyond repair. I offered the owner a couple of options (instead of re-assembling the movement and watch and shipping to China...) one option was that I supply a ETA 2836-2, completely serviced, and switch over the GMT parts from the Asian copy onto the ETA. The owner agreed that this was a good solution, and in reality, a cheaper solution than shipping the watch back to China. Parts were swapped over from the clone to the ETA. Here's the clone and ETA before putting the clone back together. Movement is running and being tested. Along with the swap of the parts, the GMT gear and it's detent were lubricated, as were the other GMT gears, the GMT hand now snaps perfectly to it's new position when adjusting it. Total turn time, from when the customer contacted me, to today, less than 2 weeks. How's that for customer service. That is the advantage of being organized and putting your customers first, and not ignoring them for months on end after they send you a watch for a simple job, or better yet, a relume. Barring any running problems, the watch will be in the mail by the end of the week, and back on the customer's wrist. This is the first of the Asian clone 2836-2's that I have seen with this problem. Normally they are well made and respond well to servicing. Not sure what happend here, I suspect that the watch may have been a customer return (after he or his modder damaged the movement) and that the watch was re-sold. Typically the factory uses the correct screwdrivers, at least the automated movement assembly machines do, and the mainplate pivot hole damage is totally bizzare...knowing that, the only possibility is that it was damaged by unskilled hands. Thanks for reading.

No sarcastic reply from me, only looking from the engineering side and want to know more details. This is the reason for RWG and what makes us a great community. It is a very interesting modification (whatever the details are), BUT, without any more details on the modification and no answers to the questions we have asked, we have no facts to go on. Sorry your feeling like you have been attacked and you won't post anymore.

The jerky seconds hands on any displaced subdial movement, is caused by the spaces between the teeth of the transfer gears. A simple and effective way to reduce and sometimes eliminate jerky seconds hands, is to install a very small dial washer over the post of the last gear, the post with the seconds hand attached to it. The dial washer acts as a damper and eliminates the jerkiness in the hand. In fact, given all the spaces between the transfer gears, less friction will result in MORE jerkiness, not less...the dial washer proves it, it adds slight friction and damping to the motion. The washer is normally found on the latest versions of the movement, it's put there by the factories to reduce jerkiness and slightly increase friction to take up the gaps between the gear teeth...

Without any more details and the questions that need answered - well...answered and details of testing etc provided, my contribution to this topic is over. Members can make of it what they will. I am with Andy and Freddy.

It's not for me, the MEMBERS of RWG deserve details... I guess this says it all...nothing more to add...

Here is a good example of my details above... This is a LWO 283 Chrono module, for a movement used in the Genuine AP with Running Seconds at 12. In this module, the transfer of seconds from the middle of the movement to the 12 position is only via 3 gears, 1 gear on the end of the seconds post on the ETA 2892A2, a flat transfer gear (not unlike the one in the center of the A7750) and a pivoted gear for the hand to attach to. Please note the following points, look at the jewelling and the efforts to reduce friction, and this for only 2 moveable gears (as compared to 4 moveable gears on the A7750), also look at the design of the transfer gear, it's completely jewelled and also held in position by a small arm and the center is also jewelled, so the gear doesn't move around when the watch is moved (unlike the A7750 where the center gear is loose between the plates). This is a correct design, if it takes this much work for only 2 gears, how much would we need for the 4 gears on the A7750. Comments? ================================================================================================================== ====================================================================================================================== ==================================================================================================================== ========================================================================================================================== =======================================================================================================================

Ok, so lets see where this goes, here's what I have learned about the seconds modified A7750's since I took apart and did a report on the first one in 2005, if you remember that one was an ETA7750. Seconds at 12 and at 3 models are completely JEWELLED, and these movements, in my experience, are well designed, well made, and with all the gears running on arbors and pivots in jewels, these models need nothing but a good servicing. There is nothing that should be done to these models except give them a correct servicing, my experience is they are good to go as is. On the very rare occasion when one of the above won't run with the seconds transfer gears in place, there is nothing that can be done to fix the problem, it's a design problem and a combination of poor tolerances on the gears. The cause of the problem is not pivot friction, it's gear meshing friction, which can't be fixed without new gears. Graphite may be a solution but I have had zero success in getting graphite to stick to my parts after I have polished them to a mirror finish... On the seconds at 6 models (Daytona, IWC, etc), the problem is 2 parts, Part 1 none of the transfer gears are properly made with arbour and pivots, Part 2, ALL the gears sit flat on the movement plates and this is the real cause of the most of the friction. The reason these movements don't work correctly is due to the added friction of the 4 transfer gears running on the plates. Some have had success with graphite treatment, but as above, I have not... On the seconds at 6 models, the center transfer gear is only 1/4 of the gears that make up the transfer gears (I am not including gear 5 which is the one on the post for the 4th wheel, this gear has no friction because it's on the end of post and turns freely). So how can modifying only 1 of the 4 gears fix all the friction problems. To properly address any friction issues with the transfer gears (all 4 of them) requires eliminating the friction in ALL the gears, not only 1 gear. I have seen what look like identical movements in 2 different watches give completely opposite results, following the exact same servicing procedure, cleaning, oiling, etc, one of the watches will work perfectly with the running seconds gears in place, and the other identical watch won't work at all. For any test to be valid, you would need to start with a watch that won't run with all the gears in place. If you happen to have an unserviced watch that's not running, and you perform this modification, how do you know what fixed the problem, your servicing, or your modification? You would also need a good sample of watches to perform the test on and check your modifications to be able to know if the modifications actually fixed the problem. I would not be comfortable with good results on only a couple of watches, because of the above facts. For any modification to be valid, not only do you have to address the friction in all the gears, you have to address the friction in all the positions, dial up, dial down, and crown down. If you only put in place a fix that only comes into effect in the dial up position, how can the modification be valid. The testing would have to be done in all positions, and the balance amplitude, and rate would have to be monitored. If there is any loss of power in various positions, you will see the balance swings reduce and the timing run faster. I have seen too many variables with these A7750's to be comfortable in accepting that by a simple modification to only one gear in only one position, that the problem is totally solved, it's never that easy, all you have to do is examine any genuine running seconds transfer movement to see what is really needed to make it work. If your modification is not to the same standard as the design on the genuine models, I don't see how it's going to work... That's about it for now, a lot of questions and these are not directed or meant to be negative, maybe they have all been considered. I know I have considered many of these over the past 6 years, and the answer is not simple or easy... More details and pictures of the process would be a big help, lets see what we get...

It's not about customs and it's not about EU. The forum has lost it's ability to be open and discuss things without members getting all upset and shitting on other members. At one time (you remember, you've been here almost as long as me) we could have open discussions about TECHNICAL matters, without members taking anything personally. Today, everyone takes any comment personally, just look at the sales forum, you say one word or ask a question about a watch, and you get flamed. I love nothing more than a good technical debate, epecially about movements, but when members take a technical comment or question as an insult, it's impossible to have a real discussion and learn more... This is why I don't participate or post anymore, what's the point?

Many years ago I would not hesitate to step in, but times have changed and I don't have the time to spend defending my comments or putting up with PM after PM blasting me for saying anything... Still recovering from my comment on the poor lume application...

Agree. It would be an interesting discussion to comment and provide insight on the techincal and real merits of such a modification, especially given that the modification of the seconds transfer consists of 4 new gears running on the plates. - How does modifying only 1 gear and only on one side of the gear solve the problem when it only involves 25% of the gears, what about the other 75% of the gears, do they not have friction. - How do jewels on the bottom of a gear work to reduce friction - when the movement if flipped over and the gear is not touching the jewels anymore - How do these new jewels work when the movement is held in the vertical position and the gear is running on it's inner edge, - so many questions, but no answers... This discussion can't take place, because many members get offended if even one question is asked, HOW Dare you ask a question!!! If I raise even one doubt as to the viability of this type of modification, I'll be roasted and flamed to hell...so best to not say anything more...I've said to much already... I'll let the members sort it out for themselves. But you are definetly on the right track...I'm with you freddy...

Well done, congrats.

Thank you for the update. So glad to hear your doing better and up and on your feet. Be well and take care of yourself.

Understood...not like you couldn't slip...oh I don't know...a THOUSAND pearls... in a normal envelope with 50 cents in postage...

$36.00 in postage? Guess ole BOOB Frie has to be able to retire somehow. He ripped me off with shipping more than once, charged over $20.00 and sent it regular mail for less than $2.00, miserable prick...

As Andy identified, cannon is slipping. That indication is a sure sign of a movement that's been neglected and not serviced or oiled regularly. The movement needs a complete overhaul and correct lubrication as well as tightening of the cannon pin. If you aren't sure how to do it, send it to someone who's competent, these aren't the most forgiving movements to work on, and spares' are expensive and hard to find... if you have to ask, your in over your head...

Won't ever happen again, I can promise you that...

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Having had to remove broken crystals a number of times, I can tell by looking at this one that your going to have a lot of problems getting the broken crystal out from the case. My suggestion, save yourself a lot of problems, and maybe some really bad cuts and glass in your hands, throw out the watch, it's not worth the risk.

On an unserviced chrono, typically the chrono seconds and minute timer return spring is too strong and not lubricated (so it hits the heart cams really hard), this can cause the seconds hand to slip, added to this problem you have many seconds hands that are defective and not secured to the pipe correctly. These problems will cause the hand to slip and not reset at "12".... So to minimize the center seconds hand from slipping when you reset the chrono, you SHOULD only reset when the center seconds hand is located between 10 and 2 on the dial face. On all of my chono's, they have been serviced, and the hands have been repaired, so I routinely reset from the 6 o'clock position or anywhere else I feel like resetting, hand slippage is not and never has been an issue. These watches also have been serviced and I have corrected the defect with the reset hammer and spring.

No need to fear any A7750 chrono, they are bullet proof and the reality is that 99% of the parts that make up the chrono are running ALL THE TIME, even with the Chrono OFF. So it's a misunderstanding to think that by not using the chrono your actually reducing the chance of a failure of the movement. I use all of mine, all the time, dozens of times during the day...and I have been doing this for 6 years, no problems, no hand slipping, no defects, ever. So use your chrono, otherwise wear a non-chrono model