r11co

No luck, Fred. The decline in quality of the SMP rep is well documented. Seems to be a case of it being a victim of its own popularity, so the makers don't feel they have to try. I doubt that the people making it now are the same ones who built the ST-18 and first 2824 versions.

Another POS from Josh. This piece isn't a patch on the out-of-production model. Plastic movement holder (gen and rep uses an alloy one), non decorated and incorrect movement (rep and gen used silver 2824 with gold Breitling engraving on rotor), wrong '4' on bezel, [censored] pearl, 'B' on crown too small. I've got Ubi's old one and you can do a quick search for his breakdown on the old model to see for yourself the differences. Josh's piece is a rep of a rep. Not worth the money IMO. @chieftang - the out-of-production Seawolf should already have double-sided AR. Mine does!!

Where you been the last few months?!?! Josh is now blatantly taking the [censored] - dropping quality and increasing margins. That's what happens once you've squeezed others out the market and can afford to live on a reputation you earned long ago but no longer adhere to the principles of.... This is a piece of cack. Josh used to sell quality SMPs and should be able to recognise that this isn't worth the asking price, regardless of ETA movement. NEWBS BEWARE - this is a bad watch.

Hey - I guess I win. The first RWG watch (OK, strap) poll that actually delivered the desired product :D If Pugs can get free watches then why can't I get a free strap?!?! Oh, and Del Deaton is a complete plank. I have had some direct dealings with him and he's annoying in the extreme - he doesn't know subtlety and is an utter embarrassment.

Jeez - I go on holiday for a week and miss the very thing I've been campaigning the best part of a year for......

PAW is still ailing. He has a new movement, but it is no thanks to my ambitions being greater than my skills that PAW still doesn't work. The minute hand keeps slipping so I can only assume that the new movement is of slightly different spec despite looking identical. Either that or I have done something wrong.... Edit: PAW lives! Just in time to get on the flight to PISA (yay!)

If you've been following the development of the rep PO strap in here you would know that not only does Doc own a genuine PO strap but he provided the photographs and dimensions for the replication process. He's talking from experience too!

The movement in the Asian uPO bears no resemblance to the ETA2824 design. The movement has its own industry recognised designation - DG8413M. The movement is of the same grade found in, say, the 'Noobmariner' or the less expensive Asian versions of the Omega Seamaster reps. These are also examples of watches that exist in two forms - ETA and Asian ('21J'). The difference though is that the Asian movement versions of these watches come in at the $90-$110 price mark. OK, so the movement is being misrepresented, but the watch is less expensive, so what's the problem? Well, why mis-name it unless it means you can justify a $30 markup on similar watches?!

In the past the distinction between Asian and Swiss 7750 has pretty much been recognised and accepted. I have never yet read in here of someone paying the extra for a Swiss 7750 and receiving an Asian. I can understand your uncertainty though. What I will add is that the price differential between Swiss and Asian 7750 chrono reps is no longer reflected in the price of Swiss 7750 movements on the open market - whereas at one time they were scarce and expensive they can now sometimes be obtained for less than $200.

Well spotted. That is exactly what it is. Oh, hang on - it can't be. Us experts know nothing. Well, let's have a look... The bad news for anyone contemplating a movement swap to ETA is that the hand set will not be compatible. The good news though is that complete replacement movements are readily available. Just don't order anything called '2824' though.......

Yup

I love your irreverence

An interesting discovery... uPO Lite not 2824 More blatant misrepresentation.

Because of things kicking off elsewhere in this and other fora, and the distinct possibility of certain watches being passed off as having one type of movement when what they have bears no relation to the description whatsoever, I am sure that there are owners of ultimate Planet Oceans who ordered and paid for it to have an ETA2824 movement who may now be thinking that they wouldn't know if the watch actually had the Asian movement described by certain dealers as 2824-2 (which bears little resemblance to the real 2824 and is actually much closer in design to typical cheap Asian movements we are used to in reps, which I will explain shortly). Well, here is how to tell without having to remove the caseback. Unscrew the crown and hand-wind the watch a little. If your movement is ETA then the winder will ratchet in both directions as you would expect. If your movement is the Asian the winder will ratchet in one direction only and spin freely the other. I discovered this yesterday when I was asked to check over a uPO 'lite' an acquaintance had bought from one of our cartel dealers (despite my misgivings....). Externally the watch is identical in almost every detail to my ETA uPO, the only visual difference being the date font, but without something to compare it to most buyers will not be able to rely conclusively on that as a tell. Notwithstanding the fact that this person paid only $17 less for his watch than I paid a non-cartel dealer for mine, this little discovery about the operation of this movement makes me call into question its description as a 2824-2. Now, I haven't heard of anyone being mis-sold an Asian uPO as an ETA and no-one has yet reported such a thing in the forum, so I present this information purely so that owners can put their mind at rest. However, I think it opens up another issue about movement representation in general by the cartel dealers who we already know will mis-name a product to make it more appealing. It does not function the same way as a 2824 except insofar as it has the same beat, but to suggest that this justifies the description is a bit like suggesting that because an articulated lorry has the same horsepower as a Ferrari then they are the same. This movement looks and feels like a faster beat version of the DG2813 I just bought to replace the dead movement in PAW - it even carries the same markings (WO under the balance wheel). Take a look. Here is a stock photo of the DG2813 from the people I bought it from... and the uPO lite movement.... Ignore the shape of the rotor (which has been clearly cut to mimic the shape of the ETA rotor) and look at all the other details. This Asian movement described as 2824 looks nothing like the 'Asian 2824' The Zigmeister did a breakdown of (which IMO deserves to carry the number 2824). This movement is a Miyota copy ie. a copy of a Japanese Citizen movement, but that doesn't sound nearly as nice as the completely false 'Asia copy ETA' description now, does it?!! Don't get me wrong - it's a half way decent movement, but it ain't what they are saying it is. Not even close....

He is either grabbing what he can before the ship sinks, or he thinks there is more to be gained from going down with it? Insult added to injury doesn't even come close....

You have no idea how wrong you are on this one, jfreeman. I suggest that you butt out before you make a fool of yourself. Josh (Perfect Clones) and Andrew (TrustyTime) teamed up long ago. They have made no secret of it. They will however exploit the ignorance of people like yourself if it suits both you and them. Do your homework, get with the story, then consider your reply to this, if you think one is appropriate.

There is more than enough info on movements in general out there for you to be able to answer your question. Specifically - what movement are you looking to replace? This will help you establish ligne/thickness, diameter, hand-post dimensions and date window position. Then you have to find a quartz movement that matches those specifications. I don't hold much hope though....

Find By-Tor's review thread (above). Find the post where I show you a picture of the tool to use to remove the pins. Obtain one (less than $10 from ebay). Go for it. Without one of these tools you are seriously risking damaging your bracelet. If you are looking for short cuts there aren't any.....

Which is why this thread was inevitable. The 'Little White Lies' thread was a warning shot that was treated with contempt.

That sounds like our Neil

At the risk of splitting what is at the moment a united front, I still say that the lies are related to price. Price might not be the reason we object to being lied to, but if you read Andrew's justification for lying about the not-even-close-to-ETA2892 movement in the B&R is that if we'd actually wanted what they were claiming the watch had then they would had to increase the price. In other words if we wanted to live our fantasy, get a B&R and believe that the watch was good we could pay 'X', whereas if we wanted them to go to the 'great risk and trouble' to actually put in it what they claimed was already there the price would have been 'X+a lot more'. That is why I went ballistic with him yesterday. He was suggesting he was doing us a favour by lying to us therefor saving us money. Talk about inverted thinking - that verges on delusional. Price is a subjective thing and ultimately driven by market forces so we can't use price alone as a reason to be aggrieved. It is still though at the heart of the issue if the lies are told in order to give truth to the lie about the price too. To summarise - price might not be our justification for being aggrieved, but it is most definitely the reason they have been motivated to lie, and an arrest of the cash flowing to them will be the only thing that will stop the lies.

Why would they do that if it is not to allow them to protect or increase their mark-up?! No dealer is operating a charity. Of course price is the issue, if not for us then at least for them. Read it and weep.... Stop sticking your head in the sand or pretending that talking money is demeaning. Price becomes an issue for everyone when restriction of trade eventually allows the cartel to charge BestSwiss prices plus, which is the natural consequence of what is going on. Do you think once the competition is gone they'll say to themselves 'that price is high enough, I think I'll leave it at that....'?! Why all of a sudden does it seem distasteful to suggest we are all looking for the best deal here?! There is no status in paying over the odds - only deserved ridicule...

We have actually, but the increases in the short term have been largely imperceptible and have gone un-noticed by many. If we could use, as a price indicator, the best quality ETA2824 movement Omega replica of the time - about two years ago you could snag the best Seamaster Pro for $179 including delivery from two dealers I could mention but won't. Last week saw the release of the latest Omega Planet Ocean, based on the existing Ultimate (ie. the best), the Casino Royale Special Edition. Price - $300 + delivery, almost double. The prices didn't leap though - they crept up. Even $235+delivery was the going rate for the best 7750 movement watches a year ago - the same price as a standard uPO today from the cartel. I bought my uPO for $175 from one of our known dealers who shortly afterwards shut-up shop due to PayPal issues. I refused to pay the cartel's price and would have gone without the watch had it not become apparent to me that it wasn't worth anything like the price being charged and I could obtain it for a lot less. The thin end of the wedge was banged in the day Perfect Clones came into being. So even those people who have never been dealt a bad turn in terms of product or customer services are suffering by artificially inflated prices. Read the emails guys - price fixing is going on and the cartel dealers are laughing at you all the way to the bank....

Hear here. It pisses me off that some people think willfull ignorance is to be respected.

Kanerich put it far more eloquently than me, but I said the same thing a few pages ago (although most of you probably didn't get past the profanities.... )