jake48

Rolli - Are you reading this stuff? Showering and swimming in "shallow" water at 165ft? Swimming and snorkeling at 330ft? That guide must be for superman. I don't know about you, but being a mere mortal and all, I consider "shallow' water around 3ft and when I swim, along with most of the people I know, we rarely snorkel to depths of 330ft. Well, there was this on time I was snorkeling off the coast of Thailand and I saw a mermaid and... well... that is another story!

You guys are quick - by the time I made the math corrections and re-posted your post was already up! Do I pass now? Also, as far as water pressure exerted on a watch case due to water force or a wrist moving through the water - every thing you read is pure speculation based on even more speculation. What I can tell you is fact - My watch tested to 3atm - I surf with it. I can't really see someone having more water force moved against their watch swimming, snorkeling or in the shower than a 6ft wave crashing on your head. All I can tell you is that I have been surfing with this CN Sub at least 60 times the past year and it works fine. Would I swan dive from a 60ft cliff into the water with it on my wrist and expect it to hold? - You bet! I see a lot of people give advice or speculate because they heard someone say, or they think X based on X or read X so X must be true - What I am telling you is real world, put it to the test, stuff. My advise for anyone wondering what would happen if they jumped form a 3 meter platform with their watch on is - DO IT! Find out for yourself! It is a heck of a lot more fun than holding back because some one said that some one said that... You might even find that there are a lot less "Watch Gurus" out there than you thought. Heck, you might even become a watch Guru yourself!

Rolli, Not sure where your "official" chart came from but 10atm (approx. 270ft of depth) to swim snorkel or shower? You either have the ability to hold your breath a hell of a long time or you take showers under a high pressure fire hose. WOW! When I snorkel/spearfish I regularly dive to a depth of about 40ft (12.192 Meters for you Euros or a little over 2atm) and have never had so much as a spec of condensation under the crystal. I had my rep sub pressured checked to 3atm (Approx 66ft in depth) and I have been swimming, snorkeling, surfing and jacuzzying for almost a year now and it is working flawlesly. Go here for my original post on the watch: Waterproof Sub Remember: Always believe half of what you read on the net and then half it again... Try this conversion chart to get an idea of the presure exerted on a watch at depth (every atmosphere is about 15psi of pressure or 101.35 kilopascals) *** ATM *** ATM is the water depth in atmospheres. If ATM is used in place of feet, then all the other calculations are easier. It is my suggestion to always convert feet to ATM, then do the calculations, or get the answer in ATM, then convert to feet. The following is a chart to show ATM v. feet: 1 atm = sea level 2 atm = 33 feet in salt water 3 atm = 66 feet in salt water 4 atm = 99 feet in salt water 5 atm = 132 feet in salt water ATM = (Depth Feet in salt water / 33) + 1 In converting from feet to ATM, divide by 33 then add one. Adding one is because sea level is 1 ATM. -----Example: 56 feet in salt water is (56 / 33) + 1 = 2.7 ATM Depth Feet in salt water = (ATM

No matter how it turns out, I have had fun and that is why I got into this crazy addiction (collecting watches) of ours. I went the other way - started buying Gens and then found reps! (more watches for the bucks) right now I am split down the middle - Reps to Gens - but the reps are taking over! BTW - Strange avatar ya got there...

PP - Don't get me wrong. I have my doubts about WM9 and sure enough when you look at his dial pictures there are differences from the first dial he showed to the second. Is this because he is concocting some big conspiracy to steal our hard earned money with inferior rep watches or are they honest mistakes? Really, untill someone gets a watch in thier hands, we are all just speculating. I understand the skeptisicsm about WM9, he has sold watches for a substantialy higher price then we can get for much cheaper from the dealers we all know. But in trying to be fair, I do not know of one instance were WM9 ripped someone off or scammed someone by telling them they would get a Swiss Movm'nt when they were sent an Asian Movm'nt as an example. I also think that WM9, from what I have read, has always tried to follow up and resolve any issues with disastisfied customers, sometimes even involving refunds. I have asked some of the people who slammed WM9 to tell us exactly how WM9 scammed them or have some one you know step up and say how WM9 stole thier money and it was dead silent. Not one! I don't even know of anyone who has ever purchased or held in thier own hands a watch from WM9 - everyone seems to me to be going by hearsay or pictures from the web. And anyone who has been around the web for a while certaintly would agree that being found guilty from hearsay and pictures taken from the web is not very credable. The only real way to resolve all the speculation is to buy one of his watches and look for ourselves. I am going to do that (buy a 16613). If it doesn't take Gen parts with out modding, trust me, we will find out. If it has cr@ppy 18k plating, we will know. If the rehaut is off, we can all b!tch together. Unless WM9 doesn't want my money we should know in the next month or so. Untill someone actually gets a watch, I wouldn't bank on anything that is being said by anyone, including the BS I write. It's just that, a bunch of guys just bull$h!tting as if they know...

Definetely not a TW best dial. I have one. On the TW best the "S" in submariner is different and the 1 in 1000ft is different I think it all seems to work for the better when we pull out the microscope and disect watches to the Nth degree. We all get better watches. Sometimes I think we get a little carried away though, especially when I read and have seen with my own eyes that even Rolex has variances (not much different than what we are nit pick'n here) from dial to dial, even with in the same model and same year. I posted this at another site and find it very interesting. Notice the difference in the location and font of "SWISS MADE", the different serif's and the "soft edges" to the lettering on one of the dials. Who is to say when you pick apart a dial with a 10x loop it is wrong? Maybe ROLEX is using Rep dials This was taken from a post on another sight: These dials are both from the cuurent model GMT Master II: Here is the link (paste it into your browser and fix the http): hXXX://jholbrook.proboards33.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1181846535

Actually, I think it is one of the better dials I have seen (Except for the S in submariner) Here is a picture of 2007 Z Gen for comparison.

Yeah! That's what I am talking about. Love that crystal height and that is the mother of all pearls (must be Gen) Did you have it re-lumed?

Yeah, I chuckle at myself sometimes - I think I need to take my own advise and slow down a little. Eiither way, I believe we are on the same page and I appreciate your candor and straight forward approach.

By-Tor, Well stated and understood. I certainly agree that it is healthy to be "skeptical about the whole thing" I just don't think saying things like WM9 has been scamming people for years is the same as being skeptical. That's all... As far as "don't try to misrepresent my words." I am not sure what you mean. The post of yours that I quoted and was refering too was quite simple; I wrote: QUOTE(jake48 @ Jun 13 2007, 09:18 PM) * I do not know if WM9's watch is for sure a "noobmariner" (In response to the above) you wrote Did I miss something? I took this to mean that you were saying you knew that the watch that has not been released yet (if you go back to my post were you took my quotes from you I think you can see that is what I was talking about) was just a noobmariner. Maybe you misunderstood me. if I wrote confusingly, i am sorry. I hope I have cleared things up. And I do appreciate your vigilance!

By-Tor, This, I think, is were a lot of the confusion comes from. If you go to WM9's web site and CAREFULLY read what he has posted you will see that WM9 was very clear as to identifying what watch is the 1:1 pre-order watch. The pictures he has provided that he claims are "fully identical to authentic" look just that too me - fully identical to the Gen. The confusion seems to come from people in this thread who took his link, which is clearly identified as "Here are the links to the detailed pictures of the previously made and all sold out VIP's 2005 F-Serial Submariner 16610 and 16613:" as a link to the pre-order case yet to be released. The previous years model does in fact look like some of the subs we have seen from our dealers who were selling them for far less, however, you should take into consideration that some dealers were offering essentialy the same thing as he was offering (bear in mind he claimed to have the watches fully serviced and waterproofed) for essentialy the same price - "Perfect subs" going for around $400.00 to $500.00 - remember? I don't remember people screaming that our dealers were "scammers". Anyway, if you read closely, you would also note that the follow up pictures WM9 posted at the end of the pre-order case photo's are clearly marked "16610 Pre-Manufacturing Sample Dial" and "16613 Pre-Manufacturing Sample Blue Dial" even though the pictures show a sub in it's entirety. This is pretty plain english to me and I took it as - here is a picture of what the dial will look like. No where does WM9 say that "this is what the watch will look like". It seemed obvious to me that since the very pictures depicting the pre-production watch case were labeled "The Pre-Manufacturing Samples of the 2007 Z-Serial Submariner 16610 and 16613" and the pictures that followed were clearly labeled as samples of the "dial" he was not showing the watch in it's final stages as he had already stated that the watch had yet to be finished. What happened in this thread is an example of what I call "dog piling" someone miss-reperesented WM9 and every one else took what was posted as gospel and started railing away at WM9 without even going to look at his web site for themselves. In short, there are no completed pictures of the finished new case sub that WM9 is building, thus all this talk about "it is just a noobmariner" is hogwash based on ignorance. Go look for yourself. This is not to say if WM9 does not produce the watch as he has pictured (case only) he is a bullsh!tter - but it still remains to be seen. Again, I would ask that you go back and check his site out. If that case is made, there will be a line of people who will want one...

tree- I see your point and pretty much agree that there seems to be little doubt that WM9 is selling watches for more than others here are selling for what we have to GUESS is the same watch. I just happen to be one who generaly gives the benefit of the doubt unless I have solid proof or first hand experience to make me believe otherwise. If the criteria for determining that a dealer is a a "scammer" is based on the fact that one dealer sells the same watch that another sells for a higher price, then almost all of our beloved dealers are "scammers". I do not know if WM9's watch is for sure a "noobmariner" and I don't know what WM9 paid to get his watch to market (thus justifing his higher price). I have emailed WM9 several times over the years and my impression from the answers he gave me was that he was trying to build the best Sub he could and charged what he thought he could get for it (or get away with). I passed on purchasing one of his last few subs as I didn't feel they were anything new or earth shattering that I couldn't get for less. From my personal experience, I never felt that WM9 was a scammer. What bugs me is that people who have no first hand knowledge or who have attempted to make even the slightest effort to contact the guy start blithering on and join the dog pile about what a "scammer" he is. Thier fake watches for Christ's sake, man! I will tell you this, after spending considerably more money trying to build a good 16613 than what WM9 is asking for his 16613, if the 16613 is what he says it is, I feel it will be worth every penny of the $625.00 to own it.

Your kinda proving my point Pug. When you make a statement like you did above, flaming someone's character, you should have some first hand knowledge or proof. Have you been "scammed" by WM9 or do you know anyone who will come on here and tell us how they were scammed by WM9? Like I said, I have been closely watching WM9 for the last few years. As far as can remember, the only thing I read about WM9 was that some people reported being unhappy with thier watches as they felt the watches were not as good as they were advertised. Any dealer on here has had that experience. I am not trying to pick a fight, nor am I trying to defend WM9 as I do not have personal experience with this guy. I think the case he is saying he will make will be a good case and quite possibly the best one to date. I am not prepared to make negative statements like "WM9 has been scamming people for years" when I have little or no real proof or experience that would support such a statement. It 's statements like these that I feel are either made from ignorance or done to be malicious (which I doubt) What kind of "experience" are you talking about?

I find the comments regarding WM9 very interesting, unfortunately quite a few seem to come from ignorance. For a community that constantly pines over the smallest details - pearl isn't rounded enough, metal rings around markers are too thick, second hand is too short, second hand is too long, angle of rehaut is too steep, date mag is too strong, date mag is too weak, coronet is wrong shape etc etc etc, when someone comes along that claims to be making a MAJOR improvement to satisfy our unquenchable thirst for the "perfect" rep, why all the attacks? Especially when the watch has not even been produced yet! I have been at this a lot longer then most of those who are spouting the negative comments about WM9 and I have to say, from where I sit, it looks like a pack mentality of people repeating things they have never checked for themselves. I looked at WM9's last offering of 16610's and 16613's and sure enough, he was offering subs, although good subs, that were basically the same we had available to us from our "trusted" dealers. Sure our dealers were cheaper, but I have kept tabs on WM9 over the last two years and I have to say, everything I was able to discern about him led me to believe he was about as honest as they come in the rep world and he was truly trying to provide what he believed to be one of the best subs out there. If he was able to sell it at a greater price - more power to him! This did not make him a scammer, however. What he is currently offering with this new case, if it truly comes out as he has described, will be the single greatest improvement to the modern rep sub to date. PERIOD! Will it be a perfect 1:1? - Probably not. If it ends up being what he claims, I have no doubt we will see our "trusted" dealers offering it too (and probably at a cheaper price as well). Would I pay WM9 high price for this new case - You bet! I am a very sceptical person by nature. I certainly would not bet the farm on WM9, or ANYBODY else in the rep world for that matter, but I am willing to put my money were my mouth is. I am going to buy a WM9 16613 and then we can all see for ourselves if this is a good sub case or just a hoax. If it is a good sub case I will consider myself lucky and there will be a lot of people out there who will look like ignorant blow hard fools. If it ends up being a hoax - I was the fool for spending the money. I still think it would be wise to reserve judgement untill we know for sure. Like pug said; This means to me that right now, right here, this new sub case (if it is as claimed) will probably be as good as it gets for a while. And if you have made a "hobby" out of of trying to find/make the best rep sub you can, wouldn't you want to see this case made? I would...

Pug - your funny.

Yeah, I admit what I wrote has a little A$$ ki$$ sound to it, but you have to admit, Az is one heck of a writer. You don't write that bad either RT and truthfully I am not trying to "egg" anyone on. No one on the net ever really needs any help in that department, trust me. This is usually where my common sense meter kicks in and I bow out... Feel free to PM me if you want to rant on, no sense making this thing longer and more drawn out then it needs to be. Good luck my friend.

OK - Now I am reeeeeeally envious of your writing style- you sir, should run for President. I have often been told I am lucky to have the talent of writing clear, concise and to the point. When compared to you, I am the writing equivalent to the kid who bangs on a guitar with no formal lessons, but in his mind he is playing like Andr

WOW - 11 pages - I am sure glad I get to read this stuff at work and get paid for it! For what it is worth I see it in real simple terms - 1. Joe definitely does some outstanding work 2. Some people are happy with Joes work/some are not 3. If you send your watch to Joe it may/may not take long time 4. The odds are in your favour that you will not get ripped off As far as all the other somewhat child like rants - 1. Denisegold can not be Joe (grammer is far too exceedingly proper for it to be Joe) 2. Azmindreader - By far the most intelligent, concise and level headed post in the lot - I envy your style. As far as me.. I am just some one who considers himself to be a friend of Joe, as well as a friend to many others on this web site, becuase I have been lucky enough to share the one thing we ALL have in common and that is our passion for watches. Anyways, see ya all around!

Good info - Thanks. I couldn't come up with that thread when I searched. I guess the answer to fitting a Gen crown in a PO is GOOD LUCK!

Thanks TeeJAy - Just got a confirmation from my dealer that he will take care of it. Do you know if it is possible to fit a Gen crown & tube?

Has anybody had a problem with the crown on thier 45.5 PO not screwing down and holding? I took the crown out and looked down inside the crown and examined the crown tube (inside & out) and for the life of me I can not find any threads at all! I was looking where one would look on a sub, but I did not see any threads? Any one know whats up or how to fix this problem? It worked a few times then quit catching and holding. Thanks in advance...

High, You can not go wrong with Josh. I do not know for sure, but if I were to guess, I would have to say that his TT certi uses the old case (shollower rehaut, fatter crown guards). This is not to say that it is not a good watch, it is, it is just that it will probably not be his most current case found on the newer version of the TT's out there. Glad I could help a little - I could have gone in to more of the subtle differences between gen TT's and the reps - like type of metal, polished side links, overall weight and the feel of the bezel clicks etc , but that is half the fun of rep collecting - figuring it out for yourself and determing what matters to YOU so that you can have that "perfect" rep

I just recently purchased Josh's new TT sub. I already owned one of Josh's old TT subs and one of EL's TT subs. All three are clearly different watches. I have also compared these watches side by side to gen. Josh's new TT sub (VS his old one) has a deeper rehaut, little better bezel insert, way better crown guards and the solid end link is now fully gold plated to look like gen. (This sub is WAY better than his older version) When compared to Josh's TT sub, EL's TT sub has a thicker case (closer to gen), descent rehaut, crown is bigger than Josh's (both crowns are bigger than gen crown), bezel insert is not quite as good, and the gold on the mid links, bezel and crown on EL's is a darker[brassier] gold than Josh's. (EL's gold was too dark and Josh's gold was too light when compared to gen). Also, the date mag on Josh's is almost spot on in magnification to gen, where EL's date mag is a tiny bit week, however, EL's date wheel is the correct color (kinda an off white) where as Josh's date wheel has two much gold color in the back ground. Additionally, EL's date mag is lined up better than Josh's, as Josh's date mag (as is on all of Josh's subs) is too far to the right. Also, if you get really picky, you can see, when compared to the gen that neither watch has the correct bezel thickness. EL's is closer to gen than Josh's, but both bezels are a little too thin when compared to the thickness of the gen bezel. Also, the gold on the gen bezel is just "different" -don't know how to really explain it, only that if you put all three watches side by side and just looked at the bezels, you would comment every time that the gold on the gen just plain looks better! After comparing the watches, I would have to say I gave it to Josh by a hair. Josh's black TT is better than EL's, but I think EL's blue TT is a little closer to gen, it is still a liittle on the purple side, however. Either way, to get them closer to gen you will have to replace the bezel insert and get it to sit deeper in the bezel so that the crystal hieght is raised (the gen crystal hieght is above the bezel insert about .5 to 1mm - niether of these TT's get this right and it is a dead give away. Also, it wouldn't hurt to replace the crown with a gen crown while your at it. Both watches have a crown that looks like it is on steriods when compared side by side to gen. Now, if your not freaky (like me) about getting your watch to look near perfect and you don't intend to wear two watches, one gen and one rep at the same time, either watch is close enough that it will probably satisfy your desire to have a "Rolex" TT. Good Luck...

Ishann, I purchased what I think may have been the last Conquistador Rep (like the one you have shown) with a black face about two months ago. I am still looking for a white face Conquistador and have yet to find a dealer who actually has the watch. To the best of my knowledge the Conquistador you have pictured has not been made for some time although many dealers still list it. If you find a source, please let me know. I am still looking for a white face version. Oh, and to answer your question - the Conquistador you have pictured above is one of the best, if not the most accurate rep - by far! (All though the black face is a little more accurate because the hands are polished like gen where as the blue hands on the white face rep are a little off) If you can find it - buy it...