collector21

Thank you, gentlemen! (Well, it seems that it's time to go back to that Archimede gen....)

I understand that- maybe an email is needed to clarify prior to pushing the button?

Paul needs to align his on-site prices with the advert he posted here! The web site shows prices that are all over the map, which is confusing, at best....

Does anyone make a really good rep of the IWC Big Pilot?

I agree and can live with the scratches on the vintages, however, if you tap the plastic if feels like a toy. If they are going to do plastic, at least make it 3mm thick. My vintage feels like .5 mm thick, like I could break it by pushing on it.

Okay, now this is actually worrying: Angus gets two-fifty for his Marina Militare--that thin "crystal" is a deal breaker for me. As Chris states, the plastic would be all right were it thick and strong like the original, or at least 3mm thick. I'll only buy the thing if the dealer mods the crystal in the right direction (ain't holdin' my breath...).

Cape cloth does the trick. It did for my bro's plexiglass.

Say, Quark, what is Cape Cloth?

Double dome means that it is like a normal crystal - domed on outside and domed on inside. The version that Paul has with auto is a fantasy watch anyway so would not touch it. The version Angus has is ETA powered (and suprisingly they are Swiss!!), but I would choose the Moljina powered version because it is almost exactly like the old Rolex movt - and that is what I have.

Strap size is 26mm and the length would be 130/85 as it is designed to go around a sleeve.

Much appreciated information, Finepics--thank you!

I read all the replies, but my perspective is a little different.

Thirty years ago, I could have bought a Rolex Sub in the Navy Exchange (store for US military) for about three times the price of a Seiko diver. Now, you can no longer buy them them in the Navy Exchange, because Rolex isn't going to let anyone buy their precious $500 watch for less than $4000.

In this Country, we have a federal law called the Sherman Anti-Trust Act which forbids artificial price controls that serve to raise consumer prices. For example, suppose Admin, Randy, Joe, Joshua and I own the five realestate companies serving SW Florida so we get together over coffee and decide that 6% sales commission is reasonable and we agree not to compete with one another - ladies and gentlemen, that is a crime, and I am describing a well known federal case where that is exactly what happened.

The concept is simple - market controls and predatory pricing strategies that serve to screw the consumer are unlawful.

I make good money, I own an expensive home, some expensive vehicles, and an offshore power boat; I can afford most of the things that I might want and I could afford a real Rolex if I chose to buy one. I do not. Instead, I have a pretty nice collection of counterfeits, and some gens that offer a good value that I am fond of as well.

I have probably invested somewhere between $15-20,000 USD in my collection.

I make no effort to pass my reps off as gens - quite the opposite, my friends all know they are reps, and they know that I buy reps more as a social statement than anything else.

Personally, I hope that Guangzhou Watchworks puts these arrogant Swiss bastards in the position where they have to choose between going out of business, and selling their product for what it is worth. Unless the Swiss have the political clout to get them shut down, I believe that to be inevitable.

I do have some gens. I have a box of Revue Thommens, several Ollech and Wajs including their MIII Mirage, the Seiko 5 40th Anniversary Titanium Diver, etc. - watches that sell for what they are reasonably worth on an open, competitive market.

In sum, the only reason that rep mans exist is because the gens they rep are an exercise in predatory price controls.

Just my .02

Bill

Well said!

Say, Finepics-Master-of-the-Lume, when you say that the crystal in these watches is a "double dome", what does that mean? Are there two hesalite crystals back to back? Oh, and by the way, Paul carries a version with the Asian automatic (whatever that might be), which has a mineral crystal, while Angus has the two-and-a-half times more costly model with the plastic crystal in question, and a Swiss 6497, which he is convinced is actually Swiss. FYI, my British brother....

The MM has a plastic crystal becasue that's what the gen has (don't you know your Panerai history!!!). The fault with the rep crystal is that the gen is a solid 6mm thick whereas the rep is a double dome. Yes the Rolex winding crown does screw down and the Moljina movt is a reliable and accurate workhorse if serviced, and incidentally (how many times have I said this) is a copy of the old Rolex/Cortebert movt that powered these originally - so it's perfect for this rep. Had mine a while now and running fine.

Wow, triplehp, what a stunning watch! Joe has had my Cartier Santos 100 for at least two and half months, but I stand behind him, because I know he's been through a really rough patch. Joe is an honest person, a good guy through and through. And I am so happy to see that he built you a world-beater--enjoy your gorgeous watch when it arrives!

That's a beauty, CG--thanks for showing it to me! The model that I'm considering has applied lume, rather than the vintage sandwich dial. What movement does your watch hold?

I like my MM. I would like a better crystal and I will get one some day. However, these are vintage - thus you do not want a bright lume as that would not be vintage.

here is mine.... These photos are before I distressed the case.

I am seriously considering a Marina Militare Vintage PAM. The thing has one period-accurate drawback: the "crystal" is made of plastic. What do you think of this model? It is supposed to have a genuine Swiss movement, and the respectable dealer who would sell it to me insists that it is a gen-Swiss. Do any of you gentlemen own the watch in question? If so, how good are the movement and the lume? Is the crystal a delicate pain in the a--. Also, does the Rolex logo-etched crown on the non-CG model screw down, or does it merely click into place like any "normal" watch crown? Any comments on the Marina Militare will be most appreciated.

Elegant, intelligent response, as usual, The Zigmeister. The 183H with the bona fide CN6497 isn't long for this world, and when it finally breaks, which will be soon enough, I will send it to you in the Great North for some quality investigation. The wire lugs had to be medium-bond Locktite cemented in place, for reasons we both know, which means that Aaron's superb vintage brown gator will ship with the thing, as well. And if you can isolate the malfunction and provide a lasting fix, know that many fellow members, me included, will be grateful to you for offering a chance to save their investments.

Good point, the fellow who has a Honda that is giving him troubles, is not comforted by the fact that mine has been trouble free for 10 years...

It would be interesting to look at these watches and find and report on the problem, so that it could be determined where the problem actually is.

Is it assembly errors, ancillary parts (crown, stem etc), or the movement having problems...

I understand that it's no comfort to you the experiences I have had on the bench and first hand, I can only report on what I see...remember the Moljina movement, and the rust problems, once discoverd and noted on more than one model, I updated the post and changed my position...

I have been wrong before, never a problem admitting that part, I just hope these are isolated cases and not affecting all units out there...since the initial impressions are good...

RG

I'm glad that you stand by your review, The Zigmeister: proves you are a man of honor. However, two failures out of two is the kind of batting average even the Sultan of Swat couldn't dream of.... This movement isn't ready for the show. And Honda does make great cars! But the CN6497 is the equivalent of GM testing their vehicles on customers--these movements will continue to improve over time. I just don't want to be part of the R&D team at $250 a pop.

Well I don't think one or two examples out of thousands of movements makes for all of them to be bad. I have serviced a dozen or more of these - and so far have been lucky(?) to not have any with problems...not to say there aren't any out there.... There are plenty of examples of many other movements with issues, these are after all mechanical items and as such are prone to have problems.

Your initial problem you identified at the beginning of the post is a crown problem, it's got nothing to do with the actual movement.

As for a great wheel failing as finepics mentioned, they do fail, after all they are under tremendous stress at full wind...stuff happens, but of the thousands of movements being made, is this enough to state that everyone should stay away from these models? If the movements never failed, then why would ETA have such a great parts newtork built up to support their movements???

By comparison I have been getting many ETA Genuine 2892A2 types in that are not working right, they all have a common defect and now that I have seen it, and found a fix, I can get them working again... Does this mean we should stay away from the ETA 2892 series? I don't think so...

It's all relative to your experience. If you have a Honda and it's a POS, your view is tainted, my Honda at 10 years old, is just now needing a new exhaust system - first defect in the car in 10 years of driving - and consider the climate and salt on the roads where I live...so to me Honda is a great car.

As for assembly and quality control and quality of the parts compared to ETA, I can't see any noticeable difference. Teardown a Genuine ETA and you'll quickly see that they are in it for the quantity, not quality...

I stand by my review and initial and ongoing impressions of this movement...

RG

Didn't The Zigmeister give them a good review though ?

He did, and goodness knows, the guy is usually spot-on--but as Finepics stated, the CN6497 is beginning to show its true colors. It sometimes takes a while for a series to break down...after all, assembly quality control and the quality of the parts themselves are just not up to ETA standards.

I own two 183s, a G and an H. The G was touted as Genuine Swiss, the H, as a Chinese 6497. There is no difference between them, except for the finishing on the plates. I submit that there is no such thing anymore as a Genuine Swiss 6497 in a rep: all the hand-wind movements are Chinese, and the luck of the draw will determine whether you get screwed or not (wretched pun intended). One thing is certain, I paid $265 for a POS, and $110 for a second POS (POS #1 is beginning to grind away in similar fashion to

POS #2). Do the math, and tell me which POS you would prefer to own....

Lord Clive: your humility awes me!

Gentlemen: the Chinese 6497 is a POS!!!!!!!! Stay away from these movements--they aren't worth the powder to blow them up.

lol clive i think you didnt read his post properly, because his problem is in NO way related to the threads

the problem is this: when trying to screw the crown on the threads, the movement keeps winding (and doesnt go in the "I'm not winding anymore, because you are trying to screw the crown in" position)

I appreciate your keen understanding, Slay.

The stem and crown have to disengage for you to be able to screw the crown down.

In other words, when the crown is unscrewed from the case, the stem locks to the crown and both turn as one, as soon as you go to screw the crown to the case, the stem to crown are supposed to disengage and the stem stays fixed, and the crown turns independtly so it can be screwed down...

What you describe is that they are NOT disengaging... problem is not the case crown tube, but the stem to crown clutch...

RG

The Zigmeister, you're a prince! Thank you for accurately diagnosing the problem. I have contacted the dealer, who shall remain nameless for reasons of form. Question: is this worth addressing on a relatively inexpensive watch, or should I just hope that the thing keeps running...until it inevitably dies?

this problem has nothing to do with the threads AT ALL!

its a movement/stem problem

Thank you for the thoughtful responses, Gentlemen. And particularly to you, Slay: you are correct when you state that this has nothing to do with the crown itself; this is a movement/stem problem, because the movement is actually still winding (i.e. not disengaged) when it ought to be passively screwing into the blinking crown! Basically, despite their attractiveness, and they are beautiful replicas, the PAM 183s are s--t. Time to acquire an elegant Luminor, as Chronus suggests. Damnit.

Is it remotely possible that this logical post is being willfully ignored...?

Has this ever happened to any of you gentlemen? I push in the stem of my Chinese 6497 and the thing, instead of disengaging and going into the "I'm screwing into the crown now" mode, just keeps making this sick winding sound of gears crunching unhappily, as you screw down the damned crown! Is this sucker already shot? (The watch is barely a month old....) Oh, the thrill of adventure in the rep world!

You are not alone, also waiting on response.

However, it is Labor Day holiday over there in the US this week so possible he's on vacation.

Actually, I just found out that he been having some problems, but is now working to catch up on a huge backlog. He's an honest and reliable guy: you will definitely receive satisfaction. Good luck to you, sir.

I'm worried about you: please check your PMs--I've sent three without response. I need to know that the great Joe remains among the living!

Dealers? Anyone? <crickets> <crickets> <crickets>

That really is an almost fatal flaw with the Radiomirs. One of the reasons to have Panerais is the fun of wearing different straps. It's not fun with these.

Almost fatal because they are indeed comfortable to wear. But I sure don't buy as many as I would if there were spare (and/or better) screws available . . .

Well stated, Tom. We have to find a solution to this problem. There are a lot of members who are in the same leaky boat....

Minor detail: the cross on the Puretime version is crooked. Now this may be only the display watch, but still....

Good to have company, fellows! I particularly understand the impulse to never again change the strap: too risky! My HKTan vintage brown alligator is staying in place come hell or high water.... Dealers must address this issue--after all, these are gorgeous reps, which deserve a reliable fastening system, for goodness sakes!!!! Slightly longer and just a bit thicker screws would make our lives a lot easier. I'm afraid to wear this watch in most situations. I've had the thing come loose on me altogether. And forget about finding the micro-screw once it hits the deck. The respectable dealers on this site have genuine power with manufacturers. It's high time to show some love for us loyal customers.