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Avitt -- I figured you would enjoy the viewing. For reference, here is NDtrading's $400 aftermarket version How many errors can you spot? I count 8 without putting any effort into it. Red color wrong Incorrect crown Incorrect ROLEX font (especially the 'O' in Rolex) Incorrect fonts in the next 2 lines Lume at 12 (should not be there) Subdials & outer ring not deep enough Lower tail on the '3' in '30 in the subdial at 3 should extend beyond the top tail Lower 2 lines (pointing at 20 & 10) in the same subdial should be shorter than the top line

Only the owner (or modder) of the watch knows the origin of the case. I can only guess based on the known sources of aftermarket cases (NDtrading being the most popular). What I do know for certain is that aftermarket cases for these watches are plentiful on the web & the gen watches are not. So, based on the discrepancies, I tend to assume the worst until proven otherwise. I think we will all know more if Ziggy can measure the case & post pictures of the model & serial numbers between the lugs.

Also the case from NDtrading has a plain bezel the ziggy example should be fitted with a rotating bezel, i think!

Dial is $480 from NDtrading right here And here is the $1,100 NDtrading case (click the image for the link) The caseback either came from another rep watch or someone else has a similar case with 6541 markings.

The dial is not a redial, it is a newly made aftermarket dial. Nothing gen about it. Here is the NDtrading 6541 (look familiar?)

The back of the second dial is unmarked. My gen from '78 is stamped Beyeler on the back. Lume is somewhat sloppy, so I'd agree that it looks like a redial, or it's an outright fake. I concur with freddy that the NDTrading dials are new. They refer to them as redials in an effort to stay out of hot water with the Rolex guys is my theory.

These & most of the 'repainted' dials sold by NDtrading & other dial vendors are not in fact redials at all. What they are are new aftermarket dials being marketed as 'repainted' to give them some degree of authenticity, which they do not deserve.

Actually, on 2nd look the 2nd dial looks like an NDtrading piece that may have been relumed, which is what threw me the 1st time. So they are all probably fakes, with the 2nd 1 being the least objectionable.

Michael Young or NDtrading. Definitely not gen.

@mezzanine, I have the bracelet last year from ebay around thanksgiving. @alligoat The movement had a fresh service when I bought it. I still need that Insert, do you have the URL fro NDtrading, I am going to send all the parts to The Zigmeister I want the dial and hands aged that is something I am unable to do. I can replace the crystal drill lug holes, modified crown guards and that is, I do not have a tap tool for the crown I will post some pictures when this bay is complete, it will sometime after march

Genuine insert??? Set of hands- saw some at NDTrading for $100 Also might want to consider a service for the 1570- around $200 maybe Fitting the movement into the case may require a little filing on the side opposite the stem. Other than that, I believe it's a pretty simple fit- up. Especially if you've already installed the case tube. Good luck. Sounds like you'll have a very nice franken for a little over $2K.

I do not know about NDtrading's cases, but it will fit (sometimes, with a bit of mechanical persuasion) either DW's or Phong's case. There are numerous threads in the Rolex forum that describe this. Use the Search.

With the exception of the dial (which, although I have seen worse, looks like a poorly colored NDtrading dial), I agree with the rest of your comments.

I decided that I'd post the answer to your PM in this thread, as it might be useful for other members who are considering the same. I think that this has become a more popular route recently, and perhaps not wisely so once you see the $$ on some of these dials- this is the type of information that is usually only available in the 'supporters only' area of the site. My suggestion is to be smart about what parts you choose to go gen with, as some are not as important to the overall 'look' of the watch. I think you're probably smart to get a re-dial, but keep in mind that it's only you that's going to really appreciate that level of detail. I would go with a red dial, and look for the best possible quality dial for around $300 US. Otherwise you could get a less than perfect gen dial that hasn't be refinished for around $500. It can be a little tricky to find the right re-dial...especially for a red submariner. You'll be glad you went red, though. This dial would need to be sent to The Zigmeister in canada to be re-lumed, which would be indistinguishable from the gen tritium and install, which would add $100 to the cost. The dial itself would be around $600. That's what I meant when I said that it would cost around $700 for a gen white dial. Here's another one that would run closer to $950- these are current prices, btw... Or, if you're feeling ambitious, and want to take a look at a red dial that I believe is ready to go for intall, and is $3500: The suggestions about where to source re-dials are best left to other members. There's more 'art' involved in them. I've got what I believe to be a re-dial on my SD, which was done by the guy at classicwatchparts. There are popular re-dialers like NDtrading and such.

Mezz -- I think the font is too serifed, too 'Western/Wild West'. At least I do not have any pictures of any gen dials with a similar font. And I think the crown suffers the same problem as NDtrading's DRSD dial -- too narrow. I am eager to see how Doc's dial turns out. But after my dealings with NDtrading (I once gave them a list of explicit (and well illustrated) instructions to correct a couple of their existing dials & got a dial with a different set of problems that did not exist on the earlier design), I have come to the conclusion that the only way to get one of these vintage dials done right is to either make it yourself or have it made by a local professional, who will allow you to participate directly in the design/manufacturing process. With Asian dial makers, it always seems like a case of 2 steps forward (more or less) & 1 step backward. The consistency of their inconsistency continues to beg the question of whether the rep makers have agreed not to produce any truly perfect replicas in exchange for a mostly hands-off policy by the gen companies lawyers. More & more, that is the only explanation that makes logical sense to me.

hahaha Only money.......... Someone (I cannot remember who -- KKS maybe???????) managed to get a 1575 into an MBW DRSD case without any serious mods required other than to carve out the semi-circular area on the inside of the case (nearly opposite from the crown as on the gen cases) to fit the 1575's locking screw. I wish I could find that original thread, but I remember he said it went in without any serious problems & everything lined up just as it should. I would expect that anyway since the MBW case is known for its dimensional accuracy, which is why it accepts so many gen parts without modification. But I am still undecided as to whether or not to upgrade the movement. On the one hand, if the dial looks as good (or better, as was the case with the NDtrading dial) when I receive it as it does in the pictures, it may be hard not to go all the way with this one. But on the other hand, the new dial is not perfect & the DRSD is not a grail watch for me (even though I have come to appreciate it much more as its appearance has improved with each successive mod). But my decision-making is definitely being affected by all of the comments from you guys. So please keep them coming.

The printing quality of the NDtrading dial is far better than the MBW, but the MBW ultimately won the battle because even though its printing was of poorer quality (to view the word 'ROLEX' an MBW dial through a loupe will make you sick) its overall appearance was closer to a gen. Basically, it came down to which was less noticeable -- the NDtrading's too narrow index markers & crown, or the MBW's poorer overall printing. With some reservations, I decided to stick with the MBW and continue to search for a better dial alternative that I could live with. I believe this new dial is that better alternative. While Rolex obviously did not have access to laser-quality printing equipment in the 70s & early 80s, their dials were printed with good quality paint and, in most cases, paint that was applied fairly thickly, at least in contrast to the paint & painting techniques applied to MBWs & most other rep or repainted dials. This Daytona 116520 hand comparison will give you an idea of the type of quality differences I see between paints used on reps/repaints & gens. Ignore the fact that the gen hand (left) is the wider (newer) version & the rep hand (right) is the original narrower version Note the thickness, glossiness & quality of application of paint on the gen vs the thin, matte & poorly applied paint on the rep. Now these are both modern parts, but the differences in material & application quality you see here are similar to what I see (through a loupe) when comparing a vintage gen dial (in good condition) with most reps/repaints. The paint & application quality on the NDtrading dial was so much more like what you see on a gen that I had to could not help but to take that into account when I was comparing it to my MBW. But, like I said, in the end, even though the NDtrading dial was a much better quality, it just had too many obvious flaws in its execution, which left the MBW looking like the better option. But it was a tough call that I hope will be much easier if this new dial is of NDtrading quality. Does that make more sense?

What did you mean when you said that you weren't sure if you would replace the MBW dial for the NDtrading one? Because I would've assumed that the NDtrading dial would've been far better than the MBW dial. I am guessing I haven't been giving the MBW dials their proper respect. I think I have made the mistake on occasion of assuming that the reps of older dials like the DRSD should be similar to dials that were produced close to 20 years later...and as a result, assuming that the rep dials are of poor quality, when in reality they're accurate reflections of the earlier, less finished looking because they were made using older technology at the time, etc...

Mezz -- Aside from the notable errors it contains, the NDtrading dial is VERY well done. In fact, I was quite surprised when it arrived & I was able to view it through a loupe. The printing quality is quite passable for a gen. If only they had put as much effort into researching what was supposed to be printed on the dial as they did in how they applied that printing. It was so well done that I had quite a bit of a time deciding whether to replace my MBW for the NDtrading dial. But, in the end, I think either Avitt or Alligoat convinced me (correctly, with hindsight) that the MBWs sins were the lesser of the two when you consider the overall impression each dial leaves. And I will know better once the new dial arrives & I can view it through a loupe. If the printing quality is similar to the NDtrading dial (and it looks that way in the pictures), it will definitely be replacing the MBW. I am still not sure about whether to clip its feet though. Maybe I will place a few low bids for 1570s over the next week or 2 & see if I get lucky. If so, I will go that route. Otherwise, I think the new dial with the old 2846 will certainly provide a nice improvement.

Freddy, we're on the same page with regard to the dial issues of the MBW. It's ironic, because you have some true artists who are great at doing vintage lume work and aging the dial- and you end up with a tremendous looking dial. That's the thing- the age effects are awesome, but when you actually look at the dial closely, it has serious flaws. I don't think a lot of people are very concerned about the smaller imperfections....or they haven't seen a genuine dial or a re-dial of this quality. The patina of the genuine dials are hard to get right. If you look at the dial you linked to, the patina is really flat and doesn't show the type of macro level variation in texture that you see with the gens. You're right, that crown is too thin. I still think it's better than the MBW coronet, which is unrefined and looks poorly defined. It's hard to say because there is so much variation. I might like 'O' on this dial better than the one on the original dial in question. The 'Rolex' spacing on this seems wrong to me...too condensed together. The font below the 'Rolex' is wrong, as far as I can tell, but again, I could be wrong. The dial itself looks to me like a rep dial, rather than a good re-dial. It has the manufactured type of features of a generic dial finish/texture as well as the classic red replica colour/font that is used on all of the vintages...even though it's NDtrading. The red is sort of a blood-red put straight onto the black dial background. The gen red looks like a cherry red paint, and it looks almost like they do a layer of white as a base coat before the red gets applied. The bottom couple of lines look like the right font to me, but the spacing is questionable. If you get a chance to see a gen dial, and I'm assuming this applies to the older DRSD dials (which is not necessarily a fair assumption), but the quality of the print on the dials is really high. It's hard for the rep makers to get that right, as well as they might do some of the more tactile details like fonts and colours, but getting the fineness of detail that the genuines have is practically difficult...as I think Rolex intended it to be.

Mezz -- I agree with you on all points. The thing that has kept me from doing much more on my Double-Red are the limitations & basic problems inherent with the MBW dial. The line about trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear comes to mind here. No matter how much or how well you mod the MBW dial, the underlying problems remain (and work against you). Obviously, the seller of this dial did not make a one-off, so I am sure we will soon be seeing more of these dials either from the same seller or the usual other sources. I did check NDtrading's site to see if its one of theirs, but they are still showing the same dial I got previously which, although well done, has 4 fairly serious flaws (and some smaller ones) that prohibit it from serious consideration in my book (ranked in order of importance) 6 & 9 index markers too narrow crown too narrow slightly incorrect layout of lower 5 lines (it is not that far off, but I cannot match this exact layout to any gen) uneven spacing on words like 'CH RONOMETER' (oddly, I have seen this same spacing on a number of other redials, so they must be using the NDtrading redial as their reference, which explains alot about why there are so many bad redials hanging around) (This is the NDtrading dial, not the one under consideration & pictured at the top of the thread)

That is what I think too. They got the crown, date window & lower 5 lines of printing almost dead-on (except for the red color, which could have been a shade darker, but still closer than the MBW). The dial background texture & color also look correct for this vintage. And unlike the NDtrading dials, the index markers at 6 & 9 are the correct width. I would have preferred a more whitish lume color, but I could live with it as is. All in all, I think this is a huge step forward. Not perfect by any means, but the 1st redial or aftermarket dial I have seen that could almost fool me or pass as gen upon close examination if I saw it in a watch that otherwise looked gen. The question now is whether to chop the feet & fit it to my 2846, or go all-out & get a 1570 ($1,200 or so) and do it up right?

Yes, he has a number of new items, but all of the dials look like NDtrading. I asked him at one point if he would be willing to sell one of the 1665 casebacks separately, but he wanted $450, so I passed. Maybe if we could put together a group buy for 10 or 20 casebacks we might be able to get him to price them realistically? There are some other more minor differences between the MBW & Vietnam 1665 cases (most notably, the size & location of the lug holes are more accurate on the Vietnam case), but it is the caseback that sets it apart from the MBW. Like the gen, all the fonts on it are the correct size/style & in the correct locations. And after the dial, the caseback is the next most obvious shortcoming on the MBW, even when filed/sanded/buffed to perfection the MBW caseback still looks too modern & lacks the gens convex shape.

I had tried a month or so ago. Like you say, NDTrading type dials which aren't my favorite. But the cases could be another matter if they are reasonably priced. But I did notice that Phong has expanded his selection recently- like a 6238 dial.

I have never tried to contact him, but I have browsed his site before (I like the web design). He is selling NDtrading dials (not bad, but I think the MBW dials contain lesser sins) without prices, but everyone seems to sell them for about the same price, or close. Some of his watches look pretty good. But like with Phong, you have to assume that they are put together with aftermarket parts since he sells them. I see that alot of the links on the site return errors. When did you try to contact him? Maybe he is not doing business anymore?