SDF007 Posted May 26, 2014 Report Share Posted May 26, 2014 Hello, I'm new to the rep game and learning heaps. I am absolutely hooked on Panerai watches. Don't know what it is, but there is something about them that sets them apart from other brands. In the last few months I took the plunge & have purchased the Pam 111 & 212. Very happy with both!! With my next purchase I am considering either the 292j ceramic or 386 DLC. I like both watches but was hoping whether somebody could provide some advice. My question is not where should I buy from, or which is a better watch, but instead, which is better in relation to the quality of materials used. Are there issues with the ceramic casing of the 292. Will DLC on 386 wear away or easily scratch, especially around the CG? What is the difference between DLC & PVD? I was hoping someone could share their experience with watches using these materials. I have tried searching for some answers but haven't been able to find what I am looking for. Hope you can help...thanks Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mikemcnair Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) is applied much like AR is on a crystal. It is a "mist" in a vacuum chamber and it embeds itself into the metals it is applied to. It's a pretty slick operation if you can see it done. Basically, put parts in a chamber, seal it, and let the process happen. I love the technology. DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coatings are a little different. While applied in a vacuum also, it takes on a different property: as the name suggests, a property that is as hard (and some say harder) than natural diamonds. There are 2 types of diamonds: on a molecular level one type looks like a lattice fence, while the other looks like a beehive "honeycomb" arrangement. When DLC is applied to metal, it actually takes on BOTH molecular shapes, making it very difficult to scratch with anything but itself or other diamonds. DLC is what you will find in 99% of rep (and gen for that matter) timepieces. It's easy, relatively cheap, and the results are an excellently strong resistance to scratching. Now, it's not like superman's cape: if you smash something against it the metal below it will still deform. But as far as scratches go, it's incredible. To illustrate I will scratch the DLC coated divers extension of my Jacques Piccard DSSD with metal, and photograph it. Be right back lol...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54369 Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 (edited) PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) is applied much like AR is on a crystal. It is a "mist" in a vacuum chamber and it embeds itself into the metals it is applied to. It's a pretty slick operation if you can see it done. Basically, put parts in a chamber, seal it, and let the process happen. I love the technology. DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coatings are a little different. While applied in a vacuum also, it takes on a different property: as the name suggests, a property that is as hard (and some say harder) than natural diamonds. There are 2 types of diamonds: on a molecular level one type looks like a lattice fence, while the other looks like a beehive "honeycomb" arrangement. When DLC is applied to metal, it actually takes on BOTH molecular shapes, making it very difficult to scratch with anything but itself or other diamonds. DLC is what you will find in 99% of rep (and gen for that matter) timepieces. It's easy, relatively cheap, and the results are an excellently strong resistance to scratching. Now, it's not like superman's cape: if you smash something against it the metal below it will still deform. But as far as scratches go, it's incredible. To illustrate I will scratch the DLC coated divers extension of my Jacques Piccard DSSD with metal, and photograph it. Be right back lol...... I want to see the photo. LOL so basically DLC is tougher and better right? Edited May 27, 2014 by 54369 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mikemcnair Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 Waiting for photobucket to come alive..... As for the DLC being "better", that is sort of subjective, and IMHO the answer is yes. I have not tested them side by side with similar exposure to scratching, but I would imagine they are close. Simply based on the materials used. This dude did the same thing I did to show the resistance to scratching. I saw this some time ago but it's basically akin to what I posted above. Check this out..... http://forums.watchuseek.com/f7/looking-hardened-watch-why-dlc-rocks-74924.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mikemcnair Posted May 27, 2014 Report Share Posted May 27, 2014 (edited) i used a stainless steel watch pin tool to scratch these, and only used my thumb to rub off the marks. its tough to get the lighting right, but you will get the idea here. all in all, i have no problem deliberately scratching things that are DLC'd because i know they will simply rub off. these photos suck, and although you can KINDA see the leftover from the scratching, it is gone to the naked eye if i used something to "polish" the metal all of the marking would be gone. the marks you see are actually residual from the SS tool! (notice it is shiny sorta) kinda like a crayon on paper. the wax is what's left, but the paper is still fine underneath it. if that makes sense. before with scratch (this was a ton of corcular scratches, although tough to see) ..... rubbed off with my thumb........ scratched todays date in it... ( 5 . 27 ) after rubbing the 5 off with my thumb..... Edited May 27, 2014 by mikemcnair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDF007 Posted May 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 Thanks for your response & the demonstration. Wow! I didn't think DLC was so durable. It's changing my choice for my next purchase.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mikemcnair Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 You are welcome, I'm glad to show the DLC qualities, as it is often overlooked. I have had MANY watches that were DLC'd, from different factories, rep and gen, and they all seam great. Basically, I have yet to find one that wasn't coated well, and highly resistant to scratches. Lease don't get me wrong; they can and will scratch, and not all are created/applied equally, but for the vast majority, they are great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegasvic Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 DLC is awesome for sure, but so is ceramic. Can't go wrong with either pertaining to scratch resistance. Quick question for ya Mike. When you said "DLC is what you will find in 99% of rep (and gen for that matter) timepieces. It's easy, relatively cheap, and the results are an excellently strong resistance to scratching. . .", did you mean the choice of finishing for guys who want to scratch-proof their watch? Because I don't see too many DLC coated watches out there at the moment, online or brick and mortar either, so any info would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mikemcnair Posted May 28, 2014 Report Share Posted May 28, 2014 In all reality, 99% of any rep or gen I have seen has been DLCd, REGARDLESS of it being advertised as PVDd. If you were to ask an AD or TD to explain in great detail the process they know to be "PVD" on any of their watches, you will hear them explain DLC. Does that mean all watches are falsely advertised? Nope. It's typically a miscommunication, so no one is to "blame" per se. Also, the next question is likely "how can you tell the difference?"... This is not exactly easy, but with a trained eye you can spot it, with or without a loupe. The best way I could explain it is DLC looks like toast that has been buttered. PVD looks like the same toast, but a few minutes later. DLC = looks like a coating, ON TOP of the metal/plastic/etc surface. PVD = looks like it was mixed into the molten metal/plastic/etc, and is PART OF the surface. If that makes sense..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegasvic Posted May 29, 2014 Report Share Posted May 29, 2014 In all reality, 99% of any rep or gen I have seen has been DLCd, REGARDLESS of it being advertised as PVDd. If you were to ask an AD or TD to explain in great detail the process they know to be "PVD" on any of their watches, you will hear them explain DLC. Does that mean all watches are falsely advertised? Nope. It's typically a miscommunication, so no one is to "blame" per se. Also, the next question is likely "how can you tell the difference?"... This is not exactly easy, but with a trained eye you can spot it, with or without a loupe. The best way I could explain it is DLC looks like toast that has been buttered. PVD looks like the same toast, but a few minutes later. DLC = looks like a coating, ON TOP of the metal/plastic/etc surface. PVD = looks like it was mixed into the molten metal/plastic/etc, and is PART OF the surface. If that makes sense..... Thanks for the clarification. Haven't had too many black, PVD watches, but I wanted to purchase a Luminox F-22 Raptor, and contacted the dealer about the finish. Luminox got back to me by email with a one word sentence. "At this time, none of our watches have DLC." If that guy is right, it's a shame, because they have some awesome looking watches at a decent price point, and as you said, DLC is not that expensive a process. Maybe it would boost the pricing a bit too much for that genre? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mikemcnair Posted May 29, 2014 Report Share Posted May 29, 2014 Ironically, the F22 is titanium, and is indeed PVDd. This is not a bad thing, just better to PVD titanium than DLC titanium (I BELIEVE this is because of it's relative melting point and softness as a solid. Titanium is a weird metal, it's softer than one would think. I equate it to a "Laffy taffy" candy: you can bend it and it deforms, but if you smack it against something it shatters. Weird properties for sure!!) Frankly, either way that watch is going to resist scratching and be more "black" than "charcoal" to the naked eye. I like that watch!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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