davee5

This is a long post, but it details my first experience finding and exploring the legendary (for good reason!) watch markets of Guanzhou. I just did it yesterday, and what an experience for too many reasons. Enjoy! I had a day off this Sunday after 2 weeks of hard work in Shenzehn and I decided it was finally time to find the watch markets everyone speaks of in hushed tones: The fabled watch center of Guanzhou. Well despite traveling to China for an average of 3-4 months a year I am usually not accustomed to taking mass transport, other than airplanes, as our factories generally supply us with drivers. As a result it took me far too long to figure out how to get my ticket from Shenzhen rail station to GuangZhou Dong (East, I presume) for 70 RMB. Once you get your ticket you go through a small gate & metal detector, followed by joining a HUGE crowd of people waiting to push through a second ticketing gate. There is no discernible rhyme or reason to Westerners used to orderly queues, so when your train's number (T###) flashes on the LED board don't expect lines to move for you, start pushing your way through to the front, then board your assigned car & find your assigned seat. I've been here enough to figure that sort of stuff out, so now that I was boarded and had time to muse, I just had to sit back and decide how much I really wanted to spend once I arrived. And pray that I could actually find the place at all. Mind you I've got about 10 words, max, in my command of Mandarin, so I am not at all conversant in Chinese. Once my train arrived in Guanzhou Dong I made my way to the taxi queue and hoped that my hand written "copy" of Narikaa's note/address for the driver was legible. Apparently I did OK with my Chinese characters since the driver indicated that he knew the place and we sped off. 30 minutes later we passed the main rail station and turned onto the road pictured in previous posts. Indeed it's just around the corner from the main railway station, so if your driver doesn't know the market, just get taken there and walk the 2 blocks (1st right around the post office, left side of the station, then the first major left. It's quite obvious). The taxi driver ushered me out after my 30 RMB ride, and there I was. Let me reassure you, this place is unimaginable, you must see it. I think my jaw literally dropped when I saw it, and I'm not nearly as hard core about reps as most of you out there. I've never seen so many watches in my life, cumulatively. Most are complete junk, but there are hundreds of thousands throughout booth after booth in a dozen multi-story buildings. People from every nation crammed into these sort of indoor super-flea markets/jewlery houses. Nobody is too pushy, it's a wholesale place so it's not like most street vendors who accost you constantly, you walk around and look for what you want before making some selections. I intended to take pictures for you to spell it out even more clearly than other posts have, but really there's no need. The relevant information has been posted elsewhere and it's impossible to capture the scene accurately on camera anyhow, let alone discreetly. Anyhow, like others have said, most of the stuff is junk or watches I don't particularly fancy. Most have cheap-o Asian movements in them of questionable reliability, some obviously feel better than others. The watch I have now has an asian movement in it and while it's served me well it's started having issues, so I was looking only for real Swiss movements, and initially had a hard time finding them. It became clearer, over the hours I spent wandering, that the watches with Swiss movements were always set aside from the rabble, usually in padded cases and propped up on display stands, and otherwise generally better cared for. Yet even then when I would approach some vendors and ask "Swiss" most would shake their heads, and a few would say they were even when it was obvious they were not (bad quality of worksmanship on watch and movement). Eventually I found a vendor with a few good looking models and asked "Swiss" to which the response was a very honest "Not this, but this this this this and this" pointing to different models. It's been said before that most of these places are trying to run real wholesale watch businesses and aren't really trying to rip you off, but being young and white and stupid looking I tend to stay skeptical for my own sake. Anyhow, after looking at a few Panerai I asked if they had any different models with Swiss movements, as they told me the ones they had out on display were all Chinese except for a Fiddy (too big for my wrists). The girl with better english turned to her companion and then off shot the runner to their secret stash while I looked over their catalog of other pieces. A few minutes later she came back with 4 different PAMs for me to look at, 2 of which were very nice. Excellent quality on these 2, a sandwich dialed 111 and 177 with the swan neck regulator, one with the stamped/repeated "PANERAI" theme of 2005 and one with the current Cote' de Geneve. The other 2 were standard dials with painted-on numbers, which suddenly seemed very pedestrian when compared side-by-side with the sandwich dials. All of them had excellent crowns, sapphire crystals, etc. The 111's numbers were a tad large (I think) but the crown is nice and fat (probably also wrong, you tell me once I get pics up). These were clearly the coveted high-end reps our dealers push as their best quality. In the meantime I had asked for a blackfaced IWC GST chrono in Ti. It took their runner about 15 minutes to run down "the last one" of the day, but here it was. Unfortunately it was an Asian 7750 and the buttons felt terrible, minor cosmetic defects everywhere. My job is to be a stickler for micron-level defects, so I'm a pretty picky bastard. The girls mocked me since most people apparently roll up, look at a watch, buy it, and leave whereas I spent about an hour mulling over 2! Anyhow I had never the IWC in person and I decided it just wasn't me. That dial is gorgeous, but it looks like a you've strapped a miniature soup can to your wrist it's so freaking tall. After all their work to track one down they looked disappointed that they didn't have another sale. As far as my other targets: moonwatch, maybe an SMP, I had poorer luck. I had gone towards the end of the day, around 4 PM, and most of these more coveted models had already sold-out of their Swiss versions. This brings me to my first set of lessons: (1) Many vendors share the same stockpile, if you ask for it they will run it down. It's best to find a vendor you like working with, friendly, speaks your language, etc, and then establish your relationship while they do the leg work. (2) Go early in the day. They do run out of popular models and don't stock too many Swiss movements. If you show up too late then, due to the collective nature of the selling, they'll be out almost everywhere. You can't just go to the next booth to see if they have any there. Around this time, as I'm deciding if I want anything else (the Orange PO's looked quite nice, and some Breitlings too), I started to negotiate prices. Well folks, prices have gone up on Swiss stuff since TVT wrote his invaluable report. This has been mentioned before, but apparently the Swiss 7750's especially have skyrocketed in price. Minimum price for an Asian 7750 was 1500 RMB ($200 US) and the Swiss ones, which weren't even available at all, I was told were going for around 4000 RMB ($500 US!). I can't vouch for those prices since there was nothing to negotiate over, it was clear from all my interactions that prices are up. Like others have mentioned the wholesale market has pretty minimal markup and prices vary only about 10% across the board, so I don't believe I was being fed bad info. The Asian IWC was going for 1750 RMB, the PAM005 was 1250 RMB, and the PAM177 was 1600 RMB at initial offering. Eventually I pushed them down to 2600 RMB total for both the 005 and the 177, but I feel kinda dumb for having 2 nearly identical watches since this isn't really my bag just yet. I'm sure I won't mind in a little while, but I feel like an Omega and a PAM or even a rollie (which I do not covet at all) might have been a better mix. Hell I hated Panerai up to a year ago, suddenly I have 2? After we settle on the price I pay my fat wad of cash and everyone is happy, though I'm a little dumbfounded by the whole experience and expect if I do it again I will be much more savvy about the whole thing. But that's true for any endeavors, so for a first pass I think it went fine. $340 for 2 gorgeous pannies isn't too bad in the scheme of things. My new step-uncle is gonna be [censored] when he compares his brand new gens to my reps. Ha, I look forward to that. While that's all the watch buying action you guys are going to get, here is where the real story begins. I did a real stupid stupid thing when I paid for those watches, and let me tell you that when you're in a country that;s generally unfamiliar and in which you don't speak the language, you should not do stupid things. I paid with nearly all of my cash. Since prices were higher than anticipated I had not brought enough reserves, blowing all of my 100 RMB notes. Only after I'd left did I realize I now only had 27 RMB, not even enough to get a cab to the train station let alone the 70 RMB train ticket of the 30 RMB ride back to my hotel. CRAAAAAAAAP. So I start walking to the main railstation, just around the corner from the watch zone, because I know ATMs hang out near such locations. True enough a few China Post atms are next to the plaza which is brimming with people. Yet after 5 tries it is clear something is not working. Perhaps the withdrawl day has not reset and I'm still maxed out on withdrawls? Let's see if I can buy the train ticket from the main station (instead of East... No.) using a credit card. (also no). Well now I'm really hosed. I try the ATM a few more times and then get on the phone with my bank. Card is still active, no holds, but might it be maxed on the daily withdrawal limit, they can't tell. I can use my bank issue credit card to get cash right? Probably, but you have to call the credit line. I wade through the phone tree again... Hi, I don't have a PIN setup for my card yet, but I really need cash right now, so can we do that on the phone? Sorry only online or if you call from your official phone number. Ummm... I'm kind of in the middle of a large, bustling, filthy plaza in China... Too bad, that really sucks but our hands are tied by the system. Good luck. I call back to the banking line (separate from the credit line, through the phone tree again) and try to increase my withdrawl limit. No problem! Let's boost it to $500/day so I can get out of this mess. Ok good, that's done, now please wait 5 minutes and you should be fine when the computers cycle over. I feel brilliant for having outsmarted the system. It took me too long to figure out, but now I'm in the clear for sure. 5 minutes pass, try the ATM again... Nothing. 10 minutes... nothing. [censored]. Now I start to get nervous, it's getting later and later and the chance the last train to Shenzhen might leave w/o me is more and more real since I don't know the schedule. So I go search for different ATMs, maybe these just won't synch with my bank. I head into the subway, find an ATM with different symbols (incl VISA) and try again. No withdrawls available, I can only check my balance. That does NOT help. Now I'm getting more nervous, which I usually do not do when traveling. This is because in my experience with travel if you have money you never need to be too nervous as you can pay your way out of anything, but I have no cash the locals will take and now I'm much more vulnerable. And stupid. Did I mention stupid? Those 2 fake watches in my bag are now looking like one of the dumbest purchases I have ever made... need another ATM... I get back to street level and find a Western-style hotel. Note to rookies: most Western-oriented hotels in China have an ATM which will sync up with major banking/credit lines to cater to their clientele. FInd the ATM, push my card in... PIN... ask for 200 RM. It's a modest sum but enough to get out and maybe low enough to be approved. Whirrr flipflipflip ... HOORAY the sound of money being counted! Flip... bzzzttt, 200RMB and my card back. I have never been happier to get cash from an ATM in my life. I feed the card back in and get an additional 800 just to be safe and march out. Now I am certainly the smartest traveler ever. Forget that it's my own stupid fault I got into this mess, I found my way out of it. I rock. It takes me a while to hail a cab that will take me across town at 9:30 PM, as most seem to want to stay local, but I get one who gouges me for 50 RMB (should be about 30 if the meter is running, but for that extra $2.50 US I don't give a crap, I need to get out soon). When I get to Guanzhou Dong Station the lines are HUGE for the Shenzhen train tickets. I pop in back of the second line. Another note to China rookies: never get in the first or last lines (on the sides) as they are the most cutting prone and many Chinese are shameless about cutting in, always head for the middle ones. I tap the Chinese guy in front of me on the shoulder ask "Shenzhen ma?" Hoping this means what I think it does. "Yeah, going to Shenzhen." he replies in a light accent. Surprised at his English I thank him, but a second later he adds "but they might be sold out." Whaaat? No no no, I don't need any more of this crap tonight, I've paid my dues for the day. There are still like 40 people in front of us, yet people are still walking away with tickets so I think maybe he's just paranoid. After a few more minutes he gets to the window and I'm on deck so I pull out my 70 RMB. Suddenly he whirls away, [censored], and mutters "sold out" to me. Immediately the lady behind the counter slams the window shut and gets on the intercom to announce all tickets are sold, even for later trains. No more rides to Shenzhen. Panic, shouting, and general mayhem breaks out in the station. Luckily I am like a big sheep at this point and have followed my new buddy out the second he bolted, so I am not caught in the crowd and the ensuing melee. "So... how do we get back? Can we take the train to Kowloon and then another one to Shenzhen?" No those are sold out too, he's headed to Hong Kong to go home and they sold out far earlier. No buses, either. Out of nowhere a lady flags this guy, who I'm obviously just straight-up following without an invitation, and offers him a cab ride back for 400 RMB, steep locally but about our only option. "You want to share a cab? 200 RMB." Hell yes I do. So we follow random lady and her boyfriend a few blocks to where she has already contracted one of her friends to take clients into SZ. Apparently she gets paid a small finders fee of 80RMB by the driver, and then we pay the driver 400 RMB for the trip. At this point paying $25 US for a 90 minute cab ride is a steal so I make no complaints. My buddy and I get to chatting and James, my new savior, informs me that there are 2 huge trade shows that weekend in Guanzhou and all hotels are full, including the saunas and massage parlors that let you stay overnight if you pay for it. We are lucky to have gotten one of the few cabs available by getting out when we did. I am now officially lucky AND stupid. We chat the whole way back, having a good time. His fluency in English and Cantonese is invaluable as he asks the driver to slow down and take it easy on the freeway, etc. Halfway over he tells me he took me along not only for splitting the fare, but also as extra muscle in case the driver was setting him up. He advised me to always take a companion, even if it's a relative stranger, along on those sorts of gray market/tout rides is at all possible. Its not too common to get into trouble, but being paired up (especially with a 6' 2" not-too-scrawny white guy) provides a nice additional layer of safety. When we stop for gas I buy him a Coke and a Snickers bar, for which he is far too grateful considering he straight-up saved my ass. 90+ minutes later end up at the Shenzhen railstation so he could catch the MTR back to Hong Kong, while I caught a cab to my hotel. Getting in before midnight I considered myself very very fortunate, and not a little wiser for it. I no longer rock, I am just humbled and grateful for God's providence and a kind stranger. Also I have 2 spiffy watches. I think I shall name one James, perhaps the 177 on my wrist right now. So, the Cliff's Notes for next time: go early, find a good dealer, bring more cash reserves, buy tickets ahead of time, and always attach myself to kind but street-wise travelers who are fluent in multiple languages and intimately familiar with all the local cities.

I don't plan on documenting the shops so much as the visit. Namely how to get there, the signs, maybe some booth numbers or names, perhaps if they are cool with it a few shop-shots. I work in hi-tech mfg, I know how sensitive some businesses are to cameras being present. The shower, yeah... literally 10 seconds. I had just come off 2 redeyes in a row, hopped in the hotel shower and noticed it was still on my wrist. Immediately took it off and it was already completely fogged. Lucky for me (sort of) this thing is such a sieve that I opened up the crown and let it air dry out overnight. Never got any dreaded drips or recurrence, totally aired out. PO maybe, I used to be a sucker for breitlings from print ads until I saw one in person, too damn busy for my tastes.

So I've been lurking around this board for about overa year now, waiting, watching, learning, being awed by the walking/posting encyclopedias that some of the members of this board are, and it's time to make a move. It started out as an interest in mechanical watches, now thought of as "real" watches, and a learning exercise. But then I've beensucked in (though not so deep as some of you), especially after the bizarre eventthat transpired about a year ago. I've been traveling to China for work very very regularly. I was in factory where one of the line managers had a different rep on every day, and not rollies, I'm talkin' Panerai, HBB, IWC, Vacheron, Jeager, etc. Some of them horrible horrible fantasy watches, but still ticking and still lovely in their own way. One day I pointed to his wrist and tried to mime how cool his watches are. I managed to determine he has a buddy who owns a watch shop and he gets his at price. When I asked him if I could see him the next day (I was leaving shorlty) he gave me the PAM-fantasy right of his wrist! He refused to be compensated saying, in English "Now friends," before he walked away. Now this thing is horrid, not even remotely close to any real PAM models (dual time, blue face, flying bridge "tourbillon", automatic, serial # 000000, etc) but it's never left my wrist. I've beat this thing to hell and back, it weighs a ton and has a power reserve of about 6 hours so it needs constant resetting, fogs up in the shower, etc. Despite this I have fallen in love with it, like the not-too-ugly girl who's nice to you, even though you lust after the pretty b*tches in class. Idiots regularly praise my taste for wearing Panerai, and those in the know love the in-joke of this monstrosity. But more importantly for me, it has become my first mechanical watch. Seeing the jeweled escapment beat all day, feeling that flywheel spin, it's become intoxicating. So now it's time to step it up and take the real plunge into some decent quality reps. Lately have been spending and inordinatley large amount of time in Shenzhen, a hop skip and jump away from the Guangdong watch markets I've been reading up on, and I plan on making a run in a week or so. So here's my deal and a few questions. I'm looking for 3-5 timepieces: an IWC GST Chrono, an Omega moonwatch, perhaps a SMP, and a PAM005 or 111H. I think I'll do OK as my previous experience, as noted above, has not made a me a stickler for perfect reps. I have thenumbers of some stalls, the ballpark prices, and plenty of haggling experience from other trips. But there are a few things I don't know: 1. How much of a discount can I push for if I buy more pieces? 2. How can I tell if the movement (I'll be pushing for Swiss) is in nned of service or not? Any tells for an eye which is sharp but untrained? 3. Is there any interest in my trip being thoroughly documented? Something of a walkthrough of my experience so others can try too? 4. Should I expect any kind of presentation at the stall, like individual boxes, or will they just pull these lovely swiss-driven reps out of a bag or drawer? 5. Should I try to break this up over several trips to avoid customs issues? I have taken looooots o non-bulky stuff back with no problems, so I'm not worred, but I thought I'd put it out there. 6. Anything else I'm too stupid to know I should even ask? Anyhow, I'll be doing lots more digging around this week in preparation for my excursion and once I make a purchase I'll share with you all. -D5

New arrival Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 3-April 06 Member No.: 1,284 My roomate is very interested in purchasing a Omega SMP blue, im eventually gonna pull the trigger on a PO, but ive read in some places that the omega smp's are not as good as they used to be. as anyone purchased one lately from a dealer? there really hasn't been any talk about them in a while. any advice about where i should purchase my friend's watch? thanks a lot -mike davee5 Today, 04:57 AM Post #2 New arrival Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 3-April 06 Member No.: 1,287 I would like to second this question since I've got an SMP itch that needs scratching. By-Tor's recommendations say to be careful about getting "Old Stock" SMP's but I wonder if that was written a while back. I've noticed that since that time all the images I've seen in the dealer's albums show things like the 5-link band instead of the 3-link that seemed to have been connected to the inferior replicas. Does this mean the current "New Stock" is up to snuf (save the bezel alignment and He valve placement)? Can we buy with confident impunity from Silix or Eddie or TTK or Joshua because we can expect that they all have watches from the same sources? On a related note I regularly need to time things for my work in manufacturing and covet (read think I can justify) a chronograph. I've been eyeing the classic "Moonwatch" but I love the look of the Seamaster Chronograph. Does anyone make a rep of that model (model 2599.80)? Last related question: I've been traveling to China, Shanghai area, very regularly for 2-3 week stints. Would I get faster delivery by shipping to China? I know from experience that I can get through customs very easily by walking, perhaps easier than a package would. Do any dealers deal with China easily, or perhaps out of Shanghai? Thanks for dealing with the smattering of queries!

I would like to second this question since I've got an SMP itch that needs scratching. By-Tor's recommendations say to be careful about getting "Old Stock" SMP's but I wonder if that was written a while back. I've noticed that since that time all the images I've seen in the dealer's albums show things like the 5-link band instead of the 3-link that seemed to have been connected to the inferior replicas. Does this mean the current "New Stock" is up to snuf (save the bezel alignment and He valve placement)? Can we buy with confident impunity from Silix or Eddie or TTK or Joshua because we can expect that they all have watches from the same sources? On a related note I regularly need to time things for my work in manufacturing and covet (read think I can justify) a chronograph. I've been eyeing the classic "Moonwatch" but I love the look of the Seamaster Chronograph. Does anyone make a rep of that model (model 2599.80)? Last related question: I've been traveling to China, Shanghai area, very regularly for 2-3 week stints. Would I get faster delivery by shipping to China? I know from experience that I can get through customs very easily by walking, perhaps easier than a package would. Do any dealers deal with China easily, or perhaps out of Shanghai? Thanks for dealing with the smattering of queries!

Technically already made my first posts today in the Omega forum, but I figured if I'm going to come out of the shadows after lurking for a month I may as well announce it! Gotta say this place is an incredible resource and wealth of information and (mostly) friendly responses. I came across this forum while trying to learn about mechanical watches after I decided that as a mechanical engineer I should stop strapping quartz to my wrist and move on to something more personal and visceral. The result of my initially breif edification has been spending far more time here learning more about timepieces than I would ever have expected. Definitely gearing up for a new purchase and hoping this doesn't become yet another expensive hobby of the "just one more will be enough..." sort. Catch you all around. -Dave P.S. Kilnk's intro email is ridiculously helpful. I didn't even notice I had received it until after spending 2 weeks here trying to corral all the information that was already compiled and waiting for me. Doh! So the rest of you newbs, check your inbox.

Hmmm.... too easy! Does this take a significant amount of force? It seems like it would be a bad idea to design a watch whose bezel was too easily removed. Thanks for your help, whenever I get around to putting an order in I won't be worried about the bezel anymore.

So I've been lurking around the boards for about a month now and I've finally mustered up the courage to ask a few potentially noob-esque questions. I've been eyeballing a blue SMP for a while and it has officially outranked the "moonwatch" speedy on my list of future purchases, but I'm left with lingering questions about both of these models. The SMP's tend to have the bezel alignment issue and the speedys have the errant 6-o-clock subdial which needs to be frozen, but I have been unable to find anywhere how these things are done. Joshua has a beautiful non-Bond SMP (I don't go for the official Bond versions, I mean his certainly doesn't have his codename all over it, right?) which has the bezel alignment issue, while Neil has an "aligned" version available. If I pick up a watch from the venerable Joshua how do I get my bezel realigned? Is this a DIY modificiation, do I go to a local dealer/repair shop, or do I ask my seller to do the mod for me before it arrives? All these posts keep showing watches that their proud new owners have modified to be more accurate, but nobody seems to go into the details and I'm pretty mystified. Finally a truly truly newbie question. As a mechanical engineer one of the primary draws to a mechanical watch as opposed to a super-accurate quartz piece is the prospect of have a beautiful precision built machine strapped to my wrist. As such I'm inclined towards display backed watches so I can watch all the beautiful gears mesh their tiny, sexy involute profiles in their shiny red jewels when I get bored at work. Does anyone sell a SMP with a display back, or is that just sacreligious non-sense? Thanks in advance for being nice to the quiet new guy!