zetterdawg

i feel like speaking up here. posts like this are the very reason why dealers are hesitant to post on the boards. they try to provide updates & details and what do they get in return? somebody from across the globe telling them that they are "getting screwed" because they think they know the way these things work.

@zetterdawg, i understand what you're getting at (ie. large customers have buying power and should be able to get price concessions), but who are you to tell the dealers here they are getting screwed? maybe you should offer go to china as a consultant and tell them how to run their business?

kudos to angus for letting the board be a part of making these watches better and keeping us informed about new developments, etc. hopefully he'll continue to do so, and do what he can to convince the maker that he will sell more watches and in the end make more profits if he lowers the prices on these high end replicas.

i respect angus and the way he does business; i don't think he needs us telling him how to do his job. like angus said in an earlier post, it's in his interest as well that these new replicas be reasonably priced -- that way he can sell more and make higher profits too.

deltatahoe

I agree the comment was somewhat flippant. I also don't have any experience in the business model of the rep world. I apologize if I've hurt any feelings.

What I do know is in life almost everything is negotiable. There are very few things you can't negotiate some sort of deal on. As you buy larger $$ values and more inventory those negotiations become more prevalent. It's just plain easier for a manufacturer to deal in larger volume with a limited number of buyers than split those sales across a lot of small volume dealers. That's why I find it extremely hard to believe that buying 20% of a manufacturer's stock won't trigger some sort of volume discount.

I'm not going to apologize because I've purchased a fair number of watches and have NOT received what was advertised. Superlume, swiss movements. A whole lot of rubbish.

I have no issue with Angus and I think he's been doing some smart business by involving the community in finding the flaws pre-production. Really, I don't think he would disagree with my assertation in the previous message. I'm NOT going to thank him for letting us help do THEIR jobs. Do you honestly think they can't spend 20 minutes looking at the rep and the gen they purchased and pick out the flaws? I would love to post my work to the internet, have 20 people correct it and thank me for giving them the opportunity. As far as I'm concerned they should be thanking us, especially if 80% of their sales are to the unwashed masses who are benefiting from our attention to detail without offering up any value of their own.

How do we even know the manufacturer is setting the price? I'm not calling anyone out here, but see my previous sentence and look around on the board and see all the discussions on how to keep the dealers from misrepresenting the products. Or do we assume the products are ok to misrepresent, but it's not ok for the business dealers which are infinitely less prove-able?

Maybe the rep business is really americans buying watches in italy, spain, and other parts of the EU (in some countries it is illegal to even HAVE a rep, let alone sell them) and bringing them home.

Maybe more watches are sold in Malaysia (33rd GDP in the world and 27M people) than the US (1st GDP, 300M people)

Maybe this rep uses super duper expensive steel

Maybe this rep has superior lume

Maybe the Asian 7750 movement manufacturer is choosing to squeeze the manufacturers

Maybe wood is really expensive

I could go on for a long time on all the reasons I've heard why this or that watch is going to be really expensive. I choose not to believe it, I choose to believe that the price is set because the dealers believe that's what will maximize their profits. Limited supply (only 4 dealers) and a new product with reasonable build quality can demand a premium price.

People are going to buy the watch at the higher price. We saw a lot of complaining over the HBB but I still saw people post reviews (a lot of bad stuff about quality I might add. That's a watch I will probably never own, but if it dropped in price I would definitely buy. I'm sure there are a lot of people in that boat.

I'd love to see a dealer cowboy-up and say "We're going to charge a lot because it's nice, it's new and we can charge that price and still sell."

Sorry if I'm ruffling feathers, but this is a forum right? We're here to talk about things like this. Different opinions make for spirited debate.

Z

Andrew's correct and it was not us to set the price high but the maker, I think some of you here may still remember I asked for price difference when the HBB is released. I thought the cost of the HBB is a bit more expensive than other Asian 7750 watches. I marked the pre-order price US$318 but finally the price was almost 50% more than I expected and that was why I asked for US$100 more from those who have paid in the pre-order.

If we are taking like 50% of the total production in ONE purchase, we may press the price down a bit but we can only take up to about 20% of the total production in about half a year and we have really nothing to do with the price, I have been talking to the watch maker about the price thing and hope he can reduce his profit and we can buy the reps in lower price.

If you guys are buying 20% and not getting a price break than you are getting more screwed than us.

Z

The other 80% market is the WHOLESALE market dedicated to EU countries, Malaysia, Thailand, Turkey... These are some of the BIGGEST Wholesale markets who move alot of replicas. =)

so the other 80% are from countries that are essentially 3rd world compared to the US? This isn't a rah rah USA post, but I don't imagine there are more people in Thailand willing to spend $450 on this watch than there are in say... um... California - the 5th biggest economy in the world.

I could be convinced for the rep market as a whole there is a good deal of business done outside the US, but for the high end stuff I'm not so sure.

Is the price a lot cheaper for the people in these other countries? Do the wholesalers get it for cheaper?

btw, I'm sure it's a nice watch, no one is discounting that.

a discussion about the correlation between price and number of pieces sold could be helpful....

i realize this is simplifying things a little bit, but here is an example:

scenario 1

price = $450

cost = $250

number of pieces sold = 10

profit = $2,000

scenario 2

price = $350

cost = $250

number of pieces sold = 30

profit = $3,000

this doesn't even take into account the leveraging of fixed costs as you sell more pieces -- in scenario 2, your cost per watch should be decreasing given all costs are not variable. i think the assumption that you could sell 3x of this watch if the price is $100 cheaper is also pretty valid....

feel free to print and show to maker

deltatahoe

ha - I've bought A7750 based PAM reps for $139.00 and I can guarantee the dealer and manufacturer still made money.

I'm guessing the cost to make this rep is between $50-$75. Most of that price is spread across however many they choose to produce.

only 10-20% of the product sells here? so somewhere there are 80-90% of the folks that are into relatively obscure very high end reps but they don't participate on one of the 3 biggest internet forums for that very topic? Or maybe angus means RWG is 10-20% and the other 2 or 3 boards are 10-20 % as well.

I just can't imagine the guy on the street walking up to a stall and buying a $500 rep of an IWC.... Rolex yes, Omega yes, Panerai maybe, but IWC...

I'd be curious as to who makes up the remaining 90%-80% of the market on this watch???

yah - people with $500 to spend on a high end rep of a small market watch that don't really use the internet otherwise they'd be here already.

scenario 3

price = $450

cost = $100

number of pieces sold = 100

profit = $35,000

sorry to go negative but...

I see the buck is officially passed on to the manufacturer. Of course the price is high because it was set by the manufacturer... that happens with other products where they also jack you on the price.

Show me the reasons why this watch needs to be more expensive than almost any other 7750 based watch.

Lume? Nope, it's not SuperLume

AR? We know that ads at most $40 per watch. In bulk it's probably under $20

Materials? Wood is cheap, metal is cheap.

Complications? Nothing above that which a 7750 can do.

Had to buy the original? You can resell that watch and get back a lot of your investment if you were smart in purchasing it.

Attention to detail and Time? Probably not a lot more than any other watch, and the community has certainly helped. Even the darn near perfect Ferrari rep was sub $300

Finally - the market for this watch is the people on these boards. This is not a watch you will see "on the street".

It's a nice watch, but I'm not going a dollar over $300.

again, sorry for the negativity. blah. bad day, bad week.

Any way you could hook up with ubi or whoever did the vintage rolex dials?

I'll talk to him, but I think it's up to D to decide what format he needs. I would do this project with my wife who is a professional CAD designer.

I have but only for a split second as its a LV

LV is a brand that i simply dont like. I hate the ladies handbags because of the crap LV design and i really dont understand why they are so popular.

So basically i dont like LV so even if they release a really beautiful watch but it says LV, i wont buy it.

I think im not alone here.......

I got custom spotted lizard straps made for my wife and I on our LV's. I love it.

as for the BR being too large.... hmmm. I wear it with a 7.25 inch wrist and I love it.

First of all you have a beautiful collection. High quality reps. Good job.

with all the controversy I feel awkward making this recommendation, but honestly the watch that's getting the most of my wrist time is the B&R from J/A.

I wasn't sure I was going to like the watch at all..... honestly I bought it knowing the movement wasn't the best (but I trust J/A will send me a new movement cheap if needed). Once I got the watch it just stayed on my wrist. months later, still on my wrist.

I saw on Josh's site that the rubber B&R strap is coming out. Another plus.

Finally, I'm going to drill my case out and put real hex bolts in where they are drawn in now to make it near perfect.

Can you inagine the profit Davidsen would make if he could find someone who had the bae minimum attention to detail needed to actually do these projects accurately? Wouldn't cost him a dime of overhead extra.

I offered to be that person. I asked him what format he needed the drawings in, but I'm 100% sure I could do a 100% accurate set of dials 177/111 001/005/195/etc

z

Here the shots of davidsen and the gen side by side, sorry i dont know how to make myself clearer but the rep does not look anything like the gen.

1) Why the hell are the numbers green in the rep ??? Look on the gen the numbers are WHITE !!!!!!!!!

2) one of the crucial characterisitcs of the logo models is that they have fatter numbers on the dial, the rep totally misses this point

3) i dont even wanna know how misplaced the "L Swiss L" is ......

....

and yet people over at RWI scream Go Davidsen Go, as if the created a masterpiece....something must be terribly wrong with my eyes...

on second thought the logo is wrong, it's not angled enough. and it's too big. sigh.

I guess you are right.

-O

i hate being right on this. It seems like such an easy thing to fix. The 12/3/6/9 numerals also need to be thicker.

z

I use auto color correct in photochop CS, and it fixes the color cast by the lighting the dealers use on their photos. In the past it has been helpful in determining how yellow or green the lume is- and the actual products I have received have born this out.

That being said, ehat is wrong with the logo??

-O

logo isn't wrong, it's just too big.

Quite a few items about you Neil perplex me, and I'm sure others,... I don't mean to bring anymore drama into

this soap opera however you don't seem to be able to handle the business that you already have,... Fact is, the numerous and

glaring complaints, year after year, board after board regarding your lack of communications skills, strongly indicates that you take money for watches that you don't have, or may never get.

The time to receive some of your watches tells the tale,..

I have tested you, and received quick and assertive e-mails before my purchases where you flat out stated that you did

have watches in stock,.. but turns out that you didn't.

As I had to wait for nine months then ended up taking a subsitute, ever after you posted the watch in question more than once, here on this board. You also refuse to respond to my requests for a refund or status and never will, unless someone

posts their plight on the board, and even then, that is most times a just a delaying tactic, as I soon discovered.

Now I have defended you in the past, and have nothing personal against you,.. however I would like to know how

you plan on changing your modus operandi,.. as we will see an explosion of negative feedback that will bog down

our board for months....

OH NO YOU DINT!

a flanking manuever!!!!

I don't really care what price gets charged for what watch with whatever specs. In that regard, even if some dealers are colluding and fixing prices, market forces will eventually win out. Charge $300 for something that costs $80 to make, someone else is going to figure out a way to make the same thing and sell it for $299, and down the slippery slope to competitive pricing you go. The only way a cartel works in this forum is if the admins are in on the game, and refuse to allow any other dealers to post. We know that ain't true, and ain't happening, so price fixing is a temporary game, at best.

Price fixing will also work if supply is controlled. In a lot of cases only the 4 cartel dealers can get the watches. Thus the artificially high watch prices are held up. Market forces won't win in that case. It is kinda the same thing with AD's. They get access to merch as long as them agree to sell at a certain price.

When folks say "price isn't the issue", I believe they mean if it WAS a fair playing ground where dealers represented the watch for what it was, and a bunch of dealers had access to the watch we'd see price become a non issue as the magic "market forces" would work it out.

Now as soon as you control supply or are willing to lie about what the watch is then your ability to figure out what you would feel ok paying for the watch gets broken.

Look on RWI for a steelfish price post. It's in the loony bin now.

In that thread, Josh, Andrew and Angus all proudly exclaimed they'd fixed the price and had made sure no other dealers would get that watch.

I'd copy/paste the text, but I can't seem to connect to RWI for some reason.

hahaha that was my thread: steelfish price

I bought the B&R.

I love the watch - it's probably one of my favorites if not my favorite.

Do I wish it had the superlume as advertised? Yes

Do I wish it had a better movement? Yes (and I'm crossing my fingers than the shitty engine doesn't give out)

Would I have bought it for $250 knowing it had almost no lume and a crappy movement? Probably not.

Visually it is very close to the gen. That's worth something to me, but I would prefer not to be manipulated into a purchase.

Buyers need to vote with their dollars. Start buying your reps from dealers that cowboy up and tell you the good with the bad about the watches.

The only problem with that is some rep supply is being controlled among 4 dealers (ie the hublot, who else carries it??) Voting with your dollars will help with that. If manufacturers make exclusive deals with dealers that jack up prices and we don't buy them, the manufacturers will open up supply to other dealers. It's all dollars and (common) sense.

Z

yah, that's a genuine FM dial. I did the transplant after I bought the watch with a black face.

Hi,

I was placing an order for the FM rose gold but was informed that the price of the watch has gone up to about USD 2000. Could someone please help me decide or guide me to which one of the two watches is a better rep.. I have heard the conq is one of the best reps but its available only in the silver dial...if someone could give me some input on the casablanca i'd really appreciate that..

Casanblanca

http://www.ttwristwatch.com/index.php?main...roducts_id=1100

Conquistador

http://www.ttwristwatch.com/index.php?main...products_id=640

here's mine in blue face:

I think you know which one I like now

I think Klink changed his post.

I see...so then those $1000 submariners from replicacenter or any other scam site must be much better than those we get here, aren't they ?

clearly the more you pay the better the product.

Anyway - look at the title of this post "... lack of movement pic". This thread is hot on the tail of a popular thread about watches being advertised with Swiss ETA when they clearly were not.

Since one of the big selling points of this watch is the "expensive" swiss ETA movement, people want to see visual proof before they shell out the $300+

Z

Microwave mentality...your getting what you want now for a low price. I promise the paradigm will shift over time. Get good now get worse later

I call shinnenegans on you - you have to be a dealer shill. No one would insist so much that we "buy now" "spend lots" and "you'd better worry because the watches are going to get worse".

Now the question is - which dealer are you?

Is it wrong for me to say I'm not really too impressed with the 1000 ft waterproof "guarantee"?

How hard is it really - it's a simple watch - screw down crown, screwed in back, thick crystal.

Waterproofing isn't magic - a solid design + silicon grease.

When I get a new rep I do the same thing they do - grease and test.

There is no magical machine, multi-hour process, or ultra-expensive material they use. The materials are cheap, and labour is cheap in china. If they are saying the design is the key, even that's not going to be super-expensive and it's all amortized over 100's of watches they sell anyway.

1000 ft water resistence is new to the rep world, but it doesn't really impress me that much.

Take this trend - watches exclusive to only certain dealers to its logical end - the Gen market. Gen's are marked up 1000's of percent because there is only one dealer, so they can charge what they want. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. So along comes the rep market. Close enough and the price feels right so we buy them.

I think we've been too focused on the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" side of the argument.

Z

Exactly. I feel like this is the point that CJVCMC is missing. The issue is not whether $300 is a ridiculous price for a good rep, or what else is out there for the price. And OK, we get you have $308 to throw around, you're a big man. But I don't think any of us should be pleased to see a trend toward price fixing by the dealers.

I'm not anti-Josh or anti-Andrew or anyone else. But I think it's perfectly clear that the dealers just want to get prices up and they're behind this push, it doesn't have that much to do with anything else despite all the misleading talk of "better steel" (I note a dealer commented in defending the price that unlike other reps, the SO is "really" made from 316L steel -- is that supposed to make us feel better, that they've been lying about that too?) Regardless of whether it's understandable for them to get all they can, I'm not really sure why it's unreasonable for us to voice our displeasure at collusory markups. It's not a good thing.

I like what you wrote. It summarizes the conversation nicely.

With Eddie and River out of the hobby, are we going to a 4 party system? If the manufacturers want to limit exposure and potentially liability they may only sell to certain dealers which may result in prices going up up UP.

Are you serious?! ...$308 for a rep that is ohh soo close...and has an eta movement plus...come on....I challenge you to find any automatic watch(not quartz) on the retail market today that would sell for under $300.00 period. If you could find one that has WALMART on the dial you couldnt get this caliber of watch for $300. And we are getting this quality with the right markings of the best watches in the world. Stealing the commissions away from these guys is not going to get us better watches. It is going to wear down the dealers until they throw up their hands and say..."THis aint no fun anymore, I have given these brats so much and they want more! There is no fun in the business anymore"!

$150 at silix prime for the latest version ultimate PO with swiss movement.

That's a damn-fine watch, and I'm pretty sure silix is still making money because even though I'm an idiot I gather they can't stay in business selling things for less than they buy them for.

I think the issue with the superocean is they are limiting its availability to try and keep the price high. That's what the discussion is about.

I don't think we're stealing commissions from anyone, but theoretically they could be charging over 100% commission on these watches.

Some will pay, others will not. Some will stay quiet and wait, others will ask "Hey what's up with that".

whatever.

I dont talk much on these boards unless i get stirred by idiots. Idiots often dont like me.

oh well then, that makes sense to me because I am an idiot.

a huge idiot.

and I stink, I have poor hygene which has led to a situation where I smell really bad.

and I find myself attracted to dead people in *that* way.

and I eat my own toenails.

so I hope you feel better about yourself now.