JuniorNA

That makes perfect sense to me. I think a lot of people "assume" that watch prices are just thrown out there and chosen simply because it landed on that marker when they flipped a coin . I do agree that watches are X2 at AD's because my friend works at one. He states that you are given a certain % to drop off the MSRP, the less % off you give, the more you get in commission, the more % off you give to a watch, the less you get as commission. If you sell a watch at MSRP, then commission is at the highest for that specific price bracket. Some AD's will not take % off a watch for any customer at all, for example, ZENITH will not allow this location to take % off of their watches since they do not sell enough to make a profit with a % off. Perhaps different countries are different, and perhaps some states are different in the US based on what they sell in terms of high end watches...maybe even some stores are different in what % off they can give a customer based on their annual revenue and sales. I fall into the bracket of loving the reps that are 98% accurate and tell accurate time. I'm all for the people that want precision and want accuracy, I am like that with the cars that I purchase or the electronics that I purchase as I am into new technology all the time. For watches however, I want it to be accurate to an extent, and I want the watch to tell the right time when I look down at it 5 times a day . Sure I could buy an eco-drive for 300 and it wont die on me for 5 years, but then there is no fun in that for me. I like to purchase the rep, modify it, upgrade it, fix it, or just enjoy it until it needs fixing, and at the end of the day, i learned about the history of the watch from all the research I did, and I ended up how to fix certain points, or dissect movements and maybe get a better understanding of what i'm buying with every rep that I do buy. For me, that is what makes me stay in this fun hobby...not to try to look cool to people, but to enjoy luxury watches at a lower price, and giving myself a hobby to upgrade it and make it even better, and to learn. BTW, I'm the thread starter for this, lol . The newb that just joined ended up making the BEST thread of 09 so far !!

I dont agree with Dani here with his short statement, I dont think reps suck, and I also think everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you feel that 15,000 is worth it then by all means, enjoy the watch, and enjoy the "you get what you pay for" aspect of it. I'm sure it will be perfect in every way. For me, and to rehash robbies statement on whether the small details matter...IMHO, the fine details don't matter for me. If i know that externally, a rep will look just as good as a gen, including the 5% flaws, then I will be happy to wear that rep. Everyone is different, and everyone leads different lives, I know the way I am, and the way I work....I have been banging my steelfish around like crazy. Every 10 minutes this watch is taking a heavy hit from computers, storage systems, server shelves...etc. If this were a GEN, i would have taken it off, and 4k would be sitting in my drawer because I'd never have a chance of wearing it, hence, no need for the watch and I dont want that. Sure you could say I need to be more careful, or I need to acknowledge the fact that I have a timepiece on my wrist, but that doesnt mean equipment will listen to me as it falls, or moves, or as others are helping me build a rack of 10 servers and need to move the server 10 inches. They will not tell me "Hey jr., I know you have an expensive watch, heads up" LOL. That would just be weird if i told them to give me a heads up in the future. Anyway, for me, and ONLY for me, I think buying the REP is fine, I agree that you do get what you pay for, and in my case...I'm getting what I paid for, because I'm paying 300 instead of 100 on a crappy rep. I'm getting a better degree of crappy rep in a sense. I'm getting a higher end replica, that is a term that should never be said, but they do exist. There are levels of crappyness, from canal st. crap, to watchsir, to a higher end like andrew and pam111. But the point remains the same, i'm getting what I pay for, and I'm happy to do it, i'm getting a 95 to 98% accurate replica ,that no one will question and I will enjoy wearing. The people I encounter in my life will not question its authenticity because where I work and live, watches are purchased, discussed once and never discussed again, its not a volatile area where watches are discussed and mentioned all the time, I dont interact with very rich individuals who are familiar with expensive timepieces, and I dont work in a watch store..etc. Also to share another point, I certainly can afford the GEN's of the REPS that i wear, I just choose not to. I like so many different pieces out there, that I'd be in the hole so much if I went out and purchased only a few of the Gen's I love....so for me, purchasing the rep saves me money, and also gives me the pleasure of enjoying the timepiece, until I get sick of it and give it away, or put it in a box. I wouldnt want the feeling of losing 5k because i'm sick of a watch and dont want to wear it anymore, and i'd end up selling it for much less. I think because my taste changes so much with watches, REPS are the best fit for me, flaws and all.

I see what you mean now TeeJay, and it truly is a hobby in which each enthusiast has their own personal reasons as to why they do it. I think the point you made about giving the history of your watch should someone ask, regardless if it is a rep or not, is very true. You are still treating these manufcrs. with respect and dignity regardless if there is a Gen or Rep on your wrist. I am also like you, I'm a cheap bastard and would rather by the REP than the GEN. But for me, (and everyone is different) its about seeing and being a part of a recreation of an expensive piece, finding its flaws, fixing the flaws, and truly enjoying the modification of it, and naturally, to make it look as close as it can to a GEN. Some people say that buying a rep means "you want to look cool" and I tell them thats not true, mind you I do want to have a nice expensive watch on my wrist for the fraction of the cost, but I couldnt care less if anyone even looks at my watch. IF i never get a compliment for the remainder of my life on what is on my wrist, it will never stop me from enjoying reps and enjoying the hobby as a whole. For me, it all started when my friend spent 2k on a used PAM 111, it has scratches on the front, back exhibition sapphire was scratched (somehow!) and I had a $200 rep right next to it. He immediately started to get [censored] because his overtime, and weekend hours that he worked just to BUY a used one lost all justification of his expensive time piece. He returned the used GEN (had 10 days to return if he didnt like on a used purchase) and purchased the rep and is now much happier, and now has $1800 bucks in his pocket. Also, i'd like to say, someone will think what they want about you having a REP or a GEN before they even see the watch, or have a conversation with you. The few people in your lives, or strangers, that do know about watches, will immediately have an opinion, based on the car you drive, your clothes you wear, and your history (if they know you). If you have a $6k watch on your wrist, and have asked for money for burger king the majority of your life, then its pretty easy to tell that you have a rep, or you hit the lotto and didnt tell anyone But once again, thats only if you care what people think. I for one have a good job, good pay, and having a PAN gen, and a B-Ling Gen is completely believable. But for someone to have a $35,000 chopard and they work in customer service, i'd like to think thats a REP before I even talk to the person wearing the watch. but then again, there I go again casting opinions and judging people :) We've derailed from the original question is "how" the chinese are doing this. How the replication is so on point (for the most part) and since it's illegal there too, how are they having these manufacturer locations and once they get the rep and dissect it and get the first one replicated, is it a matter of just doing it again, does it go through a machine? or is it still hand made like the GEN, but with cheaper parts.

Thanks for everyone's responses so far. I have to say that I agree that a GEN is not chosen based on price, its chosen out of its history, creativity, and individuality in this huge market we love and fear. What I do say, is that I can't justify wearing a 5,000 panerai, when I know A. no one in my life will know what it is, and B. it costs me 200 bucks to get the rep and it feels, looks, acts like the real thing. I cant justify the price at all. and I know you're buying tradition, history, knowledge, exclusivity, but then i'd rather buy the rep, i just dont know why When someone does recoqnize my watch, i'll know enough about it that I will blow them out of the water with my stats and specs, so they will have to assume its real, otherwise i wouldnt know so much right? Its all about who knows more, the hunt vs. hunted, so if you come off knowing more about your piece, no one will questions its authenticity. Now here is the thing, a lot of people will tell you they do it for themselves, they dont care who recognizes the piece their wearing, and they dont care if people stop you and ask about your watch. I do agree to some point that we collectors are not doing it for being noticed, we're just doing it out of a hobby, but then why are we working so hard to get our rep watch to work properly, and why is it such a top priority to tweak it and hack it. Couldnt we just spend 300 bucks on a citizen eco-drive and never deal with clock adjustments again? There is no such thing as "NO vanity" when it comes to collecting REPS, because thats exactly what it is, its us as the collector trying to find the best mimick piece around, and after we get it, we hack it to make it more reliable on the wrist. So I dont know if i believe people when they say "I do it for myself, i dont care if anyone notices", then all of this REP business would have been created for nothing if there were not people like me (admittedly) that enjoy a rep on the arm for nothing OTHER than vanity, and to enjoy a $5,000 watch piece on my wrist for 300 dollars. and TeeJay brings up an awesome point, its not like if we win the lotto, we're going to go out and buy 10 GEN's, and start ripping them apart and using them as toys. its just the fact of owning such a close replica, being able to mod it, and interchange parts with the GEN! Its the fact that we enjoy the hobby more than we enjoy the prices...and after all of this knowledge, we can look down (like teejay) said, and truly said, this watch was 50% upgraded by ME. and if no one notices, who cares, but when someoen does notice, i'll have the knowledge, and my piece will have the looks and guts to prove its point.

OH i see. So is there a surefire way to tell when my watch is losing its power and needs to be wound? Or am i just goin to go with the standard of winding it 30-40 times every 48 hours? Also, is there a way to OVERWIND a hand-wind watch? Should i be careful of anything when receiving it? Shuld i only be winding it a certain amount of times? Will the Asian Unitus truly last 56 hours like the swiss standards, or are we talking 24-48 hours of power reserve?

So we've all been sucked into this rep world as a hobby, or simply by enjoing different watches, and maintaining a reasonable budget, perhaps some of us would rather spend $300 bucks on something that would cost 6,000 to own. Maybe we cant make up our minds, and the thought of spending 3-7k on something we're not completely in love with causes it go get sick in the stomach. So naturally, we enter the world of replica watches. we fall in love, we get hooked, we buy more, we read, and we modify, we hack, we learn more, and after a while, the rep you purchased is just as good as a GEN, if not better, and the feeling you get after realizing the watch you purchased as a rep, does the same thing as a GEN, is nothing short of spectacular. after all, a gen is a gen, but if you're just a collector and enjoy different types of movements, types of watches, then a REP is for you. Of course there a many of us out there that LOVE to have Gen's just to have it. Just to know that a watch that was so individual in so many ways. Each watch has its unique flaws due to their hand-made techniques. Some gens talk 10 months to make, and the fact that you are wearing something a dedicated swiss employee spent 10 months on, i'm sure that feeling is just as good as the REP details I provided above in terms of satisfaction. The question i have is simple. HOW? Where do these reps come from? A manufacturer? a group of guys in a room that have watch training and realize that the same watch you buy for 10k, can be rep'd for 300 bucks? After all, it is just steel, and moving parts. The GEN's are over-charging because of the name, while the chinese have nothing to overcharge for, as nothing is authentic (except when a swiss movement is advertised, technically" I picture a chinese food restaurance in hong kong, and in the basement, 50 chinese men with cigarettes dangling making the same watch over and over again for months, until the next batch of GEN's are chosen to be rep'd. After all, it is just steel and using a blueprint from an original. The parts were rep'd as well and made into asian valjoux but thats a different story. What truly goes on behind the scenes, i've read that these factories are just as illegal in china as they are here, so these places often move from location to location to avoid any legal issues. but has anyone seen, or heard of the true process that goes along with it? I still get amazed that I hold a $3600 Omega PO in my hand and spent 150 bucks for it. Sure the movement wont last me forever like a GEN will, but even if the same watch stops working 3 times and i need to purchase them again, i'm stull under 10% of the gen MSRP...so my interest is peaked when it comes to being able to do the same thing for 1/10th the cost. Same goes for gucci/louis vuitton bags and such, but i feel that these time pieces are so much more intricate than stitching fabric together and giving it a logo of a well known company. If you think about it, sapphire with AR, 317 Polished stainless steel, quality clasp, amazingly duplicated bezel...all of this can be duplicated for probably 40 bucks, not including guts....and that means these manufacturers are making almost a 200-400% markup on these watches. Imagine the markup it is for b-ling, omega, hubelot, tissot....etc. Sure it costs more when 1 guy is making the watch for 10 months, but we are clearly just paying for the name, and the movement, while everything else can be made for under 200 bucks. I'd like to see if we can throw some ideas (or facts) on how these pieces get created, how long it takes, the process, the quality inspection, and basically have some "world of replica" talk. I know a lot about watches, but mainly because i'll find a REP that i love, and read up on the GEN, then read up on the rep hacks, the movements, and find the best rep, not to fool anyone, but to enjoy a QUALITY piece of craftsmanship, but at a lower price. To add more questions as they come, the gears? Made of cheap plastic? possibly less quality, maybe they'll break sooner? are the asian movements made by machines in an assembly line type of thing? are they hand made just like their GEN counterpart. Lets share our stories, and see what we can find out about the great works of REPS and their creations.

I hate to hijack this thread, but I have to respond to you A. to say thanks for answering, and B. maybe andrew just copied that from another listing and forgot to take that out? I have all asian movements too and not the "best" ones. I have an omega PO 45 with A21J which stops when crown is pulled, and SuperOcean steelfish, a21J movement, that stops when i pull out crown, so Im glad I just learned that those movements were modified as well. Thanks. Maybe he means the movement itself was modified, and not the hack that we are talking about? but i doubt it. Thanks. He's awesome, and has really come through for all my pieces, so if he copied the wrong info, no big deal for me.

LOL. I dont know if you were being sarcastic, but to be honest, I work in a building of about 4,000 people...and NOT one of them have ever worn a panerai, and about 99.9% of them have never heard of panerai. So when I ordered the 112, with fixed lever and slight AR coating, I did it to try to fool the .01% at work, and naturally...not one person will question or, 85% will not even notice it, and the rest that do notice, will just say "nice watch". I got the 112 from Andrew due to the slight AR coating since I thought AR would make rep more believable since I'm familiar with the breitling AR coating and thats very importing to a B-ling rep to have AR to come off as gen. The only thing I do question is Andrew states HACK MOVEMENT: Yes and I have no idea with that is. Not too familiar with PAN, or its movements.

does the power reseeve feature actually work on these reps (the one located on exhibition case back) not the one in front like other models

ahh, ok. Thank you. is there a site that shows all the versions of the 111, and 112? I tried looking at panerai source, but was not able to find anything of all the versions.

I thought AR was good on REPS, since GEN's have AR as well? I have about 5 B-lings, and all of them have AR and really come off as GEN's when you see the blue reflected off the lights on the dial. Why dont you want AR on this one? I am purchasing a 112, and Andrew states it has a light AR coating, is that a good thing? whats the deal

Hey guys, I've searched on this and it seems this is very popular watch, lol. I love it, and I really want to enjoy this watch, but only have one qualm/issue. Is the exhibition back the exact as a gen? I noticed on some PAM111 it says panerai throughout the entire casing in the back, and actually looks very cook, sleek, but this specific one i'm looking at does not have the panerai stamp all over the gears, and boxes. I'm wondering if an actual GEN exists with this type of style, or if this is a fantasy piece. I know this is the most common rep'd watch, but i'm just getting into the PAN world after enjoying my B-ling rep collection. So just trying to learn some tips and tricks to how many GEN versions of the PAM111 are actually out there, and if this one in the picture was ever really made .

anyone else care to chime in on these dials?

Yes, that is correct..the top one does have a quartz movement. Do you think the top one w/ quartz ever existed in "gen life" at one point?

Hey all, Just wanted to know if just the photo or description was wrong on this linked item It says chrono avenger, but it seems to have a face of a super avenger, but the size is wrong on the description if it is in fact a super avenger (chrono avenger is 44-45, super avenger is 48-49). Also on a chrono avenger the 10 and 8 are cut off by the 9 o clock subs, but this one clearly shows the 8 in tact. Do you guys think the description is wrong and this is a super avenger? which doesnt come in titanium, or do you think this has the wrong dial on a chrono avenger and can be spotted as a fake from a mile away ?just wanted some of your expertise. TIA, hope to hear from you guys, awesome site. This is the chrono avenger listed This is a real chrono avenger dial. Do you guys think they just messed up the pics on andrew's site and i'll be getting something like the 2nd pic? or am i going to get the hose and get the first one which is a super avenger face on chrono avenger titanium bracelet and casing. Thanks in advance !

Thanks for that. I've been wondering what those subs are for with those numbers, they would be useless at tracking time. If they have never been on a gen, then i will definitely steer clear. One thing to be a rep collector, but another thing to have a rep of a gen that doesnt exist

Hey guys, learned a lot the last few nights reading all of these great threads. On a chrono evo (any year) I'm Wondering if there is a real B-ling out there with a 2-5-7 on the 9 o clock sub dial. I see a lot off 20-40-60 but I did see a few 2-5-7 and I'm wondering if any "gen" b-ling ever had a 2-5-7 on chrono. here is an example from a rep web store, but I cant find the "GEN" with those dials...and I'm not going to order from this store, i'm just using as example. btw, Thanks for the great posts/reviews/discussions and I'm glad I joined...much to be learned and lots of great topics to search through.