lhooq

Can you find a phone more thoughtful? Holding this phone, you must be envy of the crowd. Stop boogling, go and catch it!

Dial suits you, alligoat! Daytona Two-fer:

Is that you, JJ? Cheers - LH

donerix did a pretty good job of aging the dial on one. But if I recall correctly, the bezel insert was mostly untouched. VDB vintagized one FF, and it was the subject of a contentious sales thread on another forum. To be honest, I'm also surprised that there haven't been more modifications on these. Maybe they're too niche-y?

Aagh... I need your reference books! I didn't even know there were documented bezel sub-types!

Leonardo: Very nice! I think I need to add more dirt under the bezel and between the lugs. woof*: Thanks, and I hope your wait will soon be over! It's worth remembering that I spent more time waiting for my SM300 parts to arrive than I did working on this project.

Are any of you Explorer fans bidding on Item#140559100676? That's the "ROLEX EXPLORER 1016 CASE W/CERTIFICATE. GOOD REPLACMENT" Maybe I'm being paranoid, but it just looks off to me. The lugs appear to be too fat, in both height and width. The lugholes appear to be too narrow, and look like they'll take Datejust- rather than Sub-sized springbars. Finally, the bezel is not nearly wide enough. A real bezel ought to shade the crown. All in all, I'd say Yuki's notoriously inaccurate 1016 case looks better. And here's the kicker I just noticed: Is it me or is the engraved serial number crooked? On the plus side, it comes with a COSC certificate that looks genuine enough. Tread carefully:

I'm perfectly happy with the slightly greenish tinge to my lume, but YOW! That relume really makes the hands and dial pop out!

Sometimes black and white just works better:

I think the good points of the cartel's 6239s can be summarized as follows: -More reliable Sea-Gull movement. (Although both of my 7750s are running well.) -Correct spacing of the subdials at 3 and 9. -Comes with a nice crystal. (DW's default crystal is the wrong size and made of a poor material.) -Great endlinks. The downsides: -Subdial at 6 is non-functional and too low. -Quality of cartel dials is generally poorer than DW's, partly due to that oddly-placed hour counter. -Bezels are inferior to DW's: Less accurate dimensions overall; less accurate and lower-quality engravings and insert text. -Indents are too wide for pump pushers. (Cartel uses the same case for pump and screw-down pushers.) Finally, I think the DW cases are more accurate, overall, than the cartel's. The DW just looks more convincing at a glance, though I suppose that can be argued.

Jaime: I'm often guilty of excessive verbosity (there I go again), so I will never complain about someone's long post. You might get dinged for quoting my entire OP, though! It's great to hear from the Peruvian contingent of RWG, and I enjoyed your story. I wish I had the skills to assemble these watches myself, but practice and reading can only get me so far. I just don't have the steady hands and patient demeanor that a proper watchsmith requires. But thanks to RWG, I was able to get in touch with some smart and talented people. I occupy myself with research and sourcing parts, and I enjoy that task immensely. Thanks for the kind words.

The causes of patination have been discussed on VRF a number of times, but I don't think it's been resolved one way or another. I do remember reading one thread in which someone posted a picture of his 50s-era Subs--all safe queens, but with original tritium that was lily-white. There are a lot of factors at play, but I don't think anyone has sat down and taken a scientific approach to figuring out which does what. I was discussing a related question with an acquaintance recently: Why does the the average mid-60s Omega Seamaster 300 looks so much worse (in terms of wear) than the average mid-60s Submariner? Is it due to the numbers produced (more SM300s = more bad examples?) The activities of the average wearer? Or is it down to the design choices that Omega made i.e. push-in versus screw-down crown, plastic bezel inlaid with tritium versus metal insert?

F.S. ROLEX 6265 F.A.P. CASEBACK ONLY Justin only charged me EUR 1500 for the engraving, so I still come out ahead!

Good to see the older brother from Llama Land!

Definitely 6239s, and the standard dials look kinda nice!

It doesn't bother me--I just wanted to know where it came from, 's all! I snagged a 16000 for $66 a few weeks ago, so that's a big piece taken care of. If I combine it with my $18 ETA 2451, I could end up with something cheaper than some rep DJs! stilty: Interesting idea, but it's clean as a whistle from behind. It does look a bit hot around the date window, though:

Thanks, everyone! This build would never have happened without RWG-Rolex and all the clever and knowledgeable individuals here. It was definitely planned with this crowd's discerning eyes in mind! red: So that's how you're going to justify funding a V72 Daytona build to your wife? "I thought you'd like it as a Peruvian, honey?" freddy: I wish I could directly compare a 2nd-series 6239 with a mid-80s 6263. I'm certain there would be more differences than just the pusher/crown indents, and I have a feeling most aftermarket cases were modeled on the late-model 6263s. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble finding photographic evidence to support this feeling! J: I'm always glad to give you a break from fabricating bezel rings! I don't even want to think about a grander project. I don't think my wallet could take another hit like this! mcotter: I much appreciated the advice and insight, which gave me the confidence to set my bid a few hundred bucks higher. I didn't set out to fool people with my preview, but, yeah, Justin's caseback really gave me that thrill a forger must feel! alligoat: I'm keeping those pushers unglued in case I need to make an easy replacement. In the meantime, I'm staying away from anything wet! Thanks again for everything. I hope to return to Texas one of these days and pay you and Justin a visit. (Also, Babe's Fried Chicken!)

thogaa: FYI, there's a long 6263 picture thread here. But I'm going to add to yours. Daytona Pyramid power!

Mo' 'tona:

I'm a latecomer to the vintage Daytona scene. It wasn't until the end of 2009 that I first learned of the existence of a decent manual-wind 6263 rep. On another forum, ChiMan12 had mentioned a $100 Daytona kit, and after some research, I learned about Spinmaster. Spooked by Spin's prices, I did some more research and discovered the source--DW. That lead brought me back to RWG-Rolex, where I learned... Oh, you guys have been at this since 2005! I spent a long time sifting through the archives, downloading photos, bookmarking links, and learning whatever I could about these reps. A lot of those old names are still regular posters today; some have disappeared, while others are taking a break. (I hope... Ubi, come home!) As happy as I was (and continue to be) with the 7750-powered Daytonas, the idea of a Valjoux 72-based franken was very alluring. The catalyst for the project would be finding that movement, which isn't easy when you're located thousands of miles away from most sellers. In the past year, I've had a bunch of near-misses and a couple of big regrets during my search. The biggest of these were a pair of serviced Clebar chronographs that sold for around $500 each. I doubt we'll ever see V72s at that price again, but those lost movements taught me never to hesitate. My original concept for this build was a 6239 with a standard black dial. A 'Big Red' 6263 was my old dream, but DW really raised the bar with his 6239. But why a black dial? It was never my intention to collect nothing but silver-dialed Daytonas. I had wanted a black dial for my 6239/7750, but DW was out of stock at the time. Also, I've long admired Freddy's Honpo 6239, especially on brown leather. I wanted a similar look, and even bought an OEM ostrich strap for the project. Here's a mockup of how it might have turned out. Use your imagination! However, things rarely go according to plan, and a bit of luck turned this build into “Argentona III”. Movement For more than a year, my weekly eBay ritual involved running through a long list of vintage Valjoux 72 chronographs. After all, only chumps would bid on a listing with "valjoux 72" in the header! This wasn't a quick and easy road, of course, and it wasn't until February that I found a re-listing of a LeJour with a very fair BIN price. It turned out that the original auction's winner had bailed, and the seller had just re-listed for a quick sale. With the help of a very good and trusted friend, I was able to pounce on it. Very big thanks to alligoat, without whom I could not have started this project. Say goodbye to the rather nice LeJour: And here is its heart, in all its column-wheely, switch-and-geary, chronograph-y glory: Out of curiosity, I ordered DW's set of replacement bridges. A brief review: The chronograph bridge is actually quite nice. The train bridge is not so good, with poor spacing on the text and a stained-looking surface. The balance bridge is fair, but rough around the edges. They all look terrible in macros, though. In the end, I didn't install any of them, primarily in the interest of reliability. Fixing the movement to the case was a trickier task than expected, and the V72 was prone to shifting around. My watchsmith's first attempt involved trimming the LeJour's movement ring to fit inside the DW case. I was surprised it even squeezed in, but the movement didn't line up with the stem. Eventually, he settled on two clamps (one beneath the balance, one above the column wheel) and a semi-circular shim. So far, so good, as it's keeping good time and the chronograph has just counted 12 hours without stoppage. Case After looking over my available options, I decided to go with DW because his case lists for about a tenth of Jewelry & Watch's 6239. Also, it's a pretty damn good case, whereas Phong's is a repurposed 6263. My biggest problem with the DW 6239 case is what I've often referred to as "The Tumah". (See: Schwarzenegger, A. Kindergarten Cop, 1990.) There's simply too much metal on the crown-side, and it results in a shelf protruding beneath the bezel. This is correct on the 6263, but not for the earlier Daytonas. (I realize there are two versions of the genuine 6239 case, but the second series is really more of a pimple beneath the crown.) Another issue I wanted addressed was the overall pointiness and sharpness of the case. I've had the good fortune to examine and handle a few genuine 6239s in the past year, and one feature that stands out is the bluntness of the lugs compared to the newer 6263s. Some of this "softness" is due to age, but there are significant differences between the two case designs. So I contacted the Lathemaster General, jmb, and asked him to excise the unsightly lump, blunt the lugs, smooth all edges, and give the case a trip to his legendary bucket of metal shavings. In contrast to my previous Daytonas, I wanted a well-used look. Not long before Justin received my case, he had bought himself a nice CNC rig. I was determined to see it put to good use. My first idea was to replicate the first-generation 6239 bezel. (That's a 300UPH with no dots and a lot of radial lines.) Unfortunately, engraving a round, sloped surface would require an expensive upgrade of the rig. Back to flat surfaces, then, and there really was only one engraving I could think of: That of the Peruvian Air Force. You'll have to forgive me for not going into the history of FAP Rolexes, but there are better tellings of that story elsewhere on the web. I sent J a pile of photos and let him go to work. Here, Dr. J administers rough medicine to the hapless DW case: And these pictures should make it clear just how extensive the surgery was. The entire crown side, from lug-tip to lug-tip, was shaved away, moving the crown inboard by nearly one whole crown-width. Missing are the pusher indents you would see on the gen, but this is really a fault of the case. Compared to the gen, the DW case sides are slightly thicker (from bezel to caseback), while the pushers are situated slightly higher (i.e. closer to the bezel). The indents you see on the gen are the bottoms of the pusher counterbores. On the DW, these indents don't reach the bottom of the case sides. Compare the DW 6239/7750's "shelf" with the crown-side of the modified case: It took Justin a few tries to get the engraving right. Early experiments were performed on an aluminum sheet, but once he got the bit size right, it was onto hard steel. As a final touch, J filled in the letters with a fine pen, to simulate the chipping and faded enamel seen in genuine FAP engravings. I'm not Peruvian, nor do I have any particular affinity for their Air Force, but I get a big smile every time I take the Daytona off and see the caseback. I'd call it a great success for jmb and his new rig. Dial As previously mentioned, I started off planning to use a DW dial--standard black, with a white 'DAYTONA' at 6 o'clock. Nice enough, but with a few key annoyances: 1. Flat subdials: There's not even a hint of dishing. This wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the thick circular indent marking the "bottom" of the subdials. 2. Coronet: As Freddy and a few others have done before, I meant to replace the DW coronet with a genuine piece. I'd even bought a few old dials as potential donors, though all of these had the tighter-lipped Beyeler coronets, rather than the correct, wide-mouthed Singer. 3. Indices: This became an obsession of mine for several weeks. The metal hour markers on DW's dials are conspicuously flat--less than half as tall as they are on the gen. Really anal stuff, but I was determined to replace them either with newly fabricated pieces, or modified blocks from a Datejust dial. I never did figure out a solution, but an alternative presented itself. While trawling eBay for parts, I found a listing for a "refinished 6239 dial". Ho-hum, right? But it was a silver 6239 with a wide 'DAYTONA'. As far as I knew, none of our usual "refinishing" friends (i.e. Phong, Yuki, and NDT) carried such a dial. Upon further investigation, I soon realized that it was an honest-to-goodness refinished dial i.e. a genuine dial restored. mcotter and alligoat helped me verify the dial, so I bid. I'm certain that the "refinished" tag made it a much easier auction for me to win. It didn't look so good in the listing. The text looked rough and I was turned off by the slight greenish tinge to the lume dots. But I quickly spotted several tells, and they were directly related to my planned mods of the DW dial: First was the genuine Singer coronet, which has never been replicated properly by anyone. Next were the tall hour markers. As you can see in the picture, these are almost as high as Datejust blocks. Finally, as rough as the edges of the RCD looked, the layout of the text was identical to documented gens. The letters on the left half looked bolder than the right, and my guess is that most of the restoration happened there. What I couldn't see in the listing's pictures were the grooves in the shallow subdials. These are extremely fine (similar to a Speedmaster's, for example) and impossible to see without magnification and appropriate lighting. The print quality within the subdials is excellent. To be honest, I bought the dial thinking I might send it in for a re-refinishing. I changed my mind as soon as I received it. What a find! Bezel Another lucky find at a good price, this 6265 bezel came from a well-known Rolex seller. The listing was six months old, and no one was biting despite regular price drops. It's seen better days, but its level of wear was exactly what I was looking for. I paid a fair price, considering how much gen bezels usually sell for, but cheaper isn't the same as cheap: This was the second-most expensive item in this build, after the LeJour. If nothing else, the gen shows just how good DW's 300UPH bezel is. Disregard DW's too-tight inner diameter, and you can see how he almost nailed the fonts and spacing. (If only his 200UPHs were as nice.) Also note the brownish color of the paint within the numerals. I thought it was rust when I saw it in the listing, but thankfully this wasn't the case. I should point out that one of the most difficult parts in the assembly was fitting the gen bezel onto the gen crystal. For some reason, the bezel would pop back up right after being pressed down to the crystal's base. The only way to solve this was by sanding a bit off the bezel's inner diameter. No, not 0.3mm like on DW's bezel, but a very small amount. I don't get it, myself. Other bits I bought a pair of pushers from Ofrei for this build, but Justin couldn't get them to screw in. That's when I learned the horrible truth about DW's Daytona pushers: The diameter is correct (0.25mm), but the thread pitch is 0.25, versus 0.2 for the gens and gen-size pushers like Ofrei's or Cousins'. I tried a Clark's Daytona handset, but it didn't look right. Clark's subdial hands, for example, are skinny needles--wrong for everything but the running seconds on an early 6239. So, I went back to DW's hands. The minute counter needed the Freddy fix i.e. glue on the tube so it would reset consistently. The minute/hour hands weren't relumed, but I stained them with urine and fec iodine diluted with alcohol. Acrylic thinner was used to correct mistakes, without dissolving the lume. The crown is a genuine 600, while the bracelet is a genuine mutt (7205 with 357 endlinks) transferred from my old 6239/7750. The crystal is a genuine Tropic 21 I've held in reserve for more than a year. It's good to plan ahead! I learned that lesson yet again at the very end of this project. Completion was delayed when I discovered that the LeJour's stem was a bloody Tap 8, rather than the Tap 10 that all good Rolexes use. For the past couple of weeks, I've been as impatient as this famous Peruvian: Curiously, DW provided a free 7750 stem with his V72 case set. That was... nice of him. Final Notes Long post to cap a long build. If you skipped the text just to see the pictures, I forgive you. This is like a dump of my project notes, and a future reference for my own use. Thanks again to my Texas team, alligoat and jmb, for all your help. Thanks also go to mcotter, ChiMan12, ubiquitous, and freddy333 for advice. Building a V72 Daytona is like joining a small club filled with guys I admire and respect. (Also, I get one really swell watch out of the deal.) It's been long, expensive, frustrating, and exciting. But right now it just feels really good. Well, that looks familiar!

It's a sunny Daytona weekend:

This was the last comment I read last night, so I went to bed pretty happy! It's an honor for me (and surely for Justin) that you would even consider the possibility. It's not a gen, but it does have a significant amount of gen bits, and I tried to address the familiar tells. There are some angles that are less flattering, but I think it came out pretty well, overall. Thanks for the early feedback, everyone! I've been obsessing over tiny details these past several months, and it's easy to lose the bigger picture and not realize what others are seeing.

These are very hard to come by, and they won't be cheap if you do. Take the best price you can find for 571s, then expect to pay at least double.

Let's play Spot-the-Difference: Perhaps the changes are easier to see from behind: Full story coming soon!

In the morning, In the evening, Ain't we got fun?