TJGladeRaider

I agree - I don't buy from just one dealer either. On the other hand, I don't shop for bottom dollar price and ignore who the dealer is. Case in point. I bought a very nice Patek Philippe from one of our dealers, and then found it twenty dollars cheaper thru a different dealer when I wanted one for my brother. When the watch came from the second dealer, it was missing a screw. I tried to get a replacement screw from that dealer for MONTHS, but all i got was promises. I finally mentioned it to the dealer I bought the first watch from and, even knowing that I had bought the defective watch from someone else, I had a replacement screw in two weeks. I find it very important to choose who I deal with carefully, and I do think that people driven to chisel prices to the last dollar will drive competent, cordial, customer service oriented dealers the way of the dinosaur. Bill

I have been following these group buy deals, and the concept seems to be the exact opposite of the general opinions we have always seen oin the boards, and I am wondering at the logic - if indeed, there is any logic to this. I suppose I should distinguish between group buy for eligibility, and group buy for leverage. Some products are only available to those who buy in bulk, sometimes as way to weed out individual buyers, and sometimes because a production run is not justified by a single piece order/sale. That makes perfect sense to me. On the other hand, a group buy approach to force down prices is a completely different concept and I question the long-term wisdom of that idea. If you're going to create an environment where a given type of animal survives and thrives, you better be sure it is the animal that you want. The, "Do you buy from the dealer with the lowest price, or best service" question has been bounced around on these forums to death. The consensus is always that it makes sense to pay a little more to the guy who will stand behind his product - the choose your dealer and then choose your watch mantra plays here over and over again. The group buy concept is the exact opposite, and although it doesn't affect me one way or the other, I think some of you should think about what this will mean to you down the road. Smart business in one environment can be not-so-smart in another. I don't have the best, or biggest collection of watches, but I buy more than most. I just bought more than $1000 worth of watches from Andrew a few minutes ago, I am negotiating a purchase of somewhere between four and ten watches thru George, and Joshua is getting an order together for me of either four, or eight - depending on price and availability. I am not a dealer, nobody ever saw me offer any watch for sale - I just like to collect them, and I give them as unique gifts to some of my friends. I readily admit that nobody asked me for an opinion, but if someone asked me to set up a "group buy," I am quite sure I could set one up as effectively as anyone -- I'd recommend against it, and here is why. When you pick your dealer, and buy your watch, there is a component there that some may be missing -- a sort of "credit" with that dealer that counts for a lot. Let's say a watch sells for $250, and I'll guess dealer cost to be $150 (If you're out there thinking these guys are selling watches for peanuts, you're too stupid to talk to). If that watch sells for $250 as your "absolute best price," I expect to buy it for $225 - I would expect a dealer I have sent thousands of dollars to give me a better deal than he gives most customers, and he/she would. He'll settle for a $75 profit from me rather than $100 from most for a lot of reasons. He knows I am not going to defi8ne this purchase as a "Counterfeit Fake Replica Rolex" to PayPal, I am not going to scream to the list when my watch isn't here in three days, I am not going to scream to PayPal when it breaks, and I am not going to charge it back just for the fun of it. I have earned that. If my watch shows up defective, I would expect them to make it right, and make a bit more effort in that regard than they normally would for most customers, and he/she would. I have earned that. If I reported that Customs seized the watch and they are one of those dealers that covers that, I would expect a watch sent immediately - a man doesn't buy five (or fifty) watches from you just so he can screw you out of a watch! The REAL point I want to make here is not about the fact that you build up faith and credit with dealers you buy from, the REAL point I want to make here is related to diminishing returns. In actual practice, it works like this. Once you have bought two or three from a dealer, they remember you and most dealers have very, very few customers who have bought more from them than that. Buy six, and you are on their personal VIP list forever whether you buy six more, or sixty. In my experience, that status has real value -- VERY real value, but note the dramatically diminishing scale. Buy a couple, and you have most of the credit there is and then whether you buy six, or sixty, that VIP status doesn't change much. That's because there is only so far a dealer can move and make a living. Now back to the $250 watch. The advertised price is $300, the best you can do is $250 and I agree to buy the watch for twenty of you at $225. Let's look at who got what. The selling dealer made $1500 - three-fourths what he would have expected to make, and he has put twenty watches "on the road" for it. The non-selling dealers got screwed. That may not occur to you, but it is true. They are here to sell watches and if this watch has "group buy" potential, it is because it is a piece that everyone wants, and all of our dealers are here expecting to make a few dollars on it. Think of this as a pond that only has so many fish in it - once somone pulls out a disproportionate share, someone else goes hungry. You saved $25, but you have established nothing with this dealer -- he doesn't even know who you are, and why should he care. You aren't loyal to him, you are going to buy with your group from whomever will undercut everyone else's price next time, whether he offers you service or not. You tell me -- what's his motivation to stand behind your watch? I wouldn't, and you wouldn't, so why would he? Like I said - if you're going to restructure the environment so a new kind of animal can survive here, be careful. You may wind up losing what you have come to expect, and find yourself living with a monster. I think this is about dumb as a box of rocks, but that's just one man's opinion. Bill

I am going to have to use some sky miles one day and go visit yon disconsolate Scotsman - I too believe that sobriety is inexcusable as it is a readily curable disorder, and lobster and prawns suits me just fine for as long as the brew holds out! The last great song to be created was "Barbry Allen," or perhaps "Mary of the Wild Moor" whichever came last! Bill

Let me make an effort to clarify your mind as to how I feel on this, "what did they pay for it, what do they charge for it" issue. Here in Florida, sea shells are free - at least the cheap ones found on the beach are. Now, suppose the little rooster conchs that wash up on the beach in a certain section of North Naples, Florida, about an hour away from my house, become very popular in China. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that every Chinese guy in China is just dying to buy these rooster conchs that I can drive an hour, on any given morning, and go pick up a half dozen of -- for free. Unfortunately, selling these little conchs is against the law, not that anyone seems to care most of the time, but they could care, and a person could get in serious trouble. There is a potential for fines, penalties and maybe jail. Worse yet, we are talking about dealing with Chinese people, and you know how devious and dishonest those people are. For example: I bet, crazy as it may sound, once I got into it, my Chinese customers would expect me to send them a new shell if their efforts to break their laws got their shell seized. I also bet that I would be expected to deliver perfect shells, everytime, no matter what the babboons in the shipping business did to my packages along the way. In fact, I bet some of my nasty Chinese buyers are going to try and outright screw me, claiming they never got their shell when theirs arrived right on time, expecting me to send them another anyway. Even more annoying, once some of these Chinese guys have my shells for a while, they are going to expect a refund if they don't like them as much as they thought. Finally, you know what those sorry, Chinese low-lifes will do? If I don't bow to their every damn wish, and yield to their every stupid demand, they are going to snitch me out and get me in trouble just because they can do that and get away with it. So, how much am I going to charge to drive across town, pick up a few of these every day at no charge whatsoever to me except a pleasant walk on the beach, pack them carefully, and send them to China? You don't even wanna know!! My answer to that question is my own, based upon my personal assessment of the risks versus the rewards as compared to the other opportunities available to me, but I will say this - if Charlie Chan decided to whine and [censored] that I was making a profit on this operation, I'd be finding a friend who spoke whatever dialect of Chinese Charlie was most familiar with so I could tell him to $%^& *& $%^&*#$% @$$ in a language he would understand. Bill

I have a bunch of these watch winder boxes and I have had several where the carousel has become loose and begun a noisy rocking motion as it turned - the fix is simple, even for the least talentend Klutz. Take your watches/cushions out of the winder. Grab the padded circular carousel by the ridge in the middle and pull it out of the wooden caseing. It may require som wiggling because some are pressed in pretty tight. Underneath, you will find a circular piece of cardboard that may be pressed into place, or may have a little dab of glue. Remove it, even iof you have to tear it all up. Once you have that out, you will see the head of a screw in the center of the wooden casing. Hold the wooden caseing tight and tighten the screw - but don't get crazy with it. Just tighten it snug and it will last just fine for a long time. I have been tempted to use loctite but I don't know what happens if you take the screw all the way out. Most times the cardboard disk comes out really easy, but some have been glued in. If you destroy it, all you need do is take another piece of thin cardboard like the one that comes when you buy a new shirt and cut it to fit. Once you have done it once, you will find it is such a simple fix that there is no reason to risk overtightening. Bill

Great minds . . . LOL Bill

That looks like the upgraded case Chinese version that Josh sells. The crown guards are improved as is the shape of the case from the old CN versions. The pundits will still pick at the date mag, as it is a shade too far to the right, but no Sub I am aware of has a better, brighter date - sitting in my watch box with 19 other Rollies, I can spot that watch straight away. For whatever it is worth, I have had several of them from Josh, they have all tested to be perfectly waterproof to 5ATM, and every single one has kept very good time as it came. They are durable and reliable in daily use. Lately, I have been wearing the MBW vintage watches most of the time, but the "perfect" Subs and SDs with the lug holes are close contenders, and the contermporary versions of those same watches are very sweet too. Enjoy your watch, and don't worry about water - it won't embarrass you. Bill

Nope. I have reps that I'd like to have gens of (Subs, SDs, Pam28, Pam29) and I could have gens of all of them for the money I have spent on reps, but reps intrigue me - the counterfeiters art is fascinating. Besides. if you own a Pam rep with the genuine movement, wouldn't you feel like a ripped off putz paying all that money for the gen? Maybe it's the last vestige of rebelliousness in a guy getting old, maybe it's the Walter Mitty opportunity to legally participate in an otherwise criminal activity, maybe it's resentment that the Swiss Cartels have practiced outrageous artificial price controls . . . maybe it's just that most other hobbies bore me. I dunno, but to me, the bottom line is this - there is no law that says I cannot collect these things, I like them, and I can afford them, so I see no reason to stress myself trying to figure out why. While it's true that the reps are not truly a match for the gens, when you consider that I bought that entire box for about what Uncle Rollie expects me to pay for the genuine version of the least expensive one of them, that's pretty damn ridiculous. I guess I just like thumbing my nose at Uncle Rollie. Bill

I've bought a few watches, and I see no reason to spend time on a board like this and then jump into a risky deal in search of the "perfect sub" when I know perfectly well that I have the best there are. The one and only time I have ever been burned was when I let my drive to round out my collection with some MBWs get the better of my common sense. I got unlucky, but the money I risked was my own and I'm not whining about it - these aren't Girl Scout Cookies we are collecting and we aren't ordering from SEARS. I finally got my MBWs ordered from a reliable source (Thank you George, and those who made the introduction), and for those who love the vintage Rolex, they are very nice. For those looking for very nice Classic Subs/SDs (lug holes) or the contemporary models without lug holes, I have bought dozens from Joshua and several from Eddie Lee, and other board members report similar experiences with some of our other dealers. Although I have bought some of just about everything, I have one box dedicated to Rollies - just took a new update pic. This is a modem burner Same pic for the dial ups I guess my point is, why would anyone buy unknown quality products from dealers without established reputations . . . makes no sense to me, but as I said before, so long as you're risking your iwn money, and aren't going to whine if things don't work out, I sure do wish you luck! Bill

Hi Andrew, Having five precious gifts of my own, I appreciate the wonder of childbirth. One thing is for sure, there is NEVER too much money when you have a house full of kids, and new babies bring LOTS of new expenses! We hope life is good to you and yours. Bill & Luz

I don't have any reason to believe that Janus is known for account churning, or any such nonsense, but depending upon which of the Janus funds you fet in, you might do well, or very poorly. The thing about investment is, strategy should be tailored to the investor. What makes sense for a thirty year old corporate attorney makes no sense at all for a retired librarian. The attorney can risk everything he has . . . he'll make more next year, but if the librarian loses her nest egg, she's done. Here's the pearl in the pig [censored] - the doctrine of unsuitability. Most people do not know this, but if the retired librarian entrusted her nest egg to Stocks-R-Us, and they put her money in high risk investments, she could take them to arbitration and get an award, even though everything was legal, above board, and she approved every trade. ALWAYS, ALWAYS. ALWAYS when you open an investment account, list yourself as having no knowledge or investment experience on their intake form. All brokers are required to have new investors fill out the form, and more than one investor has been burned by indicating they were more knowledgeable and experienced than they were. Bill

Very nice I wish to propose a toast . . . to the patient women in our lives. Bill

Since my career as a Special Agent, US Department of the Treasury, I am currently self employed as an investigator of financial crimes and securities issues. The above post was very well put together. I would only add that some of the names you may know better are due to heavy advertising, that does not make them better people to trust with your money. Personally, I deal with AG Edwards -- very, very few sanctions against them. In any event, don't let yourself get "Lynched." Bill

OOOPPPPS --- I just notied that he specified the correct movement in his recommendation - be sure and get it with ETA 2892. Bill

DOUBLE DITTO - and step up to the correct movement. Bill

Beer has a wonderfully magic quality - you can drink one and [censored] two all night long When one does drink one and pisses two all night long, one's syllables tend to run together Urinal can be hard to say sober, and Scots are notoriously cheap I ain't drinking no Scot Irn brew . . . but thanks fer invitin me anyway Bill

His name is Mike -- a very nice fella. I just ordered some and if they are as nice as they look, I'll order more. Thanks for the tip. He seems like one of those rare people that just loves what he does. Bill

As with all things, there is a flip side to this coin. I grew up in Guantanamo, our Navy Base in Cuba from the mid sixties, until I graduated from High School in 1975. There is a reason why Castro has been popular - and make no mistake, he was VERY popular - that has nothing to do with brutality. This guy should never be compared to the brutal despots of the world. In the 1950s, Cuba, under Batitsa, was essentially one big sugar plantation - a slave state to US interests, both sugar and oil. Some of you may find the following to be of interest. Operation Zapata - you may know it as Bay of Pigs More about Zapata The bottom line is, Cuba was a place where a very small group of "have gots" lorded over an entire population of "have nots" in subservience to US interests. Castro nationalized everything, took the wealth of the "have gots" spread it among the "have nots" and kicked the US interests out . . . sort of sounds like another revolution a couple of hundred years prior. Study the situation and check what the stats say about educational levels, infant mortality rates, average income, life expectancy as it existed under Batista, and as it is under Castro. You don't even want me to get started on the hero JFK and the way he stared down the Kremlin in the Cuban Missile Crisis - if the chicken-[censored] gutless puke hadn't abandoned the US CIA trained . . . no, let's just stick to watches. Thanks so much my friend for that other, wonderful, information. Bill

Thanks for the PM WTF is the matter with this Country? You cannot get in that much trouble for importing coke - what a crock! I should have bought some nice Cohibas when I was in Geneve Bill

I have a Client who has one of the best Law Firms I work for. He has been buying what he believes to be Cuban cigars from a local bartender. I think they are fake. Is anyone knowledgeable about this sort of thing? Is there a source known to sell genuine Cubans? Are they more dangerous/difficult to have sent than rep watches? Thanks for any help. Bill

I understand the concerns, but I thought spending the money and time to find out would be worthwhile. Rather than experiment with pools, bathtubs and such, I bought a pressure tester made for watches and I published the results - here on this forum, and with the pics to prove it. Bill

I don't tell anybody how to mod watches - I don't have the expertise. I do have the expertise to answer this question, and my very best advice to you is, DO NOT get your leg amputated over a splinter. Do not lie, do not make up documents, do not file bogus docs provided by others -- unless, of course, grief and pain appeal to you. I recommend you either: 1. Contact a lawyer, tell them the truth, and let them see what can be done (best choice) 2. Contact Customs person handling this and ask the relevant question, "Could I get in trouble for trading with a friend for a fake watch?" That is not a confession, that is not an admission - it is a simple question, and you will probably get an honest answer. Since you may not have had a lot of experience dealing with law enforcement, let me mention that if you go with plan 2, DO NOT embarrass anybody by showing them the defects in the watch. Instead, tell them your friend told you it was some kind of special fake like nothing anyone ever saw before, but you really don't believe it could be real because you traded a $XXX dollar watch for it. Embarrassing law enforcement officers is probably never a good idea; when they are holding you by the nuts, it is a very, very bad thing. In any event, forget all that other silly [censored]. You simply cannot believe the number of criminal offenses you are contemplating, and the consequences appertaining thereto. Bill

OMG, who's the dealer. I just went back and checked my box - I didn't get one of those with mine . . . besides, I think I'd have remembered. Bill

Glad to hear it Andrew; perhaps some worthwhile lessons were learned all round. Bill

Yes, I would agree - he may feel threatened. At his age, and in his line of work, I would have thought that he should have long ago learned that it is always est to resolve matters with anyone, in the most civilized manner possible. When things become uncivilized, bad things happen, and only the young and foolish foment unnecessary discord for nothing. Perhaps he wll come to see things in a clearer light. What details would you like to hav Neil? Bill