TJGladeRaider

Dear Sir, I have read with some attention the account of this story as related by Andrew, and I am aware that there are always two sides to everything. What I want to share with you is my personal experience that is so similar that I think the facts might be relevant to you. I bought yet another of Joshua's "Perfect" Sea Dwellers - one of many as it is a watch I have made no secret that I like a lot, with the "full service package." Imagine my dismay when the watch showed up and the date was not properly aligned in the window. It worked fine, but for a very expensive rep that had been "individually hand serviced," completely unacceptable. Somehow, I managed to refrain from posting nasty grams, pissing and moaning to PayPal, or having Vito and Sal stop by and break anybody's legs. I have very little patience with [censored], but I like to be in full possession of the facts before doing anything dramatic. I returned the watch via FedEx, and his man examined it immediately. He reported, thru Joshua, that the watch had been dropped and something had broken inside which seemed odd to me since it looked more like a minor adjustment issue. When I attempted to replace the bracelet, I found that his watch smythe had actually taped two tiny metal pieces to the back of the watch so I would see what he meant. Examined under the loop, the watch as I received it has the most perfectly centered date of any SD I have - and that's quite a statement considering. Don't you think that's a better way to handle things than making people mad enough to try to get even. Why risk having someone turn off your utilities, or report your credit cards stolen, or have "Brucie" call your mom and beg her to be more openminded about your relationships, or "Bambi" call your wife, or subscribe you to NAMBLA, or ruin your credit, or order kiddie porn from a sting operation in your name, or Phasma e-mails from "you" to high ranking public officials referencing explosives and anthrax . . . or any of those other silly childish pranks that kids play. Worse yet, even in a nice little community like this, you might [censored] off somebody who would do something wicked. Bill

O yes indeed. I recall the cartoon by that world famous, if somewhat inscrutible, Farside caroonist where some very, very serious looking predatory cats (lions, or tigers, or something) were about to pounce upon a herd of something, as a similar cat, on two legs, with a loud tie and silly hat goes walking by - apparently whistling. It was a hysterical testimopnial to the odd man out who is never going to fit in, I always thought that was hilarious, but a lot of people just didn't get it. Gary Larson was brilliant. Bill

Oh that would be too cool -- "Photoshop?" Bill

Yes indeed. A shooter would never say a trigger was "pulled," as it's all about precision trigger control and sight alignment. A trigger must be very gently and smoothly squeezed . . . or as the shooting illuminati might put it, "stroked" [written fully aware of the, I'll never read that again without . . ."] Bill

Can you refer me to a source that would give me a good price on a dozen or so. Bill

Has anyone ever tried using a standard screw extractor set to remove a tube? Looks to me like it's a very good thing that the rep crowns fit the gen tubes - tubs are easy, but those crowns seem to be very hard to find. Bill

You see, now that just goes to show . . . what looks like madness can make perfect sense! LOL Bill

I am not a total clutz, I managed a machine shop early in my career (about thirty years ago), and I know a little about tool & die. I have read the wonderful tutorials, and I know what drills, taps and such I need to do springbars and crown/tube replacements on my twenty plus collection of Subs and SDs. I am not completely clear on the stem part, but since all my watches are ETA, once I have actually done one, I am sure everything will fall into place. What I don't know for sure is exactly what crown/tube parts to look for. I also don't know what the tool is that you use to unscrew, rescrew, the stem into the crown. Is there a single best tutorial that I may have missed covering this from start to finish? Also, where do you recommend I get GOOD tools, at a reasonable price - I am so tired of buying tools that turn out to be junk . . . like my Rolex case back remover set that doesn't fit. I have a good job, and at my hourly rate, I am quites sure that I could buy a brand new Sub and an SD from any AD for what I'll probably spend in time learning how to do this right, but so what? By the time I learn how to take one of these little darlings completely apart, do whatever the Ziggys of the world do with them, and put it all back together, I'll probably have blown enough time and money to buy my own AD before I actually make one run. Yes, I know. Sick beyond all redemption. I cannot for the life of me figure out why some people invest a freaking fortune in steel sticks just so they can dress up in ridiculous plaid pants, to go chasing a little white ball all over creation, ostensibly for "exercise" yet riding electric carts and paying some guy to carry their bag. I can remember watching the old Star Trek and feeling sorry for Spock -- imagine what a dreadful existence it would be if the things we do all had to make sense. Anyone willing to share some more guidance? Bill

I looked at that, but the easiest comparison for me is to look at the prior CN Sub he sold me, and compare it to this new CN Sub he sold me - you're absolutely right, the CGs are night and day different, even to me. Is there something I would have no clue about that would make it sensible for me to spend twice as much to buy the expensive ones? Bill

I am so tempted to say, "Who has the Perfect Sub?" I don't know how many other sick puppies waste tons of time and money playing with horological dolls, but I figure that if I have to have an obsession, this isn't so bad. As I sit here with more than twenty Subs and SDs, looking at dial print with my loop, examining CGs, gauging rehauts, turning Bezels, studying pearls . . . and re-re-reading the reviews and tutorials posted by our experts, I would like to have some of you guys who know this stuff better to make a specific comparison. Just before Joshua stirred everything up with his "Perfect" stuff, and his serviced stuff, there was a transition where he changed the watches he had been selling from this: Classic Sub On His Photobucket To this: Classic Sub On Perfect Clones Site This watch is not expensive, but I have several of both and they are absolutely not the same case - look at the CGs, but the case curves are different too. I can easily tell which is which in the dark because the old case was flush with bezel where new case is undercut - you can see the rim of the bezel from the back and the feel is very different. When I compare this to TW Best Contemporary and MBW contemporary (no lug holes), I can see that they are most definitely completely different in many ways - and they should be at about twice as much money. My confusion is that I don't see that the expensive watch is better. I do see that the TW/MBW cyclops is closer inboard than the Josh Sub - and more correct that way. The problem is, cyclops placement isn't as obvious to me as the way the date mag looks, and Joshuas looks bigger and brighter. To my eye the dials look virtually identical, but I can read the print a little clearer on the Josh Sub - but it is very, very close to the same - at least to my amateur eye, even with a loop. The bezel inserts seem identical to me, but the pearls are different. Even under the loop, I don't know which is more correct though. Although the bezel mechanism is SERIOUSLY different when you handle the versions of the Classic that Josh and EL sell with the lug holes, that firm, tight, precise bezel click feel is not carried over to the TW/MBW contemporary Sub. I cannot tell any difference in feel between the Josh Contemporary Sub, and the Contemporary TW/MBW Sub, but they are definitely not the same - the TW/MBW bezel is obviously thicker, so the bezel is flush with the face of the crystal, whereas the crystal is a mm or so taller on the Josh Sub - again, I don't know which is better. The huge, immediately obvious difference is the crown. The TW/MBW is obviously thicker than the Josh Sub, making the CGs look smaller. I can clearly see the difference, but I don't know which is best. I like the feel of the big crown in my sausage fingers, but it looks too big to me. As a package, without bracelets, the TW/MBW is heavier - the case, bezel and case back all seem heavier constructed to me, but I don't have a clue which is correct. Both are tested waterproof to 132 feet (by me) and both keep time within a few seconds a day. It seems odd to me that this new case/cg version of the Josh Sub hasn't gotten much comment - I guess it got "lost in the sauce" when he came out with the "Perfect" stuff, or maybe I'm just too dense to see why I shouldn't like the cheap one better. It's important to me as I am going to buy a dozen Subs as gifts -- since the price is about two for one, I'd feel pretty stupid to find out later I bought the wrong watch. Bill

I'll leave the expert critiques to the experts - which I am not. However, while I do not have the expertise, I do have the watches themselves sitting here in front of me. To me, I keep Subs/SDs straight in my mind as vintage, classic (lug holes), and contemporary (no lug holes). I am more quality than price conscious - I cannot tell you anything about the inexpensive ones. The contemporary sub that this guy bought, is exceptionally nice, and an obvious improvement over Joshua's prior model. I don't argue with experts, but if this isn't the most bang for the buck as contemporary subs go, someone needs to show me why. I have the contemporary MBW equivalent sitting right here too. I'd be anxious to have our experts compare it to this watch, just as they come off the shelf. Bill

For those who may be looking at that pointer, trying to fgure out how it could be more centered over the twelve - look up. The bezel insert matches the dial just fine, but it does not match the scallops in the bezel itself. I offer this assuming I am not the only one who has sat here, staring, and studying, trying to see how they could make that insert any straighter. Bill

Just consulted with Josh, you have been upgraded to this watch Your Watch If, for any reason, you think you prefer the old one - you just let me know. Bill

I don't think you have the watch you think you have - but maybe it's just the pics have me confused. I have every Sub/SD Joshua sells, and several of each of the best ones, and I believe that you have his best contemporary sub with the new case and crown guards. If so, it is not the "classic" sub that he was selling on his photobucket site as his best for so long (although that was real nice and I have some of those), but a new style I bought a few of when he first sourced it a few months ago. I could be mistaken, so you better ask Joshua, but I have them all right here. On his "Classic" from Photobucket, the crown guards don't look good, and you'll notice his pics show the stem out. His newest version of that watch has much better crown guards - I think he upgraded you. It has seemed odd to me that his new case didn't get much commentary - I guess it was overlooked because he came out with his "perfect" series almost immediately after that. If yours is what I think it is, it is one of my favorites in the contemporary, no lug hole design. Bill

A couple of comments - I am not disputing the other observations, rather adding to it. First, many of these are looking for exactly what they say - a straight relationship with someone who they can clear incoming funds thru. People think PayPal means honesty because there is no way to use one anonymously (well, there is, but I'm not trying to teach this here). As an example, suppose I'm selling steroids and I don't want to set up a PayPal account, or cannot get one, why not use someone else's and pay them a percent, thereby insulating myself from the consequences of a PayPal subpoena? When Patsy gets my money, I just have them send 90% of it to me via more secure method. Second, many people want to wash their stolen money thru your acount. My devious little minions steal credit card numbers, or run a bust out scam with real ones, sending me their money thru your account. Again, when Patsy gets my money, I just have them send 90% of it to me via more secure method. Then there's the ACH version, where Patsy, whose been a really good Patsy can move up to bigger money because Patsy is so trustworthy. Since I know that Patsy will send me my 90%, I use her as my Patsy Collector. I have a dozen other Patsies PayPal my 90% to Patsy, and then have Patsy send me my 90% of that (thereby netting 81% for me) by secure method. Not revealing any clever secrets here - this is all amateur hour. I had one case out of Ohio that was funny. Bad man responds to 5,000 Widget advertisement, "Mr. Dumbo, I am the purchasing agent for Sheik Abba Dabba Da Arab, and I am going to buy your widget. I have an unlimited discretionary account and no oversight, so I am going to send you 20,000 = you keep twice your asking price, and refund $10,000 to me. No funny stuff, I send certified check, you remit only after check clears." Check arrives, Dumbo deposits, and the check clears - no problem. Dumbo decides, "Screw the Arab, he's a thief anyway," and goes on a spending spree. Eventually, check comes back - a very, very first rate forgery - and guess what, poor Dumbo cannot account for the missing Arab, and it's clear that he's in this on his own because he spent every dime on himself. It gets better. Keep in mind that Dumbo does not really understand what has happened - he cannot figure it out. Dumbo has no money, but his public defender finds me. Conference call with Dumbo and PD, Dumbo explains facts, I explain scam, PD wants me to come to Ohio and explain my experience with these things, and bring my collection of such checks. Retainer and Fee Agreement agreed upon. Dumbo never follows thru . . . Dumbo's too clever to pay me my fee, now that he understands what happened - why does he need me now that he can explain it himself. Expert witnesses don't get paid for what they say - the fee is based on who they are, the credentils they have. The jury was not impressed by a thief who tried to steal from one guy, and inadvertently stole from the other. Bummer Dude. One final word to the wise - watch out for wire transfers. CHECK TO BE SURE THEY WERE WIRED. If we have anyone from Mesa AZ who saw the news broadcast last year about the old couple who were almost the victims of the "FedEx'd Wire Transfer," that was my case and we got their money back. If you expect a wire transfer, and I FedEx a Bogus Cashiers Check to your bank, credit to your account, unless you check, or they call, all you know is the funds arrived as promised. Next thing you know, you get a charge back for a fraudulent check you never even knew about. Be careful boys and girls - bad people out there. Bill

Oh whassa matta you! Can't you see that these people are the absolute epitome of precision! Look closely - don't you see that they are so incredibly attentive to detail that all their watches are set to the same time! You don't see Joshua, Eddie Lee or any of the others going to that kind of trouble do you? And to that other guy talking about WU -- why would you do that? Order it COD, inspect it before you pay for it, and I bet they'd even let you wear it a week before having the delivery guy come back to be paid. Jesus, I try to share my good fortune with everyone, and look how you act! Bill

Actually, I guess they found me. True Perfection; The Rep Gospel Somedays, especially when I find myself reading esoteric critiques that are beyond my meager aptitude, I forget what the rest of the rep world has to contend with. Bill

You may have no idea how lucky you are . . . depending on the "reputable dealer." My PVD Pam 028 (one of my most unique and expensive reps) did exactly as you describe - and it seems like if I recall correctly it was actually worse than that. I remember that I reset it twice thinking I had somehow set the hour hand wrong. My reputable dealer was most cooperative - no doubt partially because I bought that watch on his recommendation. I sent it back as instructed, and when I got it back, it had been completely serviced, and it keeps time to within a few seconds per day. I hope yours treats you as well. Bill

Ain't that the truth! Bill

Hi Admin, As far as the feelings, and emotional issues, I cannot help you much, but I can tell you that the kind of people who do these things, are often the kind of people who hurt their victims for no reason other than, "the fun of it." I do want to mention a couple of things people forget: Homeowners Insurance - check to see if they cover this Auto Insurance - same, even if not connected to the car in any way Credit Cards - some of the things they cover are remarkable Taxes - people often forget that this is an uninsured casualty loss qualifying for deduction Lord, how I do value our "right to carry" laws here. Thugs with knives wouldn't last long in an environment where even old ladies are likely to be "packing," and bystanders/passersby are all potential "armed guards" of the peace. Glad you're safe Admin Bill

If you look at the close up of the box, the bottom watch on the left, you can see that the gold center links look like they have brown stains down the edges and you can see the firdt centerlink below the dial has a brown blotch in the center of the link. I know they're bad pics - trouble is, I took those some time ago, but they were all I could go back and find that showed it at all. That's a shame, because you'd never believe it without the pics. Bill

I suppose it's possible that someone might recall, but I cannot seem to find the post where I talked about taking a two-tone sub with the "wrapped band" option to see how it would survive the real world. Naturally, since I have a pressure tester, I tested the watch and established that it was as waterproof as Josh claimed - and then some. No leaks to 132 feet. My real world involves lots of salt water, fish blood, squid guts . . . and lot's more salt water. After a coupole of days of that, a watch I am particularly fond of might get rinsed off with a little beer - or not, as I have higher priorities. As I mentioned previously, I have been very unkind to this watch, but when I finally do bring it home, I intend to soak it in warm soapy water and wash it off real good, and probably soak the band down with WD-40, and then wash it again. Sometimes, I forget things. As most of us do, this was my absolute, positively favorite watch - for a while, and then I fell in love with something else . . . my PVD Pam 028 I think. Anyway, it got relegated to my Rolex box and I forgot about it until someone said, "Wow, what happened to that?" Watch is on far left here It seems that when I lost interest, I neglected to clean it up. The picture doesn't do it justice (or perhaps injustice), and I regret not taking some better ones of the mess that this once very nice looking two-tone had become. I was going to throw the band away and replace it with a nice natural sharkskin strap. I was curious to see if any of that mess would come off, so I put a little metal polish on a rag and it took five minutes - maybe three - the watch looks absolutely as good as new. I really wish I had taken a better picture of the thing before cleaning it up. It was truly retch worthy. I'd be willing to bed that if you dipped a regular plated TT band in salt water and left it sit for a few months, it would be impossible to bring it back. Bill

Being as I'm still a little nauseous, I have blurred vison in one eye, a lump the size of Nebraska on the side of my head, and blood running out of my ear, it's completely clear to me that you are a limp wristed wuss - if my little wifey was WHACKING them, nobody would be coming back for seconds. Timid Little Wifey- Right Ckick & Download to play Bill

Oh yes indeed . . . for hours, I sat, wholly impervious to my surroundings, completely captivated by one of the most incredible examples of human dynamics, a bounce, with a sort of jiggle, followed by a rather pleasant swell, firm, yet yielding . . . and then W H A C K, like someone hitting the "reset" button my lovely little wifey slapped me upside the head. And to think that some of you think TTK is brutal . . . Speaking of getting whacked, am I the only one who finds this thread (and the darkside one that preceded it) as wonderfully amusing as it is completely circular: "WHACK" "Oh, you are a very mean man . . ." "and a WHACK for you" "Hey dude, you're an [censored] . . ." "and a WHACK for your little [censored] too" "Whassa matta you - who da fuk . . ." "and a WHACK, or maybe a WOP, for you as well" "Well I say old chap, you are hardly behaving . . ." "chap my ass chump, and here's a bloody WHACK for you" I feel like I'm sitting at mid court in Wimbledon, and my neck hurts. Bill

Well, I'll be flogged and keel hauled. Somebody pin that damn post before he can edit it!!!!!!!!! As far as personal information to noobs, I don't think I've addressed that point directly. Since you bring it up, I would suggest that an individual operating a biz that motivates certain authorities (not to mention certain private interests), to aggressively lust for a piece of their butt, that they have a greater, or lessor degree of difficulty identifying and locating (depending upon how canny and clever you are), telling people you don't know who you are, where you are, and how to find you is, shall we say . . . stoopid. Actually, I think stoopid is an inadequate word to meed my needs here, so I'll call it, "Stoopicidal." As you may recall, I previously opined that it would be smart to have a separate, PRIVATE, area where Dealers could compare notes, and share experiences because if/when the above referenced certain parties make that effort to identify and locate the above referenced butts, it will not be clear to any individual dealer that perilous works are afoot, but the investigative endeavors that I would anticipate would be pretty obvious to dealers collectively and privately comparing notes. Further, some dealers may have access to better information as to how to cover those previously referenced lovely butts than others, and it would be beneficial to be able to share that information, privately, and amongst yourselves. Finally, having had just a wee bit of experience to draw from, I would also observe that as dangerous as the noob you don't know may be, death generally comes from those close to you who suddenly, and unfortunately, find themselves forced to cooperate with those previously referenced parties. Your best friends will have good intentions, but when nutz get crushed, they'll play ball rather than have the bat shoved up their little [censored]. Just my rambling, rhetorical babbling, for whatever it happens to be worth. Bill