mezzanine

If someone would look at one of my rollies and think it was fake, chances are there's something wrong with him! Maybe if he could point out to me, I'd be more open to believing, but that's damn near impossible being that almost everything visible, minus the bracelet (not endlinks) and case are genuine.... So yes, there's always going to be the lay person who only knows of Rolex when it comes to luxury watches, and assumes that any Rolex they see is fake. It's not those people I'm too concerned about. I'm every bit as confident in my SD and sub as my ceramic HBB, and possibly even moreso, since there's really no faking it beyond a certain point in most people's mind. Personally, I don't like the modern rollies, specifically because the line is more blurry with some of these, IMO.

I gotta agree with the others who have said that the a watch like the SFSO does have an *asterix beside it's award. I had the recent dilemma of whether to get a couple of fully modded vintage rollies or something like a used SFSO via TZ . I think I'm probably happier with the MBK's than I would've been with the SFSO, but no doubt it's a really nice watch. There were enough good watches this year that it really comes down to personal preference. I would put the ceramic HBB's, as well as the MBK AP ROO and Cousteau Divers up there as well. There are some reps that are timeless, in the sense that they've been on the market for a while, and you can discover them as "new to you", even though they may not have been created in '07...which is a good option for people like me who buy all the new reps. No more I tell you!

Thanks for the comments all- Vic, I can understand where you're coming from, having a growing collection is more organic and natural I think. I was certainly of that mind for the vast majority of my time here...but I found that I was collecting watches more than I was enjoying them a individual time pieces. Also, as I learned more about watches generally, my interests grew more classic than they had been during my earlier phase, where I was looking for the newest, coolest sports chronograph. It's kind of nice to know that I'm partially liberated from the 7750 movement watches- even if I think they're more reliable than they get credit for...it's ironic, because for so long I thought it was cruel fate that I wasn't interested in many non-chrono watches. I don't want to say too much about the cost of the collection, but I've been pretty fortunate in picking up some of them used. I think you'd be surprised if you knew the total, and your valuation is off only because I think you calculated the MBW rollies without consideration for the dials, other than that, it's pretty accurate based on the current pricing- pm me and I'll give you my own estimate, if you're curious... As far as the idea of going with a gen...that's the one I wrestled with before I decided to sell off some of my collection and to mod a couple of vintage rollies, as the cost was going to get steep with the cost of gen parts. What settled it for me, is that I'm not really crazy about my SFSO rep, even though it's very nice. Most of the mid-grade watches in the range of what I'd be talking about were in the tag/SFSO/Sinn/Seamaster range. I came *really* close to buying a SMP, as I love that watch...but ultimately, it's the uniqueness of the modded pieces, and the learning process in their construction that won it out for me. I've learned that % of cost of gen is a factor for me in some of my decision making...for most people it's probably not a very significant factor. *edit- Thanks Vic, don't think twice about having curiosity about the dollar value, it's very much a factor in my rationale, as it is for most of us...it's experimenting with how I can differently distribute my resources across my collection that gave rise to this arrangement, and it's very much determined by my empirical tinkering with how best to distribute 'x' amount of $$ across a collection. I appreciate the comment about my writing- it's interesting because as I've been here, I've become more intrigued with different ways to try to describe the watches that we collect, in terms of relating their value, their strenght/weaknesses, etc... and I know that I'm never going to be a technical afficianado like so many here, so I'm trying to take a different perspective in communicating some of my perceptions about these beauties.

I'm really hoping that I can keep it down to these watches. I have a SFSO on gator that isn't pictured, and will likely be sold or traded, and a Chopard GTXL on a V strap that is also likely to get pinched by my new desire for a smaller collection- but otherwise, this is it:

Check out a small review of a pair of modded MBK rollies here: http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=64717

Well, this has been a long time in the works. I just received today the counterpart to my SeaDweller, the 1680 vintage sub. I'm very pleased with it...it came from another member, and any time I've dealt with a long-time member of this community it has been a pleasure. I wasn't initially taken with the vintage rollies. I thought they were very expensive replicas for the money. And they are expensive- but their ability to accept genuine parts is awesome. I've been eyeing the DW Daytonas, but those are in a whole other league- and I'm not sure I'm going to go there for a while, if ever. It's interesting- I've been collecting for over a year, but now that I finally got my collection down to what I want it to be for the long-term, I was surprised to realize that out of the 5 watches I'm keeping, three are from MBK. Before I got the vintage sub/SD, I thought that the Chinese rep makers were crazy not to have tried to rep the 1680/1665 case. I thought it would be as simple as doing a 'perfect rep' version of these watches. The reality is much different. There is an entire spectrum of aftermarket parts that vary in quality, and this is a market that is long established. The rep-maker to take on this project would not only be venturing into a lucrative area of the rep world, but would in parallel be a new source of aftermarket parts in the much broader rolex market. No matter how good an aftermarket part can be, there's just no way to get it perfect, no matter what you try to do, and that's what makes them reps. These watches have the ability to become almost genuine, with the exception of the movement and case...and of course you can always install a gen movement, if you should please. If I were a genuine vintage rolex collector, I would move over to creating an almost-gen watch without the hassle of servicing the expensive rolex movement or the huge $$ to have the serial # on your case. I believe that with Rolex, it's better to try to leave as little doubt, if you're going to go for the "replica rolex", if only due to the mystique of the genuines in the shadow of the zillions of reps out there. I feel they require the gen parts on the basis that you have some confidence of knowing what is on your wrist, not to say that the 'fact' they're genuine in itself has anything to do with it, in terms of 'branding'- I'd never lose sight of the ultimate purpose or value of reps...but rather, some key parts make a disproportionate impact on the appearance of the watch. Not only that the stock MBW's are wrong...but I wouldn't want my gen sub to have an aftermarket crystal or insert, even if it is 'acceptable' within genuine Rolex collector circles. I've still got to get the crown guards shaved down on the 1680, and a bracelet- don't think I'll go gen for that, as the older bracelets are often loose and not a great value, IMO. I have to intall an Ubi datewheel, and then she's good to go. The 1665 needs the gen 580 endlinks I've got for it installed, it was a little more touchy a process to remove the rep ones than I'd realized, and I don't want to destroy them unless necessary. There's no getting around the advantage that gen parts make. Especially in the most 'aesthetically significant' places, a few modifications can make these watches look amazing. It doesn't necessarily have to be that expensive- if you're able to swap the crystal, the insert for a good aftermarket, and lume the dial- the reality is that you're going to be 95% of the way there. The vintage lume work done by The Zigmeister and others is unreal. I'm thinking about getting my SD lume touched up a bit, just because I love his lume work on these vintage dials so much. Ah the dial. I feel that the dial is the most important feature on Rolex watches. And ironically enough, I feel they're a weak point of the MBW's. The red ones especially, but that's just obvious flaws like font and colour, etc.. not the actual quality of the dial. The vintage lume application can help, and no one's really going to call you out anyways, but I challenge those that have seen a genuine dial or even a really good re-dial to say that there isn't a significant difference. Note the coronet's, the 'X' in the name 'Rolex', and the fonts, etc...you will be tested on this information later!! The problem is the cost involved in buying one of these dials separately, and then having it shaved down for install. I've been investigating the idea of finding a source of cheap, good re-dials, but after speaking with Oli about it (who has done much more thorough investigation) I've realized that it's probably not going to be a realistic option any time soon. That's my rant about dials... As I just received the modded white 1680, I want to ask members: Are the dials genuine, standard MBW, or a good re-dial? *THIS IS THE TEST* Also, if someone knowledgable about inserts could tell me if the one on the sub is genuine, I would grateful. I think it is, but these inserts are tough sometimes...I can't remember whether it was advertised as genuine off the top of my head... One of the easier, better mods, is to swap out the crystals for gen tropics. In this case, a T-127 and a T-39 flat-top. Gotta go with the gen crown and tube, I haven't seen a rep crown yet that quite comes up to standards- although I've been shocked at how close. The sub has a slow-beat ETA 2846 movement and is significantly less smooth than my 'stock' movement SeaDweller. There really does come a point where you start questioning your sanity with some of these expensive pieces. I could've got lightly used gen SFSO or PO, if my understanding of their value is correct. So is this beyond the point of rationality? That's an open ended question...I basically decided to try out some of the newer watches that I was intrigued by, ended up with a larger collection than I'd really have liked, and also realized that I was not going to want to have to sell the watches I was going to end up with. If you decide to go full boat, and go for a gen insert, ubi datewheel, gen springbars, endlinks, etc.. it's venturing in the domain of diminishing returns. I decided to re-focus my collection to higher quality 'watches' that are evaluated and kept on the basis of their fit in my collection relative to the other pieces. The modded rollies are damn near indistinguishable from the gens in appearance, if done well....and I have come to love the comfort they offer- none of my other watches, nor any of the watches that I've owned, come close to the comfort of the vintage rollies, because most of my collection before this has been dominated by modern chronographs and other large modern watches... I always want to see wrist-shots in reviews, although I'm even worse at taking those than the still shots! Ill have to check one of the photo tutorials available to RWG supporters.

It's a nice design. I'm not going to be buying one...I don't see Porsche as an horological company. I know that there's a case to be made that Ferrari and other car companies have already established this market- but for me, why would I rather have this watch than a HBB? I don't know. I think that the rep makers have done poorly over the last six months. There haven't been many models that have been released that I find compelling..

Good thread, By-Tor, and I've always looked at the yachtmaster and wondered whether I shouldn't give the asian version a go. Wrist time is at a premium under my more 'mature' phase of rep collecting...I'm hoping to get my collection down to 5 or 6 watches that I view as long term time pieces that I want to keep forever. Strangely enough, out of the 5 core watches that I know I want to keep, two of them are modded MBW vintage rollies. I had very little interest in Rolex in general until I started get hooked on the history behind the sub and SD. There's no question about the common status attributed to Rolex by the non-WIS public. That isn't what appeals to me, in fact, it's what kept me from having much interest in their smaller watches for so long. It's the hobbyist aspect of being able to search for gen parts, deciding what is important for you, in terms of trying to balance $$ against need. Most people simply do not engage themselves to that degree in their decision to purchase a watch, even a gen, and therefore they usually do not end up saturated in the process of learning about the ground-up construction of the watch on their wrist. The vintage rollies are the only Rolex watches that I feel are truly convincing. I know it's a controversial statement, but if you're lucky enough to be able to swap out those dials for either a gen or very good re-dial, then you're stepping outside of most people's frame of reference about what typically looks like a fake watch. I think for me to wear a rolex, I'm hyper-critical of some of the flaws, and I have very little interest in their modern models. The problem is that they are very expensive relative to other reps, once they've been modded to where they need to be. That says nothing about the 'journey' of getting there- finding the right vintage insert to give it the right look (off a '73 red sub for my SD that makes the watch), to all the actual work involved in drilling lug holes and crown tubes, and shaving dials and crown guards, swapping movements and datewheels, crystals, crowns/tubes...

This is such a good idea...they did it for the Ingy, why wouldn't they do it for the fourth gen PO? I would buy one for sure. Do it right, though, a complete re-design...and while you're at it, release a new Seamaster that is super-rep quality as well. It seems fitting to me that the first watch I ever got would still be a pinnacle for me in terms of comfort and size and style, an Omega SMP 007. If I get a gen, it will be an SMP. My MBW rollies are pretty close, individually...makes me wonder, once in a while..

I can't help but wonder if part of Rolex's secret recipe for success as a watchmaker has been their hollow mid-link bracelet and traditional sizing. Maybe their traditional sizing works against them in the modern market with the larger size of popular watches- but in terms of every-day wear, there's no getting around the fact of their superior comfort level. My wrist is probably just under 7 inches, which is a little less than average. I'm sure you might know how guys who are undersized can feel when all of the other dudes are flashing around their 8+ inchers, making those fiddy's look scared . I love my MBW AP ROO, it's an awesome watch. But as a daily beater, it's probably too big for me to not be conscious of during the day. I appreciate a comfortable watch. It's underrated in a lot of our discussion here. After having owned a fair number of watches, I've started to value some of the simple things. I like wearing my 112 on crazy horse because it's comfortable with the leather strap. I decided to have a couple of all-purpose daily beaters that would be sub-style, of average size, that I can forget about while it's on my wrist because it weighs relatively little compared to some of the monsters that we all have come to love. Those will only come out at night. Probably from a shaded area of my closet.

Very cool. Interesting story...I can relate it to my own experience right now, as I have a pair of gen 580 endlinks for a SeaDweller that I want to install. I figured this would be relatively easy- but when I detatched the bracelet from the case and started to try to separate the rep endlink from the springbar, I aborted the operation and decided I wasn't ready for any problems since I just got the watch. I found that the tube for the springbar on the interior of the endlink was pretty much tearing when I tried to separate it. Is it worth it to consider destroying the rep endlinks in order to be able to swap them out? I figure if this is what I'm considering, I should turn it over to The Zigmeister or some watchsmith. What's the MBW bracelet quality like? I'm not sure what bracelet is on my SD, but it's very nice... excellent 93150 engraving and buckle.

Here's an older re-dial of a gen 5512 that has a chip in the paint around the 6 o'clock marker that measures 26mm and can therefore drop straight into an MBW 1680 case: Woops...just realized I lied...you'd have to cut the feet off...

Striving for perfection is one thing- I know that there's a law of diminishing returns when we're talking about modding these things. The curiosity I'd had was whether it could be possible to find a cheap way to deal with probably the most significant 'part' of a Rolex watch, in terms of the pecking order of what's used to determine authenticity. Some of the dial work that is done here is incredible. Stephane's MM and his aged dials. The Zigmeister is the master, and is the person I would want applying vintage lume to any dial, and he's in canada as fortune would have it. What a unique skill set he's acquired working in this hobby, same with guys like RepAustria. I'm not going to go off on a tangent, though. But the point is that the most popular genuine vintage piece- the 'red' submariner- is probably the most glaring example of the problem with the MBW stock dials. But what I'd like to generate more discussion about, is amongst those who have seen genuine or really good re-dial's of the vintages we're trying to approximate, in person. I think there might be more creative ways to try to work with this. For example, I've got a genuine 5512 dial that is fits the MBW case perfectly at 26mm, but has been repainted at some point, and needs to be re-lumed. I'm going to take a couple of pics of it and put it up with the rest of the stuff I'm clearing out shortly, and if there's any interest in seeing it, I'll post a pic here, too. Hey Oli, I haven't had a chance to thank you for the message you sent me about my own dial. I'm not sure that the gen white dials for the 1680's are quite that expensive. They can be, but I can find them for around $600 US in good condition, if given a little time. We'll have to stay in touch about this kinda stuff... In terms of the fitting of these dials into MBW cases... I have a SD with a dial that had to be adapted to fit, and damn if I can tell that it was altered in any visibly observable way- thanks to the expertise of the gentleman I am speaking with above. Also, I have a genuine 1680 white dial fitted in an MBW. You want to hear something crazy? I recently a saw a genuine dial that "must've been fitted to something other than a genuine case" at some point because it had been altered a bit to fit a smaller case. This was a nice dial, too. Probably in the range of a few grand, if I remember correctly. Here's the bottom line: For a lot of these watches, everything else is modded. Even the dial work that is done costs quite a bit. People will spend close to one hundred bucks to do their crown/tube, over a hundred bucks to do their insert (easily), a hundred bucks for endlinks- unless you can get them cheaper than I can, which is quite possible...but the point being that there's a lot of money spent on these cosmetic mods, that while important, are not as important as an authentic looking dial. I have heard it said here before that there are places that will do re-dialing for not that much money- like $100. I don't know much about the quality of these dials, but damn if that wouldn't be a lot of bang-for-the-buck if they could do a red sub dial reasonably well. There ARE re-dials out there that are good and pretty cheap as it is already in the market. I missed on a proper red 1680 sub dial that was refinished for around $100 that is driving me crazy still. The motivation for this thread was when I compared the dial on my white SD to the MBW DRSD dial. I was shocked. I haven't seen a genuine 1665 and been able to handle it and get a feel for the dial quality, so my observation has to be qualified a bit. My perceptions were subjective, and were based on finishing and empirical observation.

The problem wasn't the HBB, it was the ceramic bezels that were being used on the reps that are identical to the gens. There's no question that in the contract Hublot has with whatever factory produces these bezels in Japan, there stipulates that these bezels are only to be produced for Hublot. Considering Hublot charges 800 bucks for a new one, the problem for them would seem obvious.

You're exactly right By-Tor, and when I first posted the thread, the original post even specifically referred to the red submariner as possibly both the most popular vintage piece as well as the most flawed, in terms of the dial. I mean, it depends on what you need...you may not need it to be 100%, but it's pretty damn off. Part of what motivated this thread was not even my own need to resolve this problem, anymore, but just genuine curiosity about why it hadn't been attempted. Freddy, I hear what you're saying about the difficulty in obtaining a properly done dial. What's interesting is that I saw a re-finished red sub dial go on Ebay recently- I just happened to miss the auction- but it looked pretty good (red font was 'cherry' and smaller) and went for a little over a hundred bucks. I was mad I missed it, but at the same time it made me wonder about how hard it would really be. I thought that places like classicwatchparts.com or Ken-something dials that do mass quantities of refinishes, and will even supply their own blanks? Places like NDtrading are established sellers on ebay, as grey-market as they may be, and they're selling a lot of decently re-finished dials for around $350. You have to think that they're probably around $200 mark up over wholesale- from what little I've been able to gather about this market. I've had to already solve the issue, but I can't help but wonder if there may have been a less expensive alternative for others. Both of my MBW pieces have different dials. What can be quite surprising if you haven't seen a genuine vintage dial in person is that the MBW dials are really sketchy. The difference in quality between the dial on my seadweller, and the one on the DRSD I have that is stock, is pretty big...and I'm not even sure if the good dial is gen or not. Maybe I can further detail some of the differences later on...but one of them, just for starters, is the coronet. On my SD dial, the spikes in the coronet actually extend down all the way to the bottom of the crown where the tiny black oval marks the bottom of the emblem. Usually they just fade into white about a couple of millimeters or so before the black oval part. Problem is, I realize that there are genuine vintage SD's for which that is correct, I'm sure... You may wonder why that would be at all significant. Well, the difficulty in preserving the individual outline of each of the 'spikes' while they're essentially blobbed together is pretty high-detail work...I tried to take a picture of this, but wasn't able to get a clear one. Have you guys ever heard of "the drunken X" that some semi-knowledgable rolex people will talk about when identifying reps? Take a look at your standard MBW dial, the next time you have a chance. At least if it's like the DRSD. I sold the 1680 so I can't remember if that one was effected. But next to a good one, the rep 'X' looks like it's falling over to the right a bit... The swiss t < 25 actually touches the white second markers on the DRSD. The font of the text at the bottom looks wrong to me, and too consistent line-by-line, but that's subjective and it's tough identifying this stuff vs. the gen pics.... Another thing is the datewheel cut-out on the MBW dials. They're supposed to be trapezoidal or whatever, which they are, but the depth, size and angle of the 'cut' of the of the datewheel are all smaller or less pronounced.

The MBW 1680/1665 dials are not that great. They're usable- but I believe the dials are one of the weaker aspects of the watch that is generally not correctable for a reasonable cost. Most of the other stuff that is incorrect can be dealt with through the use of gen parts, but the dials are too expensive to that with most projects. I think that the 1680 red submariner might be the most popular MBW of all. And yet, the dial is weak and drives some of folks nuts (myself included). Why hasn't there ever been an attempt to figure this out? Wouldn't it be possible to arrange a group buy, where a bunch of people could get refinished dials from some wholesale re-dialing place? If it was possible to get a vintage dial that at least looked correct, and were printed on dials that would fit the MBW's without being shaved down, it would be a very big upgrade that might not be as expensive as people think.

I seem to have made a lot of mistakes, recently, and I've been around long enough now that I don't have any excuses. Currently, it looks like I might be out $1000 on two separate watch deals that look like I may have been scammed on. Not only that, but I had to take a loss on a watch I received from a dealer that hadn't been quality controlled like had been specifically requested about a week ago. The watch I bought before that, a MBW DRSD, came to me with the dial tilted, which I'm going to have to get fixed now before I can sell. Sometimes it's not really anyone's fault, but I'm shocked at some of the stuff people will leave out of their listings on the for sale forums-

Perhaps a better one, to judge size...I have smaller wrists as well:

fijikid, enjoy the sub before you go too crazy, but definitely the lume is the biggest thing, IMO. A couple of more wristies:

Awesome watch, PAM1A and good recap of how you came to build you collection. Maciek, you'll get one...I thought you were going to get the one on the FS forum? As long as it's available, I'm sure TTK can help. If you're not 100% set on the black Themes dial, consider the blue dial with indices. I know the numbers are nice, but unless I'm wrong (tastes change within your collection over time), but PAM1A, who probably has the most exposure to these bad boys next to TTK or the dealers, says that the blue dial is his favourite of them all. I'm not going to lie, I actually had the notion that the dial might be gen, when I first received it. It actually changes colour under different light. It will turn grey under low level lighting. Yes, I'm not joking- that's what made me think it could be gen...that and the micro detail level of the dial- far beyond what I've seen in Reps previously. That being said, I have to assume that the level of finishing of the black Themes dial is of exceptional quality also. Send the crystal out for double-AR, and oh boy. I honestly don't know- but it might surpass the ceramic HBB once it has AR.

I think that you may have to consider upgrading your membership to be able to access The Zigmeister's repository of information. That was something I believe The Zigmeister requested himself, not something the admins did to try to beef up the membership #'s to finance the hosting of the site. The admins are too nice to do it, so sometimes the users try to take some responsibility to either incentivize or otherwise directly help out. The double-AR coating services I believe all donate a portion of each crystal to RWG, etc.... I'm not saying you should or shouldn't upgrade, just giving you the low-down so you can understand how the decision came about.

Whoa, really? Solid deal. In my opinion, possibly one of the better rep deals going.

TWP, I really love that SS HBB. I miss that watch. I've got the ceramic version, but something about the stainless steel version has always attracted my attention-