mezzanine

...and I haven't heard a lot of buzz about new watches being released. Wasn't the Graham Swordfish supposed to be coming out at the end of this month? I can't say I really understand why there has been a lack of really intriguing reps being released. Honestly- since the Cousteau came out, what has been released that's really generated or warranted a lot of buzz? It seems conspicuous to me....there's been a huge gap between the time when the wave of 'super reps' were released, and where we're at now- which is probably the biggest lull in the rep watch world that I can remember over my very brief history of rep collecting. I wondered a couple of months ago whether there was a reason behind it...maybe the super rep maker wanting to maximize his profits on the current production models before releasing something new that would bump those watches down on the 'demand' curve. I guess it's a random process...that's what I've been told. But when you look at a watch like the aquatimer, how much time could it possibly take after you've got the production samples, etc...?

That's an interesting observation that I'm not sure I've ever really considered. One of the things I've recently discovered for myself, as far as trying to create a more genuine feel to my reps, is using a high-grade aftermarket strap in place of the bracelet/strap that comes with the watch. The SFSO, which is regarded as one of the best reps ever, has a slightly suspect bracelet. I think your observation is probably true of a lot of the nicer Omega reps, as well. I think rep makers try to economize their efforts to place the most attention to detail on the parts that are most typically evaluated for fidelity. Under this assumption, it would be likely that they would probably not give the same attention to bracelets as they would to dial details, etc.. The prices of gen bracelets are generally very expensive. You're looking over 500 for almost any bracelet of any genuine watch that you see replicated on the forum. Not a winning financial proposition for rep collectors- your proposed strategy of going after genuine bracelets. That's where I think using really nice leather is a good option...

The 024a is growing on me. What I think did it was azgjav's modded, 'vintagized' sub that he had for sale a while back...sometimes you can see a watch that doesn't look like the stock model, but rather is customized and has a unique look- and it appeals to you as a result...and then when you see the stock one after this 'conversion', you like it, whereas before you didn't.

This is a theme that has been discussed before, but I've been trying to observe the various stages that a person goes through when they're either starting or changing the composition of their rep collection. I think that the 'start' of a collection is probably influenced heavily by what preferences a person brings with them to the hobby. People come to collecting reps through different channels. Some are already watch enthusiasts, who turn to reps as a less expensive way of being able to explore their fascination for a particular brand. It seems like I've noticed this happen quite a bit with fans of Rolex, specifically, although I doubt it's exclusive to that brand. Reps offer a way to explore that already-established interest. For this category of collectors, I imagine that their evolution begins with acquiring all of the rollies that they've liked previous to the discovery of this community. I doubt it takes long for them to jump into the vintage pieces that require modification. Perhaps only then would they be likely to explore some of the other brands... Others likely create a collection based more on the reviews of what watches have been replicated well, with brand association being secondary. I think I fall into this category. I realized that there is a relatively wide range of quality of replica watches, and that it isn't simply a question of finding your favourite genuine watches replica counterpart. In another thread, I wondered about the 'theme' of various collections, and observed that 'sports chronograph' would probably best characterize my own tastes. But this thread is intended to be more about asking how your tastes have changed. Everyone comes to the hobby with a different set of interests that influences how their collection starts....but rarely does it stay the same as it was initially. Evidence for this can be seen easily with the pam enthusiasts, many of whom never were even aware of the watches prior to stumbling onto the forums. If I was going to try to chart the changes in my own collection and tastes, I'd have to describe it in terms of changing rationales for wanting a particular type of watch. As we become more educated in the choices we have, I think we evolve in sophistication. We're more likely to look to 'balance' our collection...whereas initially we may have been quite happy to indulge in our 'particular' favourite style or brand- which I think is probably in part due to the gradual un-doing of the programming many of us were used to, where the mentality of being able to own more than one or two luxury watches was not realistic. I had been mostly motivated by not wanting to telegraph the idea that I was wearing a rep when I first started. This kept me from buying rolex, and instead got me interested in Tags and Omegas. I figured that a lot of people were aware of fake Rolex watches, but that the likelihood of the average person being aware of rep Tags was probably less. What's ironic, is that from where I'm at now, I wouldn't buy a replica Tag. Then I would say that my interests moved in the direction of sports chronographs as a 'pet' style of choice. I think partially because the newer releases of watches were being done with the new 7750 movement, and the resulting discussion here spurring on my interest. Also, I think that I have always had a preference for chronographs. But what I think I found was that, if I have 4 watches that fit the same 'niche', what motivation do I have wear one over the other? I'm sure the Panerai fans are laughing behind their screens right now, perhaps their faces are also a little bit red with their own admission of having multiple watches that are nearly identical, but for me it has been a dilemma. From focusing on a particular stylistic preference, I think that when the "super reps" came out- with all the debate about their relative value, etc- I shifted towards simply going with the latest watch to come out of the factories. Instead of having either brand or style allegiances, my motivation towards forming my collection was dictated more by "what's the best rep out this month?". This had the broadening effect of exposing me to watches that I might not have otherwise bought. The Breitlings being a good example of this- the SFSO and the Evo. I began to look at reps as I would look at a technology based industry- you're better off with the latest and greatest. But now...and part of me wonders whether this is typical of the 'life cycle' of all longer-term collectors...I am starting to place higher value on having a watch that represents a distinct 'niche' within the watch world. I'm also more interested in blurring the lines between 'reps' and genuine watches. I would rather have the best of each niche, then two or three really good watches of a similar type. In terms of the comment about blurring the line between reps and gens...I don't necessarily mean that in terms of modding reps with gen parts, although that can be part of it- but rather, I believe it's possible with some watches to actually have a replica that is so close to the genuine that owning the gen wouldn't be worth it for me. So instead of having a bunch of sports chronographs, I'm looking to have a really nice Pam, and a really nice vintage rollie, to go with a few 'super reps'. I've come full circle...I don't think when I started out I really believed it was possible to have worthwhile reproductions of a rolex. Now...I do think it's possible...but only really if it's a modded one that takes me on a journey in achieving it's creation. I think the more popular brands are like an old girlfriend, who you sort of have a love/hate thing going on with. With the more popular brands, which I find myself becoming more interested in now, I think that for me to achieve a sense of satisfaction with them, it will take different things than simply a 'high fidelity' copy. This goes to an interesting discussion that I had with By-Tor a while back, where the question of why the MBW's are still the best game in town for vintage rollies, when it would be so *easy* for a rep maker to do a perfect copy of those watches, came up. Why would the most popular, and potentially lucrative watch for the rep makers be so thoroughly neglected? Perhaps they have an insight into the psychology of rep collectors at our level that we have underestimated. There's no question that the MBW's are not very accurate stock...and require a great deal of investment on the part of the owner to get them to the point of looking genuine. I think the answer is because we 'need' them to need so much work. We couldn't be happy with them if they came to us perfect, as the type of attention and resources that is required to get them up to snuff couldn't really be substituted as easily as we might think. There's no rep maker that's likely to be able to get the aged-dial effect, and tritium marker effect on a vintage rollie that I will require to feel comfortable with wearing a replica rolex. It begs the question, how much of the modification of brands like Rolex and Panerai are a result of our own need to 'work' them enough so that we achieve the feeling that they are good enough? It's not a question that I'm sure most collectors face, but it's one that I find myself discovering for the first time... One of my first jobs was selling gym memberships. We would do promotional offers where you could get a couple of months free. What I eventually observed was that if people didn't feel as though they had 'invested' in a membership by paying for it, they were unlikely to come to the gym. What I take from that is that, I think with the rollies and the Pams, sometimes we placate our feeling of dischord with the fact those brands are so widely replicated by 'investing' in them to diffuse that feeling, when in reality there's no difference (outside of our own neurotic minds) between our highly modded MBW and a canal street fake, in terms of how others may perceive it...

Vic, thanks for your guidance on the pam dilemma, I think that it's solved courtesy of the 112 that was on the 'for sale' board. I'm still thinking I'm going to end up with a 177h, but it's between that and a Fiddy. What's pushing me in the direction of the Fiddy is that I've got a ABP horned croc strap that I'm dying to try out on something...and it will only fit a 26mm lug width model... Here's what I was wearing today, just got back from seeing Tori Amos....

Good point about doing a lot of research to be sure that the parts you're looking to use are usable on the rep. I think that's where things are heading- reps that can use genuine parts without as much in the way of necessary modifications. The new 16610 that's being talked about looks as though it could have this potential- the bezel assembly looks exactly the gen. The lines start to blur together pretty quickly. It's starting to get so that if you're alright with using a rep case/movement, then a lot of the more aesthetic gen parts can be added to that base- and in the case of Pams, as well as a lot of the ETA powered watches, you can put together the same basic watch with a rep case/movement and gen 'parts' for significantly less than the real thing- while essentially having the same watch. The beauty is that usually you can cherry-pick the part or parts that is either most flawed on the rep, or is most critical to the appearance of the gen, and then economize your modding so that you use only those parts that are necessary to reach that point at which the believability factor reaches critical mass. The conceptual distinction between 'rep' and genuine watch becomes more subjective, the longer you go on collecting reps. To me, our hobby is so much more multi-faceted and compelling then collecting gens. There are exceptions- watches that are legendary or are composed of components that could not be easily replicated- but for the majority of watches, it's possible to hybridize our reps so that the difference is only their value. It is not hard to see why the more veteran collectors move in the direction of modifying as they move along with their collections. I find myself doing the same. I see a distinction- two rep 'universes' that co-exist together. The first is the universe populated by the super-rep. These tend to be watches that are not as commonly known by non-WIS types. There isn't as much modding needed to be done to these reps, and the reps themselves tend to be of newer models of gen watches. These are the reps that I believe are best modded by including things like a genuine strap, as in the case of the SFSO. The second universe is composed of the more popular brands, where modding is really essential to be able to create a watch of believable appearance. These tend to be the Pams and Rollies. Perhaps because of their popularity, there is more willingness to devote the resources toward modding them in ways that the reps of other brands don't inspire. These are the reps that respond best to swaps for genuine parts. I think it's possible that collectors pass through phases, where they move from one universe of concentration to the other. Myself- I was more compelled by the non-Rolex/Pam watches initially, but find myself becoming more intrigued with the additional artistic component represented by the modding that goes into the more popular brands.

I wasn't crazy about the 3717, but have warmed up to it a bit. Certainly not the first time that's happened-

Mixing in the right genuine part, or using a high quality aftermarket part, in the right places can make all the difference in creating an authentic-looking time piece. Of course, this is something that modders know implicitly, but the rest of us can benefit from applying this principle to increase the 'feel' of our favourite watches. In the discussion on the forum the last couple of days about the merits of collecting gens vs. reps, the real secret benefit to collecting reps may lie in the fact that rep enthusiasts become more aware of the componentry and part construction of their watches. That gives us a knowledge base to be able to venture out into the marketplace and play a type of 'arbitrage' game, whereby the right parts can be picked up and integrated to blur the lines between gen and rep. One of the reasons I really like the ceramic HBB, and have suggested that at it's original price, it was a veritable bargain, is that the genuine bezel 'makes' the watch- and does so by fufilling the practice of combining gen and rep parts in the most effective ways. The Steelfish looks great on the genuine Breitling straps. Pams, if you match them up with a genuine strap or go with a really good aftermarket option, are taken to the next level. The obvious one- the MBK rollies that accept genuine parts. The problem is that you can end up spending as much to accessorize or modify your watch, as you do on the entire watch. That appears like a dumb move, but the two 'worlds' operate on different financial principles. Like The Zigmeister has said with regard to the importance of maintaining your treasured replicas, a rep watch still operates within the same type of cost structure as other mechanical watches. As a result, as you start to create a collection, I think that the worlds can combine more and more. There is a much more stable market for genuine parts. The result is that you can mod some of your watches with genuine parts, and although they're costly, they retain their value, so you retain the ability to sell them for what you paid for them originally at some later point...the reason being that by virtue of being a rep enthusiast, you're more likely to not overpay for parts because of your greater knowledge level.

Victoria, do you like your 177 better, or your 112? I was very torn between those two recently, and decided on the 112, even though I like titanium watches... Still enjoying the white SFSO on "titanium" gator. I've decided to change the theme of my collection a bit, recently. I think the inspiration was partially motivated by how pleased I was with the way this combo turned out...

Congrats on getting your watch...can't say I'm not irritated to see that others are getting recently purchased watches from Silix, but I'm still waiting for my replacement order that originally was paid for at the beginning of august.

They are some fantastic pics taken by The Zigmeister, no doubt... It's unfortunate that there exists 'modders' that are irresponsible to this degree. At some point you've got to step back and acknowledge your own limitations, and source out the work to someone who is qualified to do this stuff. If you're tinkering around with an old sub, working on your lughole drilling skill for a future MBW project, that's one thing. It sort of reminds me of those ghetto "upstairs hollywood" medical schools, where you end up with people peforming plastic surgery without competance and butchering up their patients. This is some scary stuff for someone who literally *just* bought a modded 112 that cost an arm and a leg.

Ugh....I had a watch purchase that was going on when they took down the server. It was a more complicated deal, and I was awaiting some secondary info from a mod about the watch, and I see that he responded, but I can't login to check. I get the same thing as the other dude. This couldn't have happened at a worst time for me...I just hope that I can get back to my account. I've tried changing my password three times to no avail...

I much prefer reps. The super reps are damn near 90% of their gen counterpart. But what's even better is that, is the bottom-up approach that is required with the modded rollies and pams. The fact that the parts aren't 100% right actually promotes learning about the construction and components of watches. There's an opportunity to go through a project of putting together a watch from scratch, and that creates an experience that is far more intimate than walking into an AD.

I've owned both the MBK PP Nautilus, as well as the ceramic Big Bang, and while the Nautilus is nice- the point that I've seen come up again and again from those that own it, is that it's the gen bezel that takes it to the next level. One of the problems is that it's difficult to capture the bezel in photographs. The polished bezel surface is literally as reflective as a mirror, but the crystal's strong double-AR treatment is essentially invisible. This produces a neat aesthetic effect, whereby the contrast in shiny and non-shiny surfaces produces a very dramatic look. The finish on the bezel is unreal, and I think it's safe to say that we're going to continue to see the use of ceramic in our watches as time goes on. The machining of the pattern along the exterior of the circumference is high grade, and draws attention to the modular construction of the materials of the watch...and it too has a reflective property which seems to 'trap' light along the facets of the design. When light hits the side, it produces a converging light effect that focuses it along a geometric ridge in the corrogation to create a shine along a textured surface that doesn't look shiny on it's own. There's no other material that I can think of that could be used to produce the same type of effect. If you're talking about 'value'...I believe someone just found the site for the Japanese company that manufactures them. You can pick one up for $800, but if they're as 'backed up' on orders as they were a few months ago, then you may have an extended wait before you receive it. This isn't just some random part that happens to the authentic on the watch. Let's say the uPO's came with a gen bezel. It would be nice, but not altogether necessary, with the quality of the rep ones. But I think there is a purpose behind specifically sourcing gen bezels for the HBB. I think it is partially because the rep makers probably couldn't rep them to the degree of finish that the gen has, with their available machining technology. Maybe someone will step in, and suggest that they could- but part of what I believe makes this rep the best is because the gen part it uses would have probably been a weak point, if the factory had been forced to try to come up with their own. Instead, it makes the watch.

HBB should be there tomorrow.... I'm telling you guys, I wasn't that excited about the Steelfish until I made the strap switch. When I'd snapped the pics at the beginning of the thread, I hadn't actually worn the watch yet with the alligator strap. Normally I'd hesitate to put an exotic strap on a no non-sense diver, but this combo is awesome. The fact that it's grey makes it more complimentary to the white dial, then if I'd attached my gen black rubber. The grey is neutral, and the alligator grain of the leather is awesome in a more slick and masculine way because of the steelish tone of the colour. It's really hard to capture the look through the pics...I may try to snap a few more. It's taken a watch that I liked, but wasn't as thrilled with as, say, my ceramic HBB or Cousteau, and has put it up into that category.

lanikai, as far as the shipping- I didn't run into any problems. The strap took a few weeks to get, once payment had been sent. I haven't had any problem with customs issues, being in Canada...from China, HK, or even Europe. I think you'll be pleased with Aaron's work. I was torn between this and more of a tan/khaki colour, but after trying out a lighter strap on my white-dialed Chopard GTXL, I wasn't that sold on the lighter strap, lighter dial combo. At the same time, I don't like the gen Breitling rubber strap on the white-dialed SFSO. I find the contrast black/white isn't that complimentary- but to each his own.... I've got a black dialed Steelfish that I've been waiting for since early August that's going to get the rubber strap...

dastrix: the strap is genuine alligator from HKtan, one of the talented strapmakers on the darkside- cost was $99 shipped... The deployant is a rep Breitling deployant that I bought from one of the dealers. I'm wondering whether the strap might actually go better with my Graphite-dial Evo...?

Check out a few more pics here: http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=55051

A couple of shots of the white-dialed Steelfish SuperOcean and a genuine alligator strap I bought from HKtan. The colour of gator strap is 'titanium'. I have the gen black rubber strap as well, but that seemed a little too harsh for the white dial, and is reserved for the black dialed version that I'll hopefully receive soon... Notice the Breitling deployant-

...and it's the ceramic Hublot Big Bangs. It's hard for me to imagine things getting much better than this. Sure, there are a ton of great replica watches. There's an entire universe of stylistic bents to suit each personal taste. But there also is something to be said for an overall factor of technological achievement that serves as the analogous drive in the genuine watch industry in advancing the world of modern watches. You've got to have something hot in the market to be successful as a watchmaker, and the modern standard has got to be the Big Bangs. It's the Gerald Genta of the next generation. When you consider that this watch is so well replicated, I believe there is a true 'pinnacle' watch to own right now in the replica hobby. The gen bezel is the cincher. It takes an awesome base watch, that if you like, you really like. When you add the ceramic, the watch at it's original price is a tremendous value and opportunity to own something that looks amazing at a price proportionate to the gen that makes you feel sorry for the gen owners. It's awesome to be able to have the same essential watch for approx. 15% of it's retail price. It's a watch you really have to see to believe, the modern aesthetics are where it's at. You know it's good when you imagine that it could take a couple of years to see it be bested.

I'm wondering whether the colour of the hue of the AR that K222 has tested for the 'yellowish', presumably double, AR run means for having the most accurate crystal. I love the intensity of double-AR, and believe that the intensity is less significant than the hint of colour. The question is whether the single sided AR of the davidsen, having one sided interior AR which is the correct coating for the fiddy- or the yellow AR which I think is a more salient rep clue, because of it's observable sensory presentation when the crystal is rotated under a light source so that the crystal experiences a wide degree of exposure to different angles of light. The idea of a davidsen fiddy, modded with one of these crystals as being pretty impressive. Stronger AR just appears more stunning on a watch like that this type of dial surface area encased in the dome crytal, as far as my own personal aesthetics go- but the beauty of modding is that hopefully there's room for both, which is way cooler to me than not having such a significant aftermarket upgrade for any watch that has AR or uses it. Stronger is better!

It's entertaining to me that they think the raised lettering on that buckle is an 'anti-counterfeit' measure. The anti-reflective coating on those crystals is very strong...hard to believe it's only single sided-

Honestly, I would get a HBB Stainless Steel, and not just because I'm selling one right now. Maybe a Cousteau or a DSN Fiddy, if not the HBB.

I'm not sure...I suspect I'd like the '07 one better, but I have the '06 and am pretty comfortable keeping it. I think the Cousteau is the most underrated of the super-reps. I think it's the best rep of the year, whereas the SFSO seems to command that title from most people. The Cousteau has the strongest AR of any of the super-reps, IMO. It's definitely better than the BCE. I feel it's better than the Steelfish, and I think it's a more accessible watch than the HBB.

There's definitely room for speculation on the issue of the timing of releases- no question. If Puretime hadn't brought us into the loop with the series of super-rep releases, then I probably would've been speculating the same thing between the time that the SFSO was released, and the release of the Cousteau. That was a pretty big gap, too. The question of our influence is also a speculative one that I've heard different explanations on. My gut tells me that there isn't a huge number of people that would drop the kind of $$ that we are on replicas...whether they're super-reps or not. I don't know what the street price for a HBB is in guanzhou, but I would guess it's half what we pay, max. It's possible there's a strong local market amongst tourists and perhaps the rep maker for the super reps directly supplies some distributors for asian/european tourist markets. But the problem I see with that theory is that you kinda need a specialized market for these watches. I don't know if there's broad enough exposure to buyers in 'the real world' to create a business opportunity for brick-and-mortar types of distributors. Not many folks off the street are going to be willing to drop 500 bucks on a rep. I've wondered whether the idea of a major market outside of the internet is a story created by some of the cartel dealers to pass the responsibility of the pricing onto the factory, and not themselves...or their joint decision to create a higher margin on those watches. In terms of the timing question.... If you imagine you're the super rep maker, and you're brainstorming ways to maximize your profits, then how could you go about doing it? Most of your costs go into R&D. You don't get your profits for releasing new watches. You get your profits for selling as many watches as you can of a single design. If you accept that, then the question becomes, how can you maximize the # of watches sold of any particular design that you've reverse engineered and meticulously duplicated? It's not by releasing new models that would push the demand for the ones you're mass producing down in volume. It is not in the rep maker's best interest to release a ton of new watches. If they can make it so that every collector wants to own a SFSO, because there isn't a PVD Skyland creating competition against it, then you're not going to release the Skyland before you've made sure you've saturated the market with SFSO's and maximized your revenue for that model. Why would you introduce competition against yourself? The number of buyers of reps who would buy both a SFSO and a Skyland is not high. It's like Intel having a monopoly on computers...and they release a new cpu design, and without any outside competition or pressure, releasing another design to compete against themselves.