mezzanine

Quality control issues are a real issue- resolving them is expensive and time consuming. Shipping back to China is both risky and expensive...one of my biggest concerns with any transaction is to try to avoid having to increase the cost of the extraneous factors- shipping, doing *anything* to a replica watch is inherently poor value, as the work is as expensive (for the most part) as doing them to gen watches. That's the thing that I feel Davidsen has an advantage on- he gets the mods all done in one package, without absolutely breaking the bank. You don't have to incur shipping costs to various modders, etc...as well as paying for the work. However, you add quality control issues to the equation, in terms of the % of watches that have those issues, you immediately nullify those savings or any advantage to going with him as opposed to TWP.

This has been 'rumoured' for a couple of months now, but getting a conclusive answer would be very valuable- especially considering the ease of swapping the 'old' style movement for ETA.

section8, that 177 looks awesome. I love the titanium pams, and the 177h is my favourite of all of them. And even to a pam-newb like myself, the Davidsen 177 looks immaculate. Almost enough to persuade me to go with the 177 instead of the fiddy to start. I have heard the comment about getting mods done after-purchase from The Zigmeister or others as a preferable option to going through davidsen, in fact, Flav even mentioned this a while back- saying that Davidsen may have slipped a bit recently. With the availability of AR coating now through k222 and Chief, davidsen's monopoly on having the best crystals may not be as significant a factor- and I think he sells them individually anyways. The problem I have with paying for aftermarket mods, is that the price quickly escalates to very expensive territory. I imagine that the aftermarket modded watches are probably better- for example, I'm not sure if Davidsen's lume could touch what Vac does for TWP's pams...and as was mentioned with the 'cosmetic' fix vs. the actual fix that The Zigmeister does to the cannon pin problem.

Good guidance, V....I'll certainly keep it mind as I hunt for a Pam. The 112 is appealing to me as well, but I like the titanium models more in the 44mm category. I'm sure his 177h is really good too- and I could see myself ending up with one of those as well as the fiddy. The fact that it really does have a superior level of finish to the standard pams should be inpiration enough for me to give it a shot. My definite preference would be to try to find one used, where I could avoid the issue of having to go through the process of acquiring one from asia. But as you observed, they're not very numerous on the sale board. It's the one time that you have a problem- like you're acutely aware- that makes you hesitant. It's not even so much the problem, but rather the problem of having no incentive on their end to resolve it once the sale has gone through, and the extremely long amount of time that it can take to get it sorted out. I'm a huge stickler for AR, and I've read Davidsen has the best AR among the dealers.

The ferrari's are an example of me having to confront how deep I've got into this hobby....there are a couple that intrigue me, but then when I mentioned them to a buddy, they stared at me with a look of bewilderment. That's when I knew that they were off limits. It's hard to deny that they're of a higher quality than the average pams. It's sort of like the regular pams get passed over by the super-rep maker....but the ferrari's are an indication of what they could be, if they were given the same attention level. This is all speculation on my part. It seems to me like Davidsen is something of a 'boutique' not unlike MBW.

Very useful info, V. I think that it's important not to censor ourselves too much, as far as how we describe our experiences. I can understand why there's an established culture of supporting dealers, but painting a realistic picture of the buying experience is ultimately what keeps quality control and communication up to standards that are otherwise not possible via the net. I'm thinking I'm going to try to acquire a Davidsen fiddy in the second hand market, to try to circumvent the possible hassle of poor communication and potential quality control. Problem is, I hardly ever see the new ones for sale. I take that as a positive sign of the quality of the watch. It's interesting how the world of pams are in some ways very inclusive and seperate from the rest of the rep landscape. It's difficult to know what standards to apply when coming into this 'world' from the outside. The measures I've used to apply to super reps or even rollies is much different.

This is the conclusion that I'm arriving at myself, after having asked this same question. The finishing on the new rose-gold plated ferrari is exceptional- probably the best that I can remember seeing. It's unfortunate that the ferrari's are not my cup of tea.

Very impressive watch. I'm not much for gold, but if I was, this would probably be near the top of the list. Especially with the really strong AR- I feel with large crystal diameter watches that it's a necessity.

I'm curious about this too. I've come to appreciate 'fit and finish' more than actual fidelity to the genuine watch. The reason I'm inclined to go with Davidsen is because I've heard his watches are better from the perspective of 'finishing'. The Panerai's are tough for me, as someone coming to them from the 'outside'. My experience with reps so far is almost exclusively with 'super reps'. As a result, that's my standard. Panerai's are by design simpler watches. The finishing standards that I'd apply to my HBB may not be the best measures for evaluating Pams. I have no room in my collection for watches that don't meet the most exacting standards, in terms of their overall quality. It's hard to know how the Pams correspond to the developments in the rest of the rep world...same as with Rolex. With rolex, the watches tend to become better in direct correlation to the gen parts that are used in modding. I 'get' that standard more than I do the Pams. The one I'm interested in is the 127. The watch just grabs me.

While I think that Silix's new version is a great value, the other 'value' HBB does not strike me as a tremendous value. Consider that it's fitted with the old asian movement, as well as not having AR. With the newer version, I think it's more indicative to add twenty bucks to Silix's price to bring us in line with the average price with EMS shipping. I went with the discount shipping offered by Silix and found that it took an inordinately long time to receive my watch. Getting a watch AR'd costs about 75 bucks when you factor in the removal and re-seating of the watch crystal. If you were asking me whether I'd rather pay around $310 US for the discount big bang, AR'd aftermarket, I think that it's a better deal than the super-rep cost...provided it's the new 7750 asian movement. Make it the old asian movement, and I'd rather pay extra for the better 7750. I also found that when the cost-analysis was considered with the asian vs. ETA SFSO, the benefit of the cheaper model became less clear. For example, if you pay $130 US for the asian, get it AR'd for 75 bucks, then the cost difference between the asian and ETA is pretty much exactly the cost of the movement.

Would it not be possible to arrange for a dealer to pass on a wholesale price to the VIP memeberships for a particular desired watch (ie: SFSO), whereby the purchase of those watches at cost from a dealer could provide enough margin so that it could incentivize new members to become VIP's to gain access to these 'special deals for VIP's', and at the same time provide a % of the sale price to RWG in the form of a donation? Basically, what I'm suggesting is this: RWG arranges with dealer(s) to provide a specific popular model for each month at the dealer's wholesale cost. This reflects my belief that the dealers that profit from gaining referrals from this site should be part of the financial solution required to maintain it's existence. It's smart business for the dealers to recognize that a significant % of their business comes from RWG, and to find a way to contribute to it's continuation. This may take some hardballing on the part of the admins, with possible ultimatums to cut dealers from the website that aren't willing to play ball. The watches are provided to VIP's at a price that is $20 above wholesale- with the $20 going to a 'voluntary' donation to RWG. This assumes that the average retail cost of most watches, for example, is $50 above the wholesale price. At $30 less than the retail price, the incentive to upgrade to a VIP membership becomes more tangible. This would incease the number of casual users who would sign up for the VIP, as they would recoup the cost of VIP membership in their first watch purchase. The value of being a VIP to a casual member is more clear. This would also increase the revenue of the site, by offering another revenue stream other than VIP upgrade to supply funds for the site's maintenance.

One of the fundamental differences I have with those that would take the site private, in terms of their rationale, is in my perception of the very nature of how the internet operates. I believe that the arguments making analogies to public libraries, etc... are not valid. Internet message boards are information sharing forums for open communication. They are inherently 'democratic'. I believe that, if the site was to be changed such that the majority of useful content required membership, we would see a departure of the casual reader/user. The psychology of the typical reader of this forum is such that they would seek out a forum that did not require them to pay money to share information and discuss watches. The sad thing is that it's a response that has been conditioned by expectations formed by years of surfing sites that do not have the same cost of being maintained as RWG...rather than being a reflective evaluation or 'choice' to disregard the reality of RWG's hosting costs. I believe what would happen is that either another watch forum would start up, or one of the other existing ones would absorb most of the casual-user traffic from this site. As content as many of the older members would be to see the casual user base dry up, what I don't think they fully understand is that the lifeblood of the community is based in the constant ebb-flow of new users joining and old members going away. How many of the regular posters here have joined the site in the last year? I bet you it's a significant %. I believe that most people take a 'path of least resistance' approach to this type of thing, as evidenced in the donation % of users. Most of the average users, including the ones that will develop into more active participants, would simply migrate to the next forum with a more open policy. This is also one of the reasons why I don't really buy into the "how much has this site saved you, therefore you should donate" reasoning that most agree with. I believe that it doesn't acknowledge the reality of most internet users, which is that they would find the information on their own somewhere else...if they're determined to find it. That's going to really [censored] some folks off, but my idea of how to try to help out is not to serve up platitudes of how the admins are victims of the selfishness of the human condition, but rather to offer an honest break-down of the dynamics of how I perceive this situation and offer potential directions that can actually help solve the problem.

A lot of good responses- I posted this in another thread, but figured that it was more appropriate here:

This is an interesting thread- and I think brings to light a lot of the issues that have been going on recently with the 'service' the site provides, and the subsequent relationship that bears to the the communication of value that information has to the dealers on the site. When I first saw the thread, I thought that this would be a good general topic for the members. That's my democratic impulse that values sharing information that is usually intrinsic to the culture of message board usefulness that is dominant on the internet. But it's not quite that simple, because the economics of the existence of this very forum precipitates that a high % of it's readers/posters donate $$ to pay for the infrastructure of security that the admins require because of the grea-area nature of the legalities of replicas- which is correspondently higher to cover the cost of 'off-shore' servers on a monthly basis. My idea of a solution is to continue the goal of open information, and at the same time explore a more entrepreneurial direction that centers on forum users to subsidize a percentage of 'funds' to be directed in a secondary manner to the admins in the form of donation sales that are whoesaled by a dealer(s) at cost to cover a dozen watches to be sold for the full price with profits going to RWG for the maintenance of the site. Perhaps even there could be a discount and still a profitable and mutually beneficial 'group buy' only for VIP members. Where the donation is $20 bucks per sale, but there was still a significant discount on the retail price available to the general market. This would be an acknowledgment between the dealers and usership of the mutual value of maintaining this online relationship. No profit for a dealer- strict wholesale, and it doesn't even need to be on a variety of watches, the month could be ETA SFSO at around silix pricing- assuming that there is a dealer that's willing to play ball. This would also increase the general volume of readership who would opt to pay the 'membership fee' to get in on the 'group buy' that would occur at significant discounts. The value of the membership would be more clear to the average user. I think price disclosures are an inevitable and acceptable part of the value of this type of online format. The full articulation of the relationships between price and value are not so clear, from only this piece of raw data, as would seem linear to the person employing a decision tree that is only factoring price as their criteria for purchase. The advantage of being a member would be in gaining this price advantage as well as a more tranparent and researched/developed relationship with the sales agent- with a quick, communicative and informed idea of the value of this on-going relationship, and the rewards for being a regular purchaser of the best replica watches. I also think the sale, whether used or otherwise, of MBW/MBK watches should be restricted to the VIP area of the board, but that's not really realistic anymore, with their expansion of availability into the regular market.

I can't imagine the bezel on the cheaper version having the same reflectivity of the ceramic. The polished ceramic is almost mirror-like. Seems like a nice alternative, though.

Yeah, it would be difficult to implement a sales system through the forum that wouldn't end up causing more problems than it solved. If I had *any* technological expertise with the internet, I'd be brainstorming ways to use cheaper hosting services without giving up the anonymity that is necessary to provide security. Maybe 'taxing' the sales system, whereby any watch that is sold via the forum has a % that goes to the site...sorta like Ebay. I guess that's already in place with the VIP thing. I think this is the right way to go- trying to find new, creative ways to attack the problem. If I thought the pressuring of non-contributors would be very effective, I'd advocate it- I just don't see it being effective. Shutting down the site to non-members would limit the bandwidth cost, which would be effective.

Thanks for the guidance all. I'm going to go for it!! I'm obsessed with that watch now. Interestingly, it's the only Pam that really appeals to me. Also, that Bulgari really appeals to me.

I can understand why anyone is frustrated with non-donating members...but why not try to come up with some ways to make money for the site, instead of lament the reality of the circumstances? What could be done to get things on track? Maybe load the site up with advertising for non-donating members? Big ass flashy banners all over the place. I know that some sites have it where you get re-directed with almost every mouse click to a 'timed' advertisement, which stays on the screen for 15 seconds and then goes to the page the person is seeking out. I'd like to see the dealers have to contribute something for all the referrals that they get through the site. I presume there's already a structure in place that may require them to subsidize their inclusion on the forum...but maybe it's time to change the terms of that relationship. I'm throwing it out there, only to try to brainstorm. What if the admin was to start selling watches through the site, himself? Basically source a distributor in china, buy them wholesale, and sell them through the site for profit to be used to pay for the maintenance of the servers/hosts? I know it would be a lot of work for the admins...basically starting a small business through the site...but even if they were to be able to sell a dozen watches a month, with say, $50 a pop profit- they might be able to cover the lag in costs. Is there any way to use domestic/cheaper hosts? Maybe there is a technological possibility that hasn't been explored- an IP randomizer or some type of security software that could be implemented at source, that would allow for the use of a cheaper server?

I am curious whether, if I can pull off a HBB, I'll be able to pull off a fiddy? For some reason the HBB doesn't feel too big on my smaller wrists, but slap on a uPO, and just the way the watch 'sits' makes me feel as though it's way too big.

You two have got it bad! But as much as I'm tempted by those numbers, I can't help but feel it would detract from the quality of the watches. What I mean is, there aren't that many replicas that are 'really' good. Probably about twenty, that I could think of off the top of my head...and even then, I think you could narrow it to 10 really nice watches that are currently available. What I've found, is that with each additional watch, I'm decreasing the % of time that I can wear my most treasured pieces. V, for yourself in particular, I can't imagine that there are many of those 60 that could compete with the DSN fiddy you've got. I've resigned myself to keeping my collection at less than ten, and ideally five or six really 'elite' choices, so that I can wear my best watches the most.

Wearing my fave- ceramic bezel HBB.

Sports chronographs for me...usually the higher end ones the better- HBB ceramic bezel, stainless steel. HBB Stainless steel. Cousteau Diver '06 model BCE graphite I have others, but those are the primaries. I eagerly await the release of AP ROO with seconds at 12, as well as the Graham watch that is in the pipeline. I like unique looking watches- therefore anything that looks original is preferred.

I agree that the quality of AR on watches can vary tremendously. For example, I'm not even sure that the AR on the asian Chopard GTXL's is even AR at all. And the double AR on the BCE's is not of high quality- whereas the AR on the Cousteau Diver is very nice. Personally, the idea of a quality double AR coating on a fiddy crystal (davidsen's) is tantalizing to me, regardless of it's fidelity to the original. I know I would be in a small minority having that perspective, but I am as much about the quality of the appearance of the watch itself, as I am in maintaining strict similarity to the 'original'.

I had you pegged as a 'wonker' pretty early on, ryannon. Don't attempt to lump everyone who donates in with you, it does them a disservice. You're certainly not the type of keep mentioning that you're a contributor over and over in a self-aggrandizing manner- that would reflect a lack of class that you obviously are well-above. /sarcasm off Get over yourself, dude.