mezzanine

I think we're all programmed, because of the whole rep thing, to want accuracy at the expense of anything else. I believe that as 'watch enthusiasts', there's a line between desiring consistency/accuracy, but also being open to aftermarket types of improvements and mods. Pam enthusiasts don't go nuts over the idea of using non-genuine straps...there are some great aftermarket straps out there that are even better in quality. I think the AR issue is a good example. I think almost every watch improves in appearance with good double-sided AR. Also, crystals are a funny thing...people don't notice them in the same way they may notice some dial irregularity. If you got a crystal double-AR'd, that was only single coated stock, or not even coated at all...people wouldn't notice, because it's the crystal. It's by definition not something that jumps at you consciously- it's an unconscious effect, the impact it has on the appearance of the watch. But a damn nice effect.

My feeling is that even watches that don't come double-coated would still benefit greatly from having it done. The Omegas and Breitlings especially- those watches should be double-coated, every one of them, IMO.

At the end of the day, I think that we're all united in wanting to find a way to help. I've wondered about doing a monthly raffle, whereby a dealer donates a "super rep" either at cost or free, and people can buy tickets at $5 a pop to try to win the watch. Maybe that dealer becomes the 'featured' dealer in a sticky at the top of the page for that particular watch, for that particular month- and agrees to sell it at a group-buy price. There are certain aspects of the site that I think could be leveraged. I believe that the dealers are part of the answer here. They get a wonderful referral system through this site. I'm sure they pay for it through other means, but finding a way to engage them in making an effort to keep RWG going benefits them greatly. They are invested in the success of the site for a % of their business. Maybe load up on advertising...like big flashy banners. And I'm not sure I agree that VIP's should be able to turn them off. The VIP's, as a %, are probably a disproportionate amount of the bandwidth. We could have click day, where whoever clicks the most ads that day wins some donated prize- a strap or something reasonable. I'm just throwing stuff out there. I know that if we collectively get creative, we can come up with some solid ideas. That to me is a far better attitude towards solving this problem than to start cannabalizing the other members and creating division.

You are an exception, then, ryannon, because I believe that the average user believes that a site should be able to finance it's own existence through advertising. That's the nature of the internet. It is important to understand the psychology of most internet forum members if you're going to find a way to change that psychology for an exceptional circumstance like this one. I help run a forum (RealGM) that uses exponentially more bandwidth than this site, but does not require outside financing because it is a typical internet forum that is run off of domestic servers that can be subsidized through google ads due to the cheap hosting costs. The average forum users experience and conception of the finances of online forums is much more in line with that type of cost-structure. This is the internet. It is based on the free sharing of information. Try to say that the information is a privlidge or commodity doled out selectively by those financing the site, and you run the risk of 'putting off' those users who have gone many years operating under a different premise of where the 'value' of an internet community comes from.

I would again voice my concerns over creating an 'adversarial' tone towards enlisting donations. Not because I would like to further [censored] off members who believe that it is necessary, but rather, because I feel it jeopardizes the long-term future of the site. Attempting to 'commoditize' information on the internet is a very difficult proposition. Not because there isn't a reasonable basis to suggest that non-paying users profit from the information without an understanding of the finances of the system they are benefitting from. Rather, this site has an unusual cost-structure the casual user is simply unaware of. Most internet users would react negatively to the notion that information is being 'commoditized' by administrators of a site, because the free sharing of information is the organic quality of the internet that everyone now instinctively believes will occur. They will view an attempt to 'force' donations as mis-guided, and an attitude that occurs out of the belief that users cannot find the information else-where. The reality is that someone who comes to this site credits themselves with having found a community of information that benefits their users as a collective. The flow of power is always from the members to the community on the internet- not from an 'elite' group of people to the end users- within a message board format. Attempting to change that 'flow' of perceived value will have negative consequences. Essentially, what you some of you are saying is that you 'own' the information that non-paying members are profitting from, and that you will 'take it away' if they do not contribute monetarily. Most new members contribute their time and effort before they contribute their money. You are unwittingly sabotaging the process by which new members *eventually* become donating members. If you attempt to negate the value of non-monetary contributions, you negate the real backbone and origin of value of any internet community. People perceive this attempt to commoditize information, and take it as an affront to their ability to research information. If I discover a website that has good stock tips through my own research, contribute to the stock information, and am then told that I 'owe' for the info I've 'discovered' freely- I am likely to take it as an affront to my ability to find such information on my own. I say this not to antagonize matters further, but to try to elaborate my feelings on how best to create an atmosphere that will encourage further donation from those that have not yet donated. That's the perspective I think some of you have lost. You're looking at this from veteran, already-donated member perspective. That's perspective is not going to benefit this site, in terms of getting 'new' donations from currently new members. You've lost touch with what it was like to not have the perspective on the site's finances that you do. This is an atypical internet site, because of it's need to host in a special, more secure manner. As a result, those that are unaware of this will not understand why their donation is required. Most forums are able to be self-sustaining off of google ad revenues. I am only outlining the exact process I've gone through in understanding why I need to donate. If you try to tell me I "better" donate, I simply won't. Members need to discover it on their own, openly and without fear of reprisal, in order to make that voluntary donation. It's the only atmosophere under which enlisting donations can be effective.

This is exactly what I'd been hoping for when the request went out last month. I believe that this is the best way to get users to upgrade/donate...explain why it's needed, what the money will be used for, and what the upgraded membership provides. People are more generous when they know exactly why their help is needed. It's not about being 'cheap'. I got ridiculed when I asked for this type of information before, but it wasn't because I was suspicious of the admins intentions or honesty with the donated money. Rather, it was because I felt that providing the background information for why support was needed in a clear and open manner is a much better way of recruiting donations than attempting to 'guilt' non-donating members through belittling them. Granted, the admins did not engage in that behaviour, but it did occur as part of the attempt to motivate donations by some current donating members. I do not support that behaviour, as I feel it splits the community and actually dissuades donations from current members who are contemplating the idea of donating. The value of any online community comes from the open attitude of welcoming any and all visitors to engage and participate in the community without fear of being ridiculed because they haven't yet chosen to donate. Ultimately, creating a welcoming atmsophere for all members is the best recipe for insuring the future survival of RWG. It creates a community culture whereby new members feel accepted. Therefore, new members will join and increase the traffic of the site. As the site traffic increases, the % of those new members who will donate because they value the site will increase. The answer for solving this problem rests in extending the friendly atmosphere of free information and support to everyone. That's the type of community people want to donate to and to be a part of on a more significant level. I congratulate the admins for providing a clear picture of the current situation with hosting, and would love to donate as a result. Provided it's welcome, of course, as I wasn't very friendly when I said I wasn't going to post here in the future- as a result of my perception of the negative vibes that were being directed at non-donating members. If not...I'll still donate, I just won't post.

I've actually run an online forum that has exponentially more daily users than this forum. I am familiar with some of the economics of running an internet community. My reason for asking for clarification was not to belittle or invalidate the contributions of others or the admins, but was simply to ask for some explanation as to why my donation is needed, with the underlying assumption that there are financial implications to running this place that I am unfamiliar with- due to the specific challenges involved in running this community. I will take fact that my request has been met with condescension as an indirect answer to my question and take my leave. Good luck to the good folks here- I know that most people who participate in this community are what makes the community valuable. I think that some may have lost perspective on that, but then again, if I was on the 'inside', maybe I wouldn't feel that way. See a problem there? Probably not...but I'd venture to guess that you're going to continue to have this problem until you do... Good day!

See, people are simply going to get defensive about my questions, and that was relatively predictable. If you believe that imploring people to donate through belittling is effective, then I won't be surprised if the financial problems of this message board continue well into the future. I believe it fundamentally fails to understand the reason why there is a problem in the first place. It breeds an 'us vs. them' mentality that is quite alienating to the average user, as opposed to identifying the real reasons why there may be a proportionately small % of visitors who do not donate. You perceive my comments as "well, if you don't understand the value of the community, then so be it". That manner of trying to enlist contributions is not terribly effective. I don't believe those doing it are helping the admins at all, but that's just me. All I'm asking for is clarification. I am happy to leave if that is asking too much. I personally believe that clarification might be more meaningful in enlisting donations than your method. I could be wrong on that, I can only speak for my own perceptions.

This goes to the questions I've posted in the thread currently discussing the need for more members to upgrade to VIP memberships.

A 'scumbag' or whatever you want to call the people that have been around for a while who haven't yet donated, has some questions regarding membership. I'm someone who needs to understand the value of what they're paying for. I've got no problem paying the money for a membership. But I am still ignorant about some of the reasons why it is required, and what it is that I am getting. I'm hoping that there can be some elaboration on some of my questions. Perhaps my questions will not be viewed as worth answering, and in that case I will probably withdrawal my participation in the forum, but if they are answered with what I believe is a legitimate effort to clarify some of these questions, I am ready to donate. I've been under a variety of impressions about why these donations are needed. I've got no problem donating to a 'charity' or whatever- but I would like to know how the money is being used. Does my membership entitle me to a break-down of the financial costs of the forum, and how the money is being allocated? When people would criticize Warren Buffett for his lack of charitable donation, he would usually reply by commenting that the charities are often very poorly arranged, in terms of their business practices. They often are not good at maximizing a dollar, and as a result, he felt that the money was better left under his control, whereby he could continue to grow the money and donate at a later time when there was a charity that could maximize the value of his donation. I've been a moderator of a forum that has many many times the traffic volume that this site does. It is not a pay forum. They have been able to subsidize their existence by using advertising to cover expenses. This has not been a sufficient financial solution for this forum and I would like to know why. Perhaps it's because there's a need to avoid publicizing the forum, or perhaps it's a conscious decision on the part of the admins to avoid cluttering the board with advertising. I notice that there is a 'radio' feature, there are interviews (ie: is the long-distance phone call to TTK being paid for by forum members?), and other such 'upgrades'. These are not upgrades I would see as prudent to my experience of the forum, but that doesn't mean they're not worthwhile. Is there a voting system for determining how these allocations of capital are employed? I've been told that "if the information on this board has saved you money, then pay up". It's a type of information-mafia or something, whereby protection from the shady world of replica watches is provided by this community...but "you need our protection". I guess it really depends on how you feel about the free flow of information, and whether the open communication among people in a forum environment can be 'commoditized' by the people running the forum. I'm relatively bright, so are most people, and I think that you would find that even if this place didn't exist, there would be another that would serve a similar function. That is the beauty of the internet, but again, this is my perception and I am very open to the idea that there are critical gaps in my reasoning that only someone with an informed opinion would be in a position to clarify. In terms of 'protection'....I see some potential problems with this. The rep game is pretty shady to begin with, and as a result, prudence is warranted not only in terms of the choice of dealer, etc... but also in terms of the communities that talk or market these replica items. Call me a pessimist. I notice that there are dealers here that price-fix and misrepresent their items, and yet they are featured dealers. Guys like Paul of Wo-Mart are dealers, and yet they have a long history of shady dealer practices. I notice that the second-hand market is often populated by watches that are priced at or above their new price from dealers. Hey, I believe in a free market just like the next guy...but I do notice it. We can argue the value in "hey, you're getting this watch from the states, and don't have to risk customs, etc..." but another major forum has made an effort to curtail this practice. Does the VIP (which is required to sell here) entitle me to gouge newbies? I notice modders that essentially use the 'trade board' as a vehicle for selling watches that otherwise should be considered 'dealer' watches. Are the servers stored in over-seas locations that require more security than cheaper options, due to the shady nature of replica-talk? I personally believe that complaining about the lack of effectiveness of the membership system, and the small % of visitors that actually donate, is more reflective of a failure to outline the value of the membership, then the natural online behaviour of 'scumbags' and others that need to be strong-armed into donations because of the darkness and vagaries of human nature. Perhaps if there was more transparency, in terms of why the $$ is needed, as well as how it is employed, then there would be greater numbers of people that would feel comfortable donating. I can say that for me, personally, that's the reason I haven't donated to this point.

If you'd have me in the run, I would be down for one crystal. Hopefully the Nautilus crystal isn't a pain-in-the-ass to remove. Any word as to whether Flav is up for offering his removal/re-seating service? I'd be happy to send payment via paypal today, if you can provide your paypal address-

sweet....sounds excellent!

I'm in for three crystals. *also, if someone in NA can do a crystal removal as well as replacement, please let me know via PM *another question: chieftang wasn't able to get the crystals fully coated (meaning there was an area of the crystal that had a 'lip' without AR) because the metal and the crystal expand at different rates for the durable coating AR that was used. I read that this won't be an issue on this run, but I'm unsure whether that means that the AR will not be of the 'durable' variety, being that the same problem would seem to apply....?

Sounds good to me!! I wish I had more reps that could use AR. I have half a mind to order an asian steelfish right now....have it coated, and sell the ETA.

Interesting...thanks Stephane. I hadn't realized that some of the modders already have the parts in stock. Is there a significant premium to be paid on the parts that the modders have, or is it a better value to try to hunt down the parts yourself, and then ship them off to someone to have assembled, etc...? I'm trying to maintain as much of a value-orientation towards my mod project as possible. I know that a lot of the modders are probably fantastic values, in terms of the cost of their work. I am absolutely NOT going to risk putting a drill to those lugholes, trust me. I know that some things you can try to maximize value on, and some things you're best not to. I'm not trying to be cheap, but my budget for mods is probably less than I'd ideally want to be dealing with...thus the need to 'prioritize' based on the relative value of the mod, in terms of how it impacts on the overall appearance of the watch. Something like the gen tropic I can see as making a significant difference for the $$ invested...but some of the bracelet mods, for example going after a gen bracelet or clasp, is out of my league. Keeping in mind that the watch I've purchased has some aesthetic mods already done....such as the insert/pearl as well as the crown/tube, and the lughole superficially drilled. I'd love to upgrade the crown/tube as well as the insert, but it needs to be of justifiable value. So for example, if the aftermarket insert is a definite step-up, I'll totally go in that direction. My worry would be that the modders might want a premium for having sourced the parts already. I don't blame them for that at all, it's a definite entitlement, as far as I'm concerned- given the difficulty in tracking them down that I'm having. But my time waiting to find gen parts for cheaper is something I can afford, whereas the ultimate $$ bottom line is something I can't control as much...

Thanks for the response DuDro- I would feel better about that bezel if there was a picture of it in the listing. The pearl looks pretty good. I would love to be able to see if the numbers on the insert are thin like the genuine. Would it make sense to upgrade one aftermarket insert for another one? If it really is as good as the genuine, then yeah, I have no qualms with going with one that is aftermarket- but otherwise it seems like it could be a lateral move. The only two gens I've run across are going to run around $200 US. There was one on the parts board a while ago for $80- which is in my price range. I can't afford to go too high on any of these parts, as far as cost. I am hoping that I wasn't screwed over with my crown/tube that I bought off Ebay. If anyone could give me some direction as to whether or not this will be compatible with my 1680, I would be grateful, because if it isn't compatible, I'm going to go in another direction.

Hey all... I've begun the perilous journey of gathering parts for a MBW 1680 sub that I recently purchased. I've ordered a gen tropic 127, so the crystal is already covered. But things have begun to get complicated for a vintage rollie amateur like myself. I really like the rivetted bracelets that Homer supposedly has access to. My question is: are the rivetted bracelets in question dated prior to the white 1680? I like the rivetted look, but I don't want to go for it if it's not accurate for the time period my sub is 'theoretically' from. I believe they might be usable only for the Seadwellers and red subs? Another question I've got is- where on earth I'm going to find a reasonably-priced gen insert? timezone and Ebay are not looking that great as options...but perhaps it's simply a matter of persistance, as supposedly they've begun harder to find over the last year or so. And my last question for right now: is the crown/tube pictured in this ad going to fit my sub? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...N:IT&ih=014 I'll update this thread as I go on my journey of trying to collect worthwhile parts. I'm trying to economize my efforts so as to go with the mods that are *most* important...in terms of price-to-appearance. I've heard some conflicting info as far as what mods are the most valuable and worthwhile. I've got half a mind to go only with the gen tropic and crown/tube, as to go further would mean sourcing someone to drill lug holes and do dial-aging, etc... Genuine bracelets are not something I'm looking at...so hopefully there are other good options if my rivetted Homer bracelet proves inaccurate for the model/time period. I guess a Noobmariner bracelet could be used, worst-case scenario, as per the very helpful thread that I recently saw posted... Any other suggestion as to what might be a prudent upgrade? Here's the watch in question. It's already had some basic aesthetic mods..such as an aftermarket insert and crown/tube, as well as the lug holes drilled to give the 'appearance' of 2mm lug holes. http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j89/adri...c/aIMG_4263.jpg http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j89/adri...c/aIMG_4267.jpg http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j89/adri...c/aIMG_4279.jpg http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j89/adri...c/aIMG_4292.jpg

Check on the parts board- I *believe* that someone is still selling gen tropic 127's.

laz, tribal did an awesome job on those CG's. Really impressive work.

The benefit of this service, vs. the previously offered one, is that the organizer is able to do AR removal on watches that have light AR coating. That opens up the realm of possibility somewhat. I hope the organizer has an efficient means of stripping AR from the already-treated crystals, as I've read that it can be something of a chore.

This would be a smart mod for those with a uPO. A double-sided crystal would add greatly to the appearance, and would essentially make the uPO a 'verifiable' super-rep. My PP is a mocoque design- meaning the movement is removed from the case up through the crystal hole?- hopefully someone is feeling up to the challenge. If I'd known the service would be back, I probably wouldn't have purchased my ETA Steelfish... Someone could do very nicely to get a hold of an asian SFSO and an asian uPO and send them for treatment.

You should care, in as far as they're not going to rep the watch because of the display back. I wouldn't care about it, either...but apparently the maker does.

Count me in for one crystal, tentatively. I don't know if removing and replacing the crystal on a patek Nautilus is going to be a harder job-

It's interesting that he's sourcing MBW's, is it not? Thought it would be hard for a china based dealer to access the taiwanese reps.

Wondering about the new watches I saw listed in Angus' collector forum. Are these new 'super-reps' or is he able to source the same MBK's as some of the other dealers? They look nice....and I remember reading when the first of the PP Nautilus Jumbo reviews started to emerge that there were going to be more 'mainstream' versions of the watch coming through the rep channels in the not-so-distant future. He says that they're the same quality as the MBW's that are currently being offered by TTK and Paso, etc... http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...mp;#entry307490