mezzanine

I know Angus had floated the idea a while back. It was quickly vetoed due to it's expected exhorbitant price, when he asked whether people would be willing to pay $1000 for a rep. But I've *heard* that it might be getting released soon. Is there any truth to that? I could see the super-rep factory pressing on, even though the feedback wasn't great. There's been a move away from using the forums as a barometer of which models to replicate, etc...

Yeah... I think that we've all probably been taken to some degree or another. Most of us didn't buy our first rep only after we'd spent months gaining information, and in that sense, most of the people here probably have experienced the downside of the rep game even if they're committed to doing due diligence. But that's what bugs me. Is that I tried to do the due diligence and it was recommended here in a number of threads. I guess it just bugs me that there's still a grey-area, in terms of how some of the practices are dealt with. What accountability has been brought to bear? I understand that there's a natural action that takes place after something like the 'little white lies' thread- but I'm irritated because that's what the community is supposed to guard against. At least that's what I'd thought... I'm not trying to call anyone out. The money spent on servicing is not insignificant...even the cheaper prices offered by some of the 'collectors'.

To get the crystal on a MBW Patek Philippe Nautilus AR'd? I guess it goes to the bigger issue of whether it makes sense to have a rep of a gen watch that doesn't have an AR coated crystal even though it violates the cardinal rule of trying to approximate the gen as closely as possible. But consider that this rep isn't 'exact' anyways- both with the solid case-back and the connected dots on the blue-dialed version. With vintage Pams or Rolex's, or even modern variants of those popular watches, that don't have AR on their crystals, I understand not wanting to mess with their legendary status. But with a watch like the Patek...especially the one with the blue-green faded dial, I can't help but wonder about how that dial could be brought out with a double AR coating. I know it's supposed to be a watch from the 70's, but with Genta's designs, they're relatively timeless. It looks surprisingly contemporary. There aren't many watches that intrigue me as much- perhaps that's an effect of it's strange and divisive powers. And perhaps as a result of that unique quality it elicits in others- there aren't many watches that have sparked my imagination in the same way, in terms of how an AR'd crystal could impact on it's presentation. I'm undoubtedly exposing myself for the non-WIS noob that I am...but ultimately it's about your own personal enjoyment of the watch. I'm still wrestling with it...and that's why I'm curious to hear some other opinions. Would you AR coat a watch whose gen doesn't have AR? That dial would absolutely come alive, with it's graded blue-ish dial. If the dial wasn't so unique, and already the colour of the AR coating, I wouldn't really be interested in the notion. Having seen the blue dialed SFSO with AR, it looks really cool.

Love the way the AR looks with the domed crystal....really nice.

Thanks as always to The Zigmeister for weighing in....pretty much the only person here who can legitimately debunk a lot of this stuff from an educated perspective. It bugs me to know that I got sucked in. When I was investigating the legitimacy of this way back when, I never came across this info. Why do people recommend this on the forums? The lid should really get blown off this whole thing, if this is true. That's what bugs me about the direction of the community. People are complicit with this. Not telling noobs about how to source MBW's is one thing- I understand the logic- but allowing this to go on while 'members' (even VIP members, I dare say) are pissing away money on something illigitimate...is wrong.

This really bugs me if it's true. My HBB supposedly came serviced from Angus, if I remember. I don't think the member was lying, who I bought it from. But then when I saw The Zigmeister's comments about the difficulty involved in servicing the Big Bangs, I began to wonder whether it had actually got the full tear-down and all that.... I have paid a premium on a number of watches under the notion that they've been serviced.

Yeah, it's probably the watch that pictures do the worst job capturing, of all the watches that I've scoped out here that I've later been able to see in person. The dial seems to get washed out in pictures...but it's a really crisp blue with a lot of natural shine- but then when you add the really spectacular AR, the combination of the light hitting the shiny blue surface while the AR prevents the reflection from causing glare on the crystal is really something else considering the sheer size of the crystal. Really cool....

Gio, get the Cousteau. I know you mentioned that you're thinking about getting it. You should go for it...I have pretty much all the super-reps now, and it's probably the one I'm most impressed with. The HBB is awesome too, but my personal take is that the Cousteau is the best out-of-the-box replica available at this point.... It's amazing. While the Big Bang is more dramatic and it's machining makes it more impressive, probably....the Cousteau is extremely well balanced on the wrist, and it's more comfortable (big time!). The folks at IWC hit a home run with that one. It exceeded my expectations, and my expectations weren't exactly 'low'.

Tribal: I think that the 'for sale' section has been in a bit of a lull, and that the timing of your sale is probably the only reason it hasn't moved yet. The watch is gorgeous, and if I had the funds I wouldn't think twice. I highly doubt that anyone could get it at MBK, and I *know* that they wouldn't be able to mod it as well as it has been.... Damn your timing!! I've been waiting for one of these......whoever buys it can re-sell it at any time for the same amount as it's costing them now. Can't do that with 90% of the reps that come up for sale here.

Interesting.... That would explain it, then. It's amazing to think that they can manufacture them on their own- Especially watches like the Nautilus....they must have a talented watchmaker working for them. It would be cool to be able to see how they actually do it. It seems to me that there'd be a fair amount of investment on their part to be able to get a watch from the drawing board to the shelves. Maybe they source some of the manufacturing out? Pretty smart entrepreneurs they are. I wonder if they'd be receptive to some refinements of their dials- especially the red-lettered ones? Probably not, but if it's a family-run type of operation, you never know. Do they have another market, other than our little community?

I *almost* went with the black dial on the notion that it would show the effect of the AR better than the white dial....but at the last moment went with my gut (and the watch I liked better) and decided on the white one. I'm glad to hear that I was right to not panic and go with the dark dial.....thx

Curse you, Babel Fish! Good luck to the linguists in the house....

That's what it was about for me, too...but because of that, it really ate at me that I would drop an extra $200 just for the AR, which I'm sure costs the rep factory $20 at the most. I've gone on about this ad nauseum...so I'll stop now. What bugs me is that I eventually caved to the notion....even though the ETA is obviously a value-adder as well. It's funny- I never really cared a whole lot about date-fonts. Maybe on my MBW 16610 I do a bit, but not on my other watches really. I guess everyone has their 'pet issues'. AR is mine for sure...and that's why I'm irritated with the SFSO pricing situation between the asian and ETA. If it was like the uPO's, whereby the asian has the same AR as the ETA, but just the movement is different, I wouldn't have thought twice about going with the asian SFSO.

I was really close to ordering a black dialed SFSO because of all that has been said about the white one not needing the AR, and the darker dials 'showing' the effect of the AR to a significantly larger degree. Chieftang said that his favourite watch that he's got AR'd was the VCO in the white dial. I'm guessing that the white dial still benefits from the AR, but that it isn't as 'necessary' as it is with the darker dials. Pug, you can probably attest to it, being that you've got the white-dialed version. It seems like it still improves the clarity of the dial significantly, but that white dials don't create as much glare naturally. I'm torn as to whether I should've got the black one in an ETA, and then gone with an asian for the white. I really like the black one, and it's probably the least popular of the three colour options. But I would have to get the gen rubber if I got the black- that's the combo that I probably like the most- but that would add another 90 bucks to the watch, and then I ask myself: "when would I wear the black dial SFSO on black rubber, instead of my HBB that has a black dial and is on black rubber". I felt my collection would be better filled by a different niche, which would be a white-dialed watch.

You're on the money Pho- It's funny that you're outlining the problem that I was wrestling with for a couple of weeks- whether to get the SFSO without AR. Can you tell me if the swiss one that you had was a white dialed Steelfish? Cause what I'd kept hearing was that the white one didn't necessitate AR as much as the darker dials, and therefore was the asian version of choice. This caused me sleepless nights, I'm not joking. Welll....I am joking, it wasn't that stressful, but it was significant stress!! I ended up getting the white dial ETA version with AR, because as you know, we're both AR freaks and I knew I'd be [censored] even if it wasn't as visible or required on the white version. PS- I just got a Cousteau, and the AR on this watch, with the blue dial, is absolutely stunning. Unbelievable.

They really are damn impressive. My Cousteau Divers finally arrived today, after a couple of weeks of waiting, and it has only served to confirm what I had already realized- that the 'super-reps' are on a whole other level. This, in itself, isn't that much of a revelation. But the reason I bring it up is that a lot of the flack that these watches get due to their high prices don't really pay homage to the fact that they *really are* much better replicas. We're not simply being price-gouged, with no regard for the quality of the watches. It's more complicated than that. Are the watches commanding a higher margin over previous reps? Yes. I have no doubt that the cartel have been able to control the pricing, along with the factory, to try to maximize profits. But when that's all you hear about, it fails to capture the reality that we are getting something more with these watches. It's sorta like the MBW's. Are they over-priced, relative to other Rolex reps? Yes. But that's not the whole story. Even the watches like the Ultimate PO, which is regarded as the first 'super-rep', doesn't hold a candle to the real ones...the HBB, Evo, Cousteau and SFSO. Nor does the Tag Link Chrono or the Ingy or whatever other previous generation reps that used to define the standard. The point I'm slowly trying to make is that those reps (the previous generation of high-end rep watches) had a lot more in common with their predecessors than the newer 'super-reps' have with the old high-end reps of a year ago. I believe that the reason is because the factory that makes the super-reps is capable of repping more expensive watches. The Planet Ocean, the Tag Link Chrono, etc... are all available for around a couple of grand. Now, the Steelfish SuperOcean is obviously a watch that falls into this category, but I believe the rule still stands. Angus put forward a Porsche watch as a candidate for the next super-rep. This watch was vetoed because it would've cost around $1000 by the time it hit the market- and people told him that it would be too expensive (which was true). But I believe it reinforces the notion I'm getting at. The Porsche watch (gen) goes for around $100,000. What is truly impressive about the super-reps is not that they're so much better than the Tag Link Chrono, uPO, etc... It's that they're accurate replicas of watches that are three or four times as expensive. If you're going to charge $10000 vs. $2000 for a watch, as a retailer, there needs to be something in the $10000 watch that compels the buyer to want the more expensive one. Basically, it needs to look more complex, more finished, more impressive a design, etc... The same applies in our own grey little world. What impresses me about the HBB and the Cousteau is that they could pass for their gen counterparts. That's no different than the Tag, which could also pass for it's gen counterpart. The difference is that the HBB and the Cousteau look every bit the $8000 watches that they're crafted to mimick.

One thing I've never seen discussed with regard to the MBW's, is that there MUST be more sources for these than just a single stall in MBK. We're only aware of one of the places to get them, but unless they're manufacturing these 'in house', then it would seem logical that they're not the exclusive source of them. They must be getting them from somewhere.

Tempting.... I've got a HBB and a Cousteau that have asian 7750's. The HBB is supposedly serviced, so hopefully that won't be a problem. The Cousteau is freaking beautiful- and I'm tempted to swap an ETA into this one. More likely, though, would be to buy this and then wait for whatever the next chrono super-rep is, and then swap it into that one... If I could buy this and then pay $100 bucks less to some dealer for an Evo or something (due to not needing the asian), and have them install it for like $50 or something, then it would be compelling. My real goal is to try to find a cheap way to get asian 7750's serviced....but that's not likely to happen any time soon. Hmmmm....the fact that these come serviced is a real tough one. Do they come serviced though? Or are they put together with machines, just like the asians? I could have sworn that in one of The Zigmeister's reviews, he said that the first time a watch gets properly serviced, asian OR swiss, was the first time it hits the watchmakers bench...? Tough one....

Just received the watch..... Very impressed with it. The 'super-reps' are truly a step above. I've had most of the good reps that pre-dated the super-reps, and they're not in the same league. The folks that have mentioned the SFSO as the best reps ever...I have to wonder whether they've had this watch and the HBB. I'm going to be getting the Steelfish soon, so I'll be able to say for myself, but it's hard to imagine it eclipsing this watch. If I had to buy one watch, or *keep* only one watch, this one would probably be it. I'm excited to get the Steelfish only because it has got to be killer if it's regarded as being in the same league as the Cousteau. It makes me wonder what type of margin the factory gets on these. I'm sure they get an incredible profit, but I have no problems imagining that the cost going into development as well as the production costs themselves would be significantly higher than with other reps.

The Planet Ocean with gen crystal is very nice man.... That mod makes the watch... Gives me pause...I will give some consideration to getting this done myself...I love the 42.5mm size of the smaller PO. I'm wearing my *just arrived* IWC Cousteau

Interesting- thanks man. I'm still torn. I figure that the white dial probably still shows the effect of the AR, as Chieftang said. But it sounds as though it isn't the best value to go with the white version ETA. Considering I'd be paying a lot of money essentially exclusively for the AR (although the ETA is nice, obviously) I wonder whether it's necessary to pony up the extra $200 if I want the white one... If you're a stickler for AR like I am, and the asian white-dialed version doesn't bug you without it, then it causes me to think I'm better off going with the darker dial if I'm after the AR'd ETA version... I've got a Cousteau that is a blue dial on a blue rubber strap, as well as a HBB, which is a black dial on a black rubber strap...and that's what had me thinking I'd be filling a niche if I went with the white one. The white one appealed to me because it seemed to show the concentric circles the best....ugh, decisions decision...stress!

It's kinda bizarre how stressful the choice of dial colour is for me. I'm moving away from the white dial, as it seems to me that it isn't as necessary if you're going with the ETA with AR. Now it's between black and blue. I have a Cousteau, which is blue on a blue rubber strap...and so I'm now leaning towards black- but I want to be able to see the concentric circle pattern, and I wonder whether it's not as visible with the black dial....blegh...this is what happens when you start overanalyzing.

Thanks for the input Chieftang- I'm on the fence as to which dial colour I want to go with, as far as my pending SFSO purchase. I've heard a few people say that the asian version of the watch, if you're getting the white dial, doesn't 'show' the effect of the AR in the same way that the coloured dials do. That has me wondering whether I should go with the blue/black, being that AR is one of my favourite aspects of the super-reps, and one of the major reasons I would ante up the $200 for the price difference between the asian and ETA. Based on what you're saying, it sounds as though the white dials DO carry the effect of the AR, but just don't have the same level of natural glare or reflectivity...?

I'm close to ordering one of these, but since I'm leaning towards the white dial, I'm wondering whether it pays to go with the ETA version with good AR. Basically, everyone with the white asian is saying that it isn't that big a factor- the lack of AR- as the white dial doesn't produce much glare, and therefore it isn't as necessary or impactful on the overall feel of the watch. Can anyone comment on this? Preferably someone who has the swiss white-dialed version, or even better, has both the white and a darker coloured one?

My work here is done then...just remember, he watches you while you sleep, too... Interesting to hear that he can get stuff that isn't on his website- that makes me think I should contact him about sourcing the ETA version. Silix seems to be a refreshing option...if not for his prices, just for the principle of rewarding a dealer who is trying to beat the price-fixing issue. I've heard great stuff about PT. I always wondered about the issue of the mineral vs. sapphire. I'd heard it mentioned a couple of times that the asian actually has sapphire, but that it's simply a marketing thing. The idea being that you try to build in some intangible qualities to help justify the premiums you're charging for the ETA. I'm sure there actually is mineral on the asian, but this is an example of what happens when you lose confidence- you start questioning everything...