mezzanine

I was noticing recently that there is a greater number of members who are branching out from the conventional channels through which most of us have conventionally sourced parts. There are other options out there for those of us who are transfixed by the idea of being able to create projects on rep bases on something other than just the MBK's. The only models that MBK offers that are good for this purpose are the 1680 and 1665. I know there are others, but they're variations on those two basic models. I am curious if there's a way to arrange a wholesale supplier of these for those of us who are looking for more value than what they're seeing on the websites or on ebay. I don't know if there's enough demand, or whether the folks that have access to these would even be able or willing to hook us up here. I know that they'd be more expensive than an MBK- you're paying for what you get, I'm sure. I just don't think we fall into the same category of folks that they generally rely on for their business. I think for the most part, they target the genuine Rolex owners who are looking at these reps as a fall-back option. The point being that the majority of their business probably comes from genuine Rolex owners. As a result, I think they price them accordingly. I just wonder whether we could arrange something through Phong for something that we wouldn't have access to more usually...like the Tudors that he supposedly arranged, but something that would be more popular, like an Explorer case. It seems as though we may have neglected this option due to the price of their cases as well as the availability of MBK's that are souced more cheaply and easily.

I don't know how anyone affords those bloody NDtrading or vietnam cases, etc.. They're so expensive. I would kill to have a 1655 rep or one of their 1665 reps, but they're just too much money for me at this point. It seems to me like there's been a broadening out of options for rep cases to build on. I wish there were a way that we could get them at a discount to their general market value to non-replica aware people who are obviously going to be price gouged as a result.

Awesome. I'm playing with the idea of a vintage project like this, but I'm thinking I'd go with a Daytona before I'd go with another sub style rollie. I love the dome on these watches- I'm contemplating getting a superdome for the 1665 even though it's a triple-6.

Yeah, that's some awesome news. I think there will be some very happy no-date owners. I wonder whether these could be used on any of the Silix vintage rolex's that seemed like such a good deal to me earlier. If you could throw a t-19 on one of those, you'd have a great value-for-the-dollar vintage piece.

Pass the bottle this direction, when you're done.... I need to get some sleep, too. I can't even remember the last time my sleep cycle was so messed. As far as the point about people continuing to buy the more popular ones- that's a good point that I'd left out in my earlier post. The reps like the PO and the sub tend to function more in line with the technology sector, in terms of what motivates the factories to make new generations. They can re-release the same best selling watch and claim that the new one is a step above. You'll end up with a bunch of people who have bought multiple generations of the same watch. When you consider that 90% of sales are probably made up of a half dozen watches, and each of those watches are probably going to fall into the category of reps that get 'refreshed' for a spike in the sales curve. The masses are what dictates the production process and values.

I lost post to this [censored]ing laptop again, but most of the reps that are released will not be upgraded or revised at a later point in time. The exception are watches that are highly popular, such as the Omega Planet Ocean, or the Rolex submariner, etc... These are sold in enough volume and have enough universal appeal to warrant the type of 'draft revision' process that you're describing. Ironically, it's not because those watches are "less perfect" than the other 'super-reps' when they're released...but people are so highly tuned to the differences between the rep and gen because of the popularity of the watch, that they tend to microanalyze to a greater degree. That's why I freak about the datefont on my 1680, while the stickers on the rotor of my HBB or the wrong sub-dial function on my MBK AP ROO doesn't bother me in the least.

One of the nice things about the MBW's that accept genuine parts is that the level of research, time, and resources that go into their creation makes it a true project. I don't know about you all, but I spend sickening amounts of time researching and learning about the watches that I want. What's nice about the 'project' watches, or the ones that require you to build them in steps, over a longer period of time, is that they allow one to feel engaged in the RWG community without the potential expense of going from rep-to-rep. Unless you're studying or researching the potential purchase of a new watch, once you've gone and purchased a few nice reps, your engagement in the community kinda dies off. What else are you really going to do to your SFSO to make it more gen? There are mods that can be done, but they're well beyond the point of diminishing returns. A hugely under-appreciated problem with continuing to just buy reps and add to the collection is the depreciation of replica watches in value. For example, let's say that you've got a rep collection valued at $5000. I know it sounds crazy, but I'd guess there are more than a few out there. By my rough calculations, reps depreciate at around 20% a year in value. If you hold onto your reps for a few years and then decided to sell them, you could find yourself lucky to get 50% of what you paid. Contrast that with a couple of highly modded MBW's, like what I've done with my collection. Let's say that each of these watches has around $1500 invested in them individually. For sake of easy math, let's play out the scenario as described above: three years later and we want to liquidate our watch collection. Instead of trying to get 50% of our initial investmnet, chances are that parting out the genuine parts on the MBW's will actually net you more money than your initial investment, due to the more stable and favourable characteristics of the genuine vintage parts/watch market.

It goes to show you how different the hobby is for each person. I've pretty much done the exact opposite- started with any other rep than Rolex, and ended up at Rolex after a long journey through every other major brand. In terms of advantages, there are advantages to each direction. I think there is much less realistic ability for someone to identify one of the super reps as 'fake', rather than a Rolex (especially modern). In fact, the modern rolex's don't appeal to me very much simply because I'd have a hard time identifying one as fake, and that's considering that we obsess about this stuff constantly. The other side of it is that most people could care less about your SFSO or IWC or whatever. They're aware of Rolex when it comes to luxury watches. This requires the ridiculous over-attention to detail that often goes along with a rolex rep. That's why I could see someone easily becoming frustrated with the idea of dealing with the number of details and $$ needed to get it right. I don't think that the MBW vintages are really 'replicas' as such, depending of course on their level of modification. I see those as being somewhat separate from the typical reps...they're still reps, but they're also something else entirely.

What a total cop-out. If Neil had a shred of moral fibre in his body, the fact that he was banned from RWG would not impact on his decision to follow through on business committments that were made between individuals. I hope that Neil is arrogant enough to believe that if he scams people here on the basis of having been banned, he won't be held accountable. What a douche!! RWG, this really should be a powerful lesson in what can happen when you let someone like TTK slip through the cracks for too long. You allow someone like this to stick around, even in the face of evidence that there is a major problem, and you're bound to run into situations like this. When you're dealing with someone with no moral compass regarding business practices, you cannot act surprised when he turns that same corrupted morality back on you.

The good thing about something like this is that people aren't dumb, and they can make up their own minds. Any time someone tells you that they're going to let you know "what's really been going on", you're basically insulting the intelligence of people that don't need your help to frame the events that have taken place. I think you'd agree that there's been a high degree of consensus amongst members about this decision. Do you believe that the vast majority of folks are just not bright enough to form their own thought based on the evidence? I like this example to lead off, because it attempts to frame this issue in terms of a social scenario that would elicit sympathy through the idea that TTK is in some way the victim here, due to the ignorance of the burden he carries as a dealer. I think it's the argument made by despots everywhere- you need me, because without me, the burden of having to come up with a better option is too much for sheep-like consumers like ourselves. We need TTK in the form of the watch mafia to "mystify" the process of purchasing a watch. The classic argument of TTK- something else is going on that requires you to buy into his model of why his practices are actually necessary or intrinsic to selling reps, not a reflection of any personal failing of his own, however he chooses to martryr himself in the interest of the pattern of his method justifying himself .

mmmm

I'm disappointed at what happened, as I think that TTK has probably been under an unreal amount of stress and might be acting a little out of character. I feel there is likely a strong correlation between the emotional issues that seem to have surfaced in the forms of threats of personal harm, etc... against the admins, and the root cause of his problem meeting very basic expectations and standards of conduct needed to run any any business over time. I hope he gets well. The reality is that business is business, and not everyone is cut out for it. You can choose to look at Neil's struggle to run his business as a product of an innocent person being the victim of an unfortunate series of events that were out of his control that caused him to fail to meet his responsibilities. Or you can look at it as someone who really didn't have the right motivation to be selling in the first place. Someone who incorporated the habit of viewing his personal problems as reasonable explanation for his inability to handle business responsibilities. Someone who failed to grasp that his own immaturity, and inability to handle responsibility, is not someone else's fault, or someone who simply doesn't understand your 'unique' policies. What is truly sad is that the cycle had become so absurd in the eyes of outside observers that he had literally played himself into a corner with this last round, by choosing to attribute this latest debacle to his legitimately deteriorating health. This is going to sound horrific to those of you still in your box, but he insulted the blind people I know when he did that, and the fact he's losing his sight does not absolve him of the responsibility of that insult. Right now the new Governor of New York City is a blind man. Go tell him that you couldn't deliver a watch because your eyesight is deteriorating. I'm not making light of TTK's blindness- he did, by "going there" when the real reason he's failed again is that he's an incompetant business person. All he had to do was simply communicate with his buyers and be honest. To those of you that lucked out and didn't get burned- it doesn't mean he's a good rep dealer.

I hear what you're saying Stilty- all I'm recommending is that people do their own research on these, I'm not trying to be negative, but rather look at what I'd do if in a similar position.

Feel free to do your own research on these, I've determined without a shadow of a doubt in my own mind that these are fakes. Those of you still holding out will come around once these things get properly identified as fake. If it were me, and I had one of these things, I would consider getting rid of it before they become common knowledge- which is already happening, and I'm pretty sure is the only reason I scored on my bracelet. One thing to be aware of: until the market fully recognizes that these are fakes, there are some great deals to be had on gen 7836's, because the prices are getting artificially deflated due to the fakes. I'm pretty sure that's the only reason I scored the deal I did on mine- it was coming from Hong Kong just like the fakes, and it scared people off. If you're a seller, you check the completed auctions to get an idea of the market value, get fooled by the fakes going for $400, and price their bracelets about 50% too low.

You know that MBW watch you bought from me? How's the wrist size working out for you? Every time you look down at your wrist, I want you to realize that the SeaDweller was one of my bath toys too. I called it "the life ring" and it functioned just like a usual life ring that you would see on a boat. Except it didn't save people....well, I guess he mostly saved just one purple-headed fellow, but every time he was getting rescued, he'd always throw up. Must've been a weak stomach...or maybe it was that it was always slipping off that would agitate his digestion. Happy watch wearing!

I agree with you, but imagine how disappointing it is that they totally screwed it up with the appearance of the watch. I could use that function, as I actually race yachts and that would be a dream.

I can't believe that they released the Yachtmater II. No one ever thought to do some market testing, to see what the response would be like. It's not as though Rolex gen owners or fans like this move by Rolex any more than most of us. If you're going to go more modern, you've got to do it in gradations.

Workng now? I thought it was just my computer that wasn't displaying the images, but they're showing up for me now... Let me know if they're still not showing up-

Hard to say...probably $500-600. I'm going to be selling a 78360 w/501 endlinks (same as 580's) and that's the range I'm hoping for if I list on Ebay like I'm planning. Mine doesn't have the flip-lock clasp, though. I generally prefer not to sell Rolex parts here as most of the community isn't aware of their value. Also, I feel compelled to give deals here that I wouldn't other places.

Yeah, the clasp is the real weak part according to those that have sided with the skeptics. If there were just one or two things that looked suspicious, it wouldn't have raised nearly the questions, as the bracelet halves and end pieces certainly look like a step forward- although we have no reference point to be able to make that comparison. I guess there's an inconsistency when it comes to the fact it's supposed to be NOS, with regard to some of the finish on the exterior, I think also involving the coronet. My guess is that this an entirely new replica bracelet, if it is indeed a replica. Last night I tried to look at the profile of the side of the bracelet, to try to see if I could detect either greater thickness in the 'NOS' one, or this supposed flaw with the center links. I couldn't spot it. Looked to me like the numbers on the endlink should have extended further onto the 'tab' as well, but there is a lot of variation, admittedly, so it's possible that they are just different. One of the potential issues, again from only a logical consistency and plausibility perspective, is that these 'constellations' of suspicious qualities only show up together on this particular bracelet...unless someone can come out and prove that wrong, and right now it's the side of the skeptics that seems to advancing the theories at this stage due to the resistance of the experts on the other side to even address the issue directly. They could put it to bed so quickly, but it hasn't yet happened to my knowledge. The more time that goes by where there isn't an alternate response to fill the vacuum, the more validity I think it will carry. Oli, if you made it this far, I remembered I also have those 93150 links too.

This is a great point that can be applied more generally to the rare pieces in the rep world. I don't think that the vast % of people who initially show interest in these types of hard-to-find, rare, and expensive parts, really know what they're talking about a lot of times- and once they start to realize what is involved, usually their interest is withdrawn. I think it is seen with the Jimmy stuff, but also with some of the MBW rolex's. I'm amazed that members often will be influenced by the market to actually sell these parts for cheaper than they paid, simply because there's demand for them. For example, I'll see an MBW that's been modded with gen parts sell for less than the value of the parts alone very frequently. For the most part, people generally have the attitude that was described so well in the quote above.

The difference between the MBW dials and some of the better aftermarket dials is worth the investment. The quality difference is significant and a major upgrade for red watches in particular...very nice DRSD Pete. I'm guessing the SD bracelet half hasn't got to you yet...I mailed something to germany at the same time and I was shocked how quick it got there.

I understand your position, Stilty, but from what I have observed, everyone who has taken the position that the bracelet is real is doing so on the basis of Stan's credibility. Stan's credibility is open to question if you dig a little deeper into matters. Essentially, when confronted with someone else's NOS 7836, he said that it was fake....but when confronted with his own identical bracelet, he refuses to acknowledge the possibility it's fake. He does not make an attempt to address the issues that have been raised, and simply makes an appeal to his history selling Rolex parts as his evidence for the bracelet's authenticity, which is a sign of someone grasping at straws IMO...

Sounds like you had a busy day, congrats on having a go of doing some of this stuff on your own... In terms of the dial, I believe the MBW dials come stamped Singer on the backs, with the feet already cut off. So I believe that what you observed was an MBW dial, not an aftermarket dial of different origin. I look forward to seeing some pics!