Devedander

You have to be show character and integrity.

As for the questionable morality of rep watches, I made a post about that very issue a few days ago... I was honest and upfront about how I feel about it. But this is more an issue of "honor amongst thieves" if you will... Again, all the rationlizations you made sound kind of good... until you think about them... the main link in all of them? You didn't check with Art before making deicisions that weren't yours to make. You made decisions and choice bassed on assumptions about the situation that seemed ok to you... but I think you are seeing how that doesn't really work. As for never claiming the gen bezel was new... come one... he didn't even know he was getting a gen bezel! If you are sending a whole watch, and you say the watch is new, then I think it's implying that the entire watch is new... I mean how can it be a new watch if you ahve done any modding to it at all? You only have to look at Arts reaction to the damaged bezel to see that indeed that was the meaning he understood. Rationlizing after the fact never leaves a good taste... Maybe it will be more obvious when you see someone else doing it... check this post and see if you can draw some similarities to the explanations of things... certainly it's a different situation but I get the same bad taste from reading it http://www.replicacollector.com/members/in...c=26416&hl= @ Chronos last post: First off your delayed mailing was covered and if that was all I think we could understand. You should have known better than to put an item for sale during such a hectic time in your life, but hell if we haven't all done similar things at some point. That can easily be viewed as an honest mistake. As for the other parts, I said dishonest, I didn't say mallevolent. And you keep wrapping your actions up in rationlizations and things to make it look pretty... If you had taken it to a jewlers it would have made him loose his place with The Zigmeister? No... if you hadn't tried to drill lugholes in a watch you represented as new then he wouldnt' be in a position to risk his position. Driled lugholes as a favor? During the two weeks you were so totally bombed from school you couldn't mail a package you took it on yourself to attempt a mod on a watch which at this point wasn't really yours anymore (it was Arts since the agreement was made)? Ok let's say you did... and you did out of the goodness of your heart. You still screwed up the "new" watch... This is the point at which you were damned... there was no damned if you don't, you already did. Whatever the reason behind it, you did it. And unless I missread Arts detail of it there was a rather significant gap between when he recieved the watch and when he got some contact with you. And no I am not a lawyer... I am just articulate and detailed and I have an aversion to people who can't be honest with themselve and others about their shortcommings. I try my best to be honest about my failings and I think that's all you can really ask of someone... to be honest about their failures and to try and learn from them. It just rubs me the wrong way when a situation like this comes along. I truely hope I am totally in the wrong here and just a victim of hearing about a sitauation vs being in the situation... but from where I sit it just doesn't look likely. As I said it's a sad thing that you want to leave becuase I believe you have contributed some real value to this forum (during my many hours reading this forum to try and educate myself on reps I seem to recall you rname comming up quite a few times) and I honestly am not trying to drive you away. But it is just hard for me to sit idly by while a (at least as far as I can understand it) situation like this unfolds. This is all getting too complicated and it's getting too late for me to write anything of increasing value so I am just going to say that to me, all the other details, who was going to do what, how it was tied together and whatnot, it all stems from doing anything to a watch advertised as "new" and which was already spoken for, so really not yours to make decisions about anymore. After the drilling of lugholes the only legitimate solution I could see at your disposal to meet the timeframe from Art was to send back the white one that he originally bought from you rather than send off the damaged red one. That would have shown honest good intention and integrity... I just can't fathom the rationlizing and special circumstances it would take for me to not see you for a bad light considering the path you chose. I hope when you get your degree and are working on a patient under the gas, you aren't quite as liberal making decisions that aren't yours to make... I see you are reading the post over at TRC... you can see how it rubs me the wrong way that people act like this... so I hope you don't take it personally... and in reality... I hope either I am totally seeing this wrong (in which case I apologize) or you see the error of your ways and learn to accept the conscequenses of your actions instead of rationlizing and trying to work your way out of a nasty spot. I think that' ability is a virtue in life that helps build character... and let me tell you character is VERY important to the success of anyone in the medical profession.

I am sorry but that explanation is just full of holes, rationaliztions and improper logic... The way you tell it overlooks some major issues: You say he was angry because you botched some drilling... I would think he was angry becuaes you represented that watch as "new" and there is NO way that was an honest mistake. Your intention all along was to make it right to him? How would you feel if you went in to have filling done and the dentist used a known bad method to do the work, then a week later when you found out and came back to complain he said "Oh yeah... no obviously I knew I was doing something wrong, but really I planned not to charge you for the root canal to fix it later when you found out about it." There is a saying I try to keep near and dear to my heart: "Don't [censored] on my leg and tell me it's raining." The bezel thing... again... it's a case of "well it was wrong but I rationlized it". Legitimately it may carry signficnt value becaue it's a gen and it may offset the damage to it, but it's not the right way to do things to justify it after the fact. If you want to exchange one value for another the other person should be aware of it and ok. If I pay you for an SS band and you send me a Rose Gold band, in all fairness that RG is probably worth far more and so I should be ok with it. But it's still not right unless you told me about it and I agreed. It's not for you to decide what's ok to switch up on someone... in all fairness I would think he would be more than happy with a slightly worn gen bezel... but it was wrong not to give him to opportunity to say it's ok or not. How about: You go in for a root canal, come out of anesthesia and find out he pulled the tooth and made you a bridge. He says "Don't worry, I will only charge you for a root canal and not for the expense of making the bridge." Well yeah... I just got a tooth pulled and a bridge made for much less than it normally costs... but it wasn't his choice to make to give me that deal... To tell someone the details upfront and get their consent, even if that means offering to pay for known problems is an honest and legitimate way to do business. To missrepresent something, knowingly send damaged product (regarless of how you rationlize it's value or the level of it's damage by way of your own scale) then try to rationlize your way out of it... that's just not kosher. One way is a legitimate and honest way to do things, the other is a sort of "crap you caught me, ok lemme fix it up for you" way to do things... From what I have read it sounds like you are trying to justify your actions because you did the right thing in the end... but I personally don't feel that's how it works. It's about character. And everything about this deal seems to lack character on your end. Anyone can fix it when they get caught and the spotlight is on them. The real test of character is whether you leave anything to be caught on. I am sorry, but I have to agree that you are lucky he is a good guy and is forgiving you... I am new to reps but not new to life and I would be leary of doing any kind of business with you based on this transaction. I am sorry to see this happen because I believe you have contributed a lot of value to the forum... and I am not trying to say anything about you outside your business practices... but your business practice... well it could use some serious work on the bedside manner.

What I am asking is let's say I pick up a watch that runs on an unmodified asian 7750... I don't get it serviced and in a year or two it fails... Is it usually pretty easy to pick up a gen 7750 and swap it in rather than repair the broken asian copy?

slighlty OT but hopefully ok... when setting your watch is it ok to spin the hands fast or should you turn them at a slow speed? Usually when I set my watch I kind of run my thumb and finger accross the crown advancing the hands too fast ot see, they just kind of jump until I am close then fine tune... is this bad or when the crown is pulled out does it remove enough friction that it doesn't straing the gears much?

Any comment on their watches?

Well I am new to the game, and I can accept I may have much to learn, but I have honestly tried to do my part to educate myself and feel that it's about all one can really do... I actually ordered a noobmariner from ttk a while back... and as little as it is in the big picture I think my attention to detail worked well... I followed his ordering instructions and think I am clear on what to expect and haven't so much as posted a whisper that he never confirmed reciept of payment and I haven't heard anything from him in about 2 weeks since (which I acredit to the fact that have indeed studied up and know this is not something unreasonable and in fact there is no real reason to expect otherwise). So while I can fully accept the noob lable, I hope it's not being given unwarrentedly simply by age of account. I also haven't post whored my way to 200 posts... I try to put a good deal of effort into my time here and I am sorry to see it is not resulting in a positive manner. I tried to make as clear as possible that while I understand the inherent QC issues with reps that I was only bringing this up as it was a specific part of the deal and specifically spelled out... I would proably have been in on this GB even if the deal was "$200 but you accept that probably there will be chips in the dial". I honestly am trying to be a valuable part of the community. My brutally honest manner of speaking may be offensive to some, and if it is I have already apologized, but I do feel that honestly and up frontness end up with far better results than guilding the situation.

RT I think you are feeling threatened by me in a way which I didn't intend to happen, so maybe it's best if we take our own little corner of this to PMs as you suggested... I would just like to say here that if indeed my posts cause a turn for the worst in the forums I am sincerely sorry. My exceessive presupposing was a result of my desire not to make the classic noob mistake of jumping in without thinking... it would seem perhaps I hit the other end of the scale and thought too much. I don't like surprises and maybe that leads me to be a bit too anal in how I approach a complex situation, so I hope I didn't offend anyone, and indeed I am (admittedly) new to this game so if I am making noob mistakes, I apologize for anyone who will suffer from me cutting my teeth here. Just to set the record straight, I didn't think you lied about the watches being checked, I just thought I might have missed something. I realize it was in an edit but I did say I think people should respect your request not to be contacted and when I said it was reasonable to contact you I didnt mean people should, but just that it seemed not unreasable to want to contact everyone involved. Profit margins are something I don't have access to direct knowledge of so I will have to assume you do and stand corrected. The original post that I think started this heat was me trying to clear up the rules of engagement, albeit after the fact. I say again that (although it did look like it) I was not trying to imply you were lying. I have agreed and paid for something, if I made an incorrect assumption about what I paid for, it's on me and I would not be happy about that fact. The "wouldn't like to find that out" isn't a jibe, it really means it would pain me to find out I screwed up by not paying careful enough attention to the details. RT I will PM you and hopefully we can clear the air.

I believe you push the little circl on the inside of the link you want to remove (the side that would touch your wrist) then push from the edge like a normal link pin to remove it.

Great to hear!!! Like I wasn't already excited enough, this just makes it worse! Did you get from EL or Jay? Can't want to see pictures...

I don't know how much of that was in response to what I posted but I will agree that really you bear no responsbility beyond being a contact man. That said I think it's understandable if someone suggests contacting you as you are... the contact man... In general I find in life it's best to include all parties involved, there is less "he said she said" and less "well I thought it meant this or that" (I am not implying that plays a roll here, just that it's a generally good rule). But I can definitely see your desire not to be contacted and I think people should try to respect your request not to be if possible. As for QC I agree, we all play that game with reps and it may be a bitter pill but it's one we should all understand. At the same time I think it's pretty common to expect that a dealer provides the watch he pictures on his site and lives up to his promises. Even from very senior members who know the game I get the feeling that it's perfectly normal to expect exactly what you see. And again, no one forces the dealer to promise anything. If I ask for a special consideration and the dealer can't provide it, then that's life... accept it or find a dealer who can. But if I ask for it, it is said it will hapepn, and then it doesn't, then I think we can agree it's fair to address it. Group buy or not. As for how many people are involved I think it can make a difference... let's say EL finds out today that watch is shipping with chipped dials... he gets on the horn with his dealer and says "Hey, you were supposed to check those, I don't want to pay for shipping for 25 dials to people to fix this screw up and I don't want them to think badly of my service, don't ship any more with chipped dials!". If it can't happen maybe he says "Sorry guys, turns out I can't do it, money is being refunded". Shipping and hassle are saved all around. If he can't get his dealer to do something, maybe 10 were shipped and it's too late but it saves 15 from having to deal with the hassle, saves EL some shipping costs for watch dials and saves 15 users the $20-30 it costs to have a dial switched... Also I am not sure the details but if worst comes to worst and he has to refund money, it may save fees and hassle on the refund part also. So in this case I believe it CAN potentially be good to get info in as soon as possible. It's entirely possible this was the one that slipped through and no one else will have a problem regardless. That would be great! But I am just saying there is potential benefit and not a lot of potential harm. I just want us all to come out of this in the best case possible Us with our nice, good deal, watches, and the dealers with some profit in their pockets and a relationship with their suppliers as bigger buyers.

I can't respond in full right now, but there is a missunderstanding RT... I was not doubting what you said, but only what I understood you saying. A recent thread in Dealer review with TTK involved reminded me how important it is to double check that what you THINK you should be expecting with what you SHOULD be expecting. I asking only because I don't directly recall the post where it was clearly stated that Jay would check dials and, as little difference as it makes now, I was just curious to find out if I had missread something into the deal. I want a hand inspected Ingy with no dial problems, and that's what I am expecting. But if somewhere along the way the rules changed and that's not what I paid for or what I should be expecting then I want to make sure I know before I make an ass of myself demanding something from a dealer that I don't have a right to demand. No offense intended RT, sorry for the missunderstanding. Similarly while it is legitimate to say that the level of QC a delaer provides is something that really can only be determined by trial and error, it doesn't really apply to a situation where a specific issue is addressed pre purchase. It holds true logically that if a dealer drop ships normally it's not fair to expect him to change his policies just because it's a group buy, it also holds true that if you say you will inspect each piece, knowing that your procedure prevents you from doing so, it's not the buyers fault if he expects you to. As for the non GB post, I didn't meant to intrude on your control of your post, but it's one thing to thread jack when one person has a few hundred on the line, I feel it was more excuseable when 50 people each have $200 on the line... I can only assume someone involved in the GB would eventually have noticed the numbers but it might be beneficial to have this noted early on for all involved. As for how I treat the dealers etc as part of a GB I agree, we should not hold them to any higher standard than normal, but at the same time I don't think they should get cut any more slack than normal. No one forced me to buy this watch, no one forced them to accept the GB requests. And this does in some way mirror the post in Dealer review I was speaking of earlier becuase of the whole "EL is in Canada so can't really hand inspect all the watches" which is all good and fine if you know that he is in Canada and put two and two together... but the original GB was dealer hand inspected watches... if EL can't hand inspect them, I can understand why... but to be fair that wasn't really made clear when the change occured. I am not trying to step on toes or [censored] anyone off... I do truly appreciate the value this community brings to it's members (and whether you want praise or not RT I think you desserve it as well as our dealers for stepping up to provide the forum with a great opportunity) but much like I think you are saying... keep it all fair and level... everyone who was in, pay up and hold up your end of the deal, don't leave our dealers hanging. Dealers, you agreed to something (and I am not accusing anyone dealers of trying to screw anyone here as the only instance I am seeing of anything going wrong looks like it's being remedied as best it can) and please don't take offense if we insist on what was agreed upon. I think a group buy should benefit everyone involved... dealers make bulk sales (so still make $$$) open up new avenues to customers (assuming this goes well Jay and Angel will have a returning customer in me) and we get a good deal on something. But no one should get it both ways (ie no saying "you don't get as high service because you paid less" and no saying "we are a group buy we want to flex our muscle and get more from dealers than we desserve). I understand fully the issues of people demanding too much... I have a friend who regularly borrows money from me, then when he pays me back acts like he is doing me a big favor. Last time (and it's going to be the last time) he paid me back he then asked me to buy him lunch, I said no and he said "Dude!!! I just gave you $300 and you won't buy me lunch?" even though that was the $300 he borrowed from me. I hope no one thinks I am trying to be like that, just trying to be careful, detailed and complete. Obviously I did manage to reply competely after all I hope that's not unreasonable or rude to anyone... just how I (and admittedly I am new to the game) see it.

Something tells me that won't be up for long...

Trigger has been pulled already but want to make sure all the same, this agreement was made with Jay as well correct... would hate to find out otherwise... And as for rangers post, it may not be on topic per se, but I think with 50 IWCs about to find new homes it does serve a valid cause...

Yeah it would seem that it doesn't match...

Good to know... I think he must have got the breit during the taping of the season as when I noticed it he was at the beach playing with his kid and 2 or 3 times he gave it a shake and looked at it in that kind of "oh wait... is my new toy still ok?" way...

Looks like at this point EL is living up to his spotless reputation...

Interested to see how this pans out... it is indeed important to me to have one with out a chipped face especially if it was part of the agreement... mine is comming from Jay, but I still hope you keep us posted!

Not nearly as high profile a show, but Miami Ink's Ami James (on TLC) appears to be wearing a Breitling - although the band makes me think maybe not... Also in another shot, this looks somewhat Breitling-ish

Sorry to hear you didn't get what you ordered, but would it be possible to post pictures of the watch you did get? It would be interesting to see what others out there are offering up...

This is interesting... I recall hearing about this a long time ago but had totally forgot... So am I correct in thinking this applies for all mechanical watches or is it speicifically for ETA movements? Does this mean if you have a watch that gains, say, 30 seconds a day resulting in a reset every week or two, you end up doing this routine every time?

Well it has to have some moving parts if the hands move... digitals don't have any moving parts... I have a quartz breitling that I popped the back off of and there are gears and things inside... I would assume they would benefit from being jeweled if possible (sadly mine has no jewels).

Is that just a nail file or a triangular file? And doesn't some metal filings get into the watch this way?

@fellfell I see what you are a saying but considering what $200-500 gets me at my local stores reps don't seem too overpriced... For an automatic with decent quality and nice finish at all (even one that doesn't say a famous name) it is not cheap at a store. Of course some price goes to shipping and everyone in the process must make money, so some profits... So yes there is some markup and profit like any other business (in this business quite big markup but it's a relatively small market and somewhat dangerous). I agree that at very low prices the crappy watches may indeed be the best value for the $ becuase you still get a functioning watch for very few $$$ but if that was the desire we would go to our local stores and buy Timex waches for $10. I think part of the value you pay for in reps is indeed having the brand name, as silly as that may be in some lights.

Was she hot?