thewightstuff

i like the original version better. it seems more honest to me somehow...but what do i know. the only time i use PS is to try to see through shirts

id agree that the seadweller is something a little bit more special than the modern sub though you really need to decide which, if any, speaks to you. its your watch. you will need to buy used to get either for 3k range though theres good deals for both. look on timezones sales corner. you can also get the non date modern sub for around 2.4k if you like the clean looks but not the heaviness of the SD.

the best thing to do is go to an AD and try the various watches on and see if any take your fancy. this will really help your decision IMHO. once you know you can look around used and see if the savings are worth it for you.

modern used should come with boxes most of the time and papers always.

as ubi said, none of the modern line are "collectible" in the way that the vintage are. how they will fare value wise in 40 years is impossible to say.

the one bonus is that they can easily be worn daily without any worries the vintage present ref water ingression, damage that may affect originality and thus value, servicing availability etc etc. you also get the latest movements and something new.

if you want something a little more special then as stated, if you hunt around you should be able to get an acrylic crystal, tritium dialed 5513 submariner no date for about 3kish in good condition, though not for much longer and ones at this price are starting to get thin.

you could also consider a GMT vintage. these can be had sub 3K still and are rising along with the rest of the vintage sports models.

any others will be way above your price range. you will be looking about 5k and up.

This is good read on the subject:

http://bjsonline.com/watches/articles/0018_1.shtml

anyone notice the blurb for the 6536/6538. " minute markers to 3pm on the bezel" yet the rolex manual above clearly shows no such markings

interesting note that all 6538 were chrono certified. i didnt know this and had wrongly assumed there were both available on this. this may perhaps suggest this dial at very best a 6536 dial in a 6538 case if it wasnt already loaded with enough other problems

whats more frustrating about that story is that it would appear that theres no definitive answer. some people are accepted, some arent and theres huge variation geographically. perhaps its to do with who still has people trained to work on these.

maybe you were reffered as a quest. the watchmakers institute know the way to atlantis. for all the talk of the rolex heritage division i remain convinced that they have set up offices there, right on main st, though would dearly love to be proven wrong.....

perhaps finding them is the vetting procedure. corporate slogan, "if you build it they will come...."

At the end of the day... It's anyone's outsider guess as to why Rolex does what they do. If anyone knows, it's the people behind the closed doors in Geneva...

aint that the truth...

i remain convinced that they dont even freaking know. ive revised my mental image from boffins in a shed to a weird amalgamation of the chocolate factory and the wizard of oz but all in monochrome

thanks for that. a nice read as always.

its a long way from no longer authenticating dials to not pulling out fake dials though.

my initial thought was indeed sloppy staff however sadly i feel it may be my latter feeling, thats its just a holding off action while rolex withdraw entirely from vintage servicing.

even simple things like replacement bezel inserts for vintage models isnt the same any more and daily the list grows of people refused service work due to age.

looks like the speel regarding rolex being a watch to pass from generation to generation wasnt meant literally

maybe we can hostage their toblerone until they see sense. i have room to store the milk chocolate ones here with me

THis franken is seriously sooo damn good, that not even RSC will realize it's a Franken... I have heard stories about RSC's taking MBW Frankens as gen that had a gen movement...

im not sure how much truth to put in this one. my experience is entirely with vintage pieces but ive yet to see an MBW case, or indeed cases identified as MBW, that had the correct drilling to take a gen movement properly as per the genuine example.

while it may be model dependent, isnt the O-ring also on the wrong side on the MBW ie in the case rather than in the back.

i cant see this passing muster much though perhaps it was with modern versions or a model ive not seen where these arent issues.

What is there to say about the watch?

It's a franken... No doubt. And there are a number of flaws... The pics, to me, tell all.

Dial is not correct.

Hands are not correct.

Bezel assembly is questionable.

Bezel insert is wrong.

Crown does not look genuine to me.

Caseback engraving is performed incorrectly and is inaccurate.

Case is suspect.

Probably more flaws, but those are the ones I noticed immediately.

that makes it a bargain then at 13k, someones going to be very upset.....or perhaps very happy. maybe all that happens at this price level is a more upscale world of rep collecting though i suspect not lol

its one downside of increasing value of vintage watches and rolex in particular. its worth peoples time to cobble together watches from various parts now

get out of town!!!!!!

are you serious that this happenend?

i know that the rumour regarding their lack of enthusiasm for working on vintages was the risk of dial damage and the potential for action if this occurred, especially since they couldnt replace.

just think how bad a red sub would be for them never mind a comex or gen mil sub or heaven forbid..a PN

at first read i thought that to have this flip over and have them not even bother pulling up non gen dials is weird. im now wondering if its perhaps an issue regarding problems identifying, especially given the potential problems should they remove a dial as fake when its not or a more worryingly and probably more likely situation would be to leave them open to potential action by unscrupulous individuals who submit a faked dial watch then claim that they have lost their accurate and valuable gen part.

you hear stories of people losing nice authentic parts at service quite frequently. wouldnt be too much of a stretch so see how some may try to exploit this.

i wonder if this is infact a rearguard action we are seeing. very limited work on vintage models while rolex withdraw completely (while heritige centre is readying its office space in atlantis) or if thats reading too much and it was just some sloppy work at a single RSC

lol,

got the answer i was looking for though by you taking the question the wrong way around.

i was asking if the end links you bought were gen, not the bracelet

anyways, if your SEL bracelet is genuine, then simply sell it off and use the money to buy an non SEL gen bracelet instead or post up for a swap on timezone. nice and simple solution.

Sharp & nice guy, this one just slipped under the radar. No big brother here, I am friends with the guy.

if he didnt notice then i guess he most probably doesnt see many of those watches or take too big in interest. to assume someone is a WIS just because they work on them is sometimes an assumption too far i suppose.

just going by my own experience, i wear either a 5513 or 5512 daily and can sniff a rep a mile away (dodgy pics excepted chrono )

put it in my hand and it becomes laughable.

by big brother, i meant in the orwellian sense. someone from rolex prowling this would loose him his rolex account for parts reading this. you think im joking, lets just say that independents with still active rolex order accounts are thin on the ground and rightly protective of them. one small slip, even selling a bezel insert can loose them their access.

im thinking you could be in some trouble with this one complications abound in my mind over this beyond the obvious hurdles. you are going to need to get the loop piece that goes into the end link from the bracelet and which the spring bar feeds through to hold the bracelet on and short of making one, or butchering a bracelet i cant see how youd get one. butchering a bracelt would make no sense as youd be better using this instead

are they gen end links? not related to your question but what ref did you get?

agree with ubi ref the casebacks. these are all over the place on all rolex from the 60s era and a bit either side. i heard third hand from someone who talked with an ex rolex employee who said one had to understand that when they were making these watches they didnt think that people in 40 years time would be collecting them as antiques and debating minute details. they just wanted to shift metal.

makes a nice change to the standard rolex answer of, "what do you mean ref inside the caseback, only RSC should ever see inside this"

ref this watch you are considering, without seeing it i would still say walk away at that price. its too much for a watch with disjointed history...or potential to have atleast, especially since without wanting to offend you seem to have a bit of learning to do about these before you are a fully armed customer.

you dont seem to fully follow even the situation with gilt and non gilt dials for example and havent pointed out the most basic of questions which should have been at the top of the list ie. matte or gloss?, meters first? submariner top or bottom? tritium or not? matching hands and dial? . i paid significantly less (and we are talking a lot here) for a first year issue, all genuine 5513 with cal 1520 in excellent condition from a dealer.

id strongly suggest waiting, researching more, especially on timezone (boring for discussion but a myriad of pics and info) and then taking a leap. you will be glad you did with the benefit of being more informed i can assure you. throwing this value on a watch will most likely only end in disappointment as you learn more

not sure where you are in the euro zone but www.r-l-x.de is a great place for info too.

no that im doubting you but i find it incredible that anyone who handles rolex (and some other brands aswell) would be fooled when a rep was physically put in their hands.

beyond that, he would in most cases open the watch up unless the only job was an insert replacement at which point it would become spectacularly clear that it wasnt real if it hadnt already.

the only real conclusion is that he knew but didnt mind doing the work. im sure he will love the fact that you said he had worked on reps in the past though

you had better hope big brother isnt watching

heres a quick edit of the cgs on my 5513. case has hardly seen any polishing since its 1962 issue.

i'll take proper pics of both this and my 5512 when im home later in the week if anyones interested in some pics to help them get their cgs closer.

i think you will find that he was making a joke with this.

the only result from actually submitting to RSC for work would be a confiscated watch and a nasty lawyers letter

for the CGs, try removing more material from the outside rather than the inner edge. people always hack away here and open then up too wide and square them off too much when really its the outer where the majority should be removed. they need to be thinner but theres not alot i can think of to reinstate the inner curve on the red sub. the cgs are much closer to the modern subs as i can see from the photos but certainly better than standard thats for sure. a little bit of coaxing should get them even closer id think.

for your 5513, if you plan on keeping it seriously consider looking for a replacement dial. you can get gen ones for the 5513 for a few hundred dollars depending on condition and that will really improve the watch. theres probably some ok rep ones out there too.

ive one of these watches here and the dial is woeful. its nothing like a gen gilt dial but just looks like cheap yellow print before you even get onto the terrible font

with this staying inplace, theres no point doing any other work to the watch IMHO unless you just want to use up spare time. it really is that bad. the crystal could do with a change out too on the 5513.

edited to say, post above was made while i was typing. i didnt just not read it

did you buy this from ebay? if so i think you will find that this is a seller reference and not the rolex one. rolex used 24-700, 24-702 then 24-703 on the subs.

since its triplock then its one of the latter two but the tubes for each are very different.

hopefully you got the modern crown, ref 24-703. the tube for this is 24-7030 and easily attained. the vintage tube is rare & no a/m options

thin one goes between the tube and the case itself.

thicker one goes on the outside to make the seal with the crown inside edge and the two small thick ones go inside the tube to seal the stem

i personally dont think they look all that hot in the close up pics linked, and they certainly look way off with the crowns screwed down in the pic at the top of this post. theres still too much material there and they are too long IMHO. im not convinced by the side views either though heavy polishing could always be used as an explanation for the profile if the rest wasnt over chunky and long

i look at either a 5513 or a 5512 all day depending on what im wearing so perhaps im more accutely sensitive to this than others.

heres some less than spectacular pics of my two. the 5512 still has the 703 crown/tube on it from the RSC so should help give you an idea with your crowns. both now have the original twin locks back on.

the CGs need doing as they are way off however the dials and hands are the big ones for me. id personally spot these a mile off before anything else.

the 5513 dial is terrible in the photo and even worse in the flesh and the hands are too small/short, especially the mercedes end which is tiny compared to the real deal though the minute is too thin also. the 5517 dial is better but not by much.

the red sub is not an area i know much about only having non date vintages but its shouting pretty much the same as the others.

i guess the issue comes down to how much enjoyment you get out of them already, how much from doing work and how close you actually want them to be. this varies from person to person.

if you just want a nice collection of watches to wear on different occasions and have something thats more fun that spending the same amount on the high street then youve already got a nice set there thats for sure. if you enjoy doing bits and pieces yourself then theres certainly scope to do this. what you choose to do is really up to you and where you want to be with them and perhaps more importantly how much you want to spend.

if you want them to actually pass serious muster as the real deal then you need to do alot more to them IMHO. the issue becomes where to draw the line. you could easily spend $2000 dollars getting gen vintage parts and youd have a very accurate rep that would be difficult to tell from a gen however for not much more you could just have a real 5513.

bracelets and end links arent too hard to find though expect to be looking at $500 for the bracelet and $100 or so for the end links.

this is for a 93150 or earlier 9315, if you want to put on a rivet then you are looking around $1000 ish for one in good condition.

vintage inserts are extremely difficult to get hold of, new rolex replacements are pretty tricky even as the rep market has eaten them all up though can still be ordered from an AD. i wouldnt hold your breath on turning up a gen vintage too quickly.

crown, tubes, crystals and spring bars are simple parts to get hold of. these are freely available as are most rolex movement parts . the aesthetic bits are much trickier to find.

lume dots appear on ebay once in a while so you should have more luck finding these.

from a quick look at your reps in that photo, id suggest you concentrate on other areas before fixing these parts. bezel inserts and bracelets are pretty far down the list of showing up a rep, especially that theres many gens on non gen bracelets or with aftermarket inserts.

fair enough,

it would seem to me that the best time to ask would have been before though maybe you did and i misunderstood.

asking while waiting on it arriving was something IMHO that serves not much purpose, even more so in light on both the heated debate, the lack of any question with proper pics posted and i assume physical contact with the watch and your experience. i understand the paypal chargeback but you werent in any danger of expiring with regards to this. waiting the few days would have had little impact and infact prevented any debate at all given the watch itself.

anyways, just MHO. i hope you get alot of joy from the watch. i love my 5513 and 5512

f$&K me,

is that even the same watch. just shows how absolutely atrocious those other pics were. three pages of going back and forth for nothing at all.

theres no question with those two pics.

dont want to sound off but im astounded given some of the info spilled that you didnt just wait till you got the watch and look yourself saving everyone a lot of time and bother. even more so since you have another gen there too. posting pics after inspecting in the flesh and asking if you were still unsure would have been better, just looking against your other watch would have been better still.

hmm,

thats where the edge is on both my domed subs where the domed top and vertical sides meet though its more rounded on this one showing that its been polished off some, or more likely isnt genuine.

the modern ones have a 45 degree plane from this point, about 1.5mm in length before turning with another sharp edge horizontaly across the top with a slight dome in the centre.

this edge is quite considerable and it would take more than polishing to remove this to look like a dome. you would need to consciously grind it down then polish and im not sure the crystal thickness would accomodate properly.

polishing could certainly dull the sharp edges but not to the extent of this as far as i can tell from the photo.

ill get two profile snaps taken to show what i mean

ref the crown logo on the dial. for my money its still too long compared to its width, the slope of the sides and thickness is off for me still when compared to that shown in your comparison photo.

did you read your PMs and have a look at the links therein?

my feeling is that this still doesnt look good in the least however as stated several times. i wouldnt wish a dodgy watch on anyone and hope that its not the case.

i couldnt make out the bevel on the edge which was what i was looking for. maybe i need a new monitor